Gazelle: Flying, operating, buying
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CofA Gazelles
Rumour has it that a couple of Gazelle owners have now gone down the road of getting their ex-military Gazelle's onto a proper CofA.
I have (someone elses) cheque book in my hands at the mo and sniffing around for a Public Cat model. With the big price difference, it would be foolish to go for a Public Cat machine if an ex-military job is now capable of getting on the register properly with just a few thousand spent on it.
Anyone heard or know any more on this??
I have (someone elses) cheque book in my hands at the mo and sniffing around for a Public Cat model. With the big price difference, it would be foolish to go for a Public Cat machine if an ex-military job is now capable of getting on the register properly with just a few thousand spent on it.
Anyone heard or know any more on this??
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"Rumour has it that a couple of Gazelle owners have now gone down the road of getting their ex-military Gazelle's onto a proper CofA."
No and Yes!
No, as far as I'm aware, the UK CAA has not issued a C of A to an ex-Mil Gazelle and has said that it will not do so.
The Gazelle engine has three variants. Only two were type certificated - the Mil variant was not. The CAA refuses to accept that the mil version is simply a variant and will not issue a C of A because (technically) the engine has not been type certificated.
The only way I think an ex-Mil Gazelle could be issued with a UK C of A is by fitting one of the two engine variants which were certified - Mil and civvy Gazelles are are identical in every respect except for the minor variations in engine performance.
Yes, a full C of A has been issued by another ICAO aviation authority which took a more practical view. It accepted they were simply three variants of the same engine, took into account the outstanding safety record of each variant, and issued a C of A. Unfortunately, the UK CAA refused to recognise the foreign C of A, and served notices prohibiting them from flying in UK airspace. I believe that, faced with that obstacle, and the cost of challenging the CAA's decision, the UK owners transferred them to the UK Register and were granted Permits to Fly.
If you are seriously interested, you should speak to Martin Wood of MW Helicopters at Stapleford (01708 688115). MW are the Gazelle specialists and maintain virtually all the Gazelles flying in the UK. Martin Wood has an excellent reputation, and will give you honest advice. Their refurbished Gazelles are absolutely stunning - worth a visit just to see them!
No and Yes!
No, as far as I'm aware, the UK CAA has not issued a C of A to an ex-Mil Gazelle and has said that it will not do so.
The Gazelle engine has three variants. Only two were type certificated - the Mil variant was not. The CAA refuses to accept that the mil version is simply a variant and will not issue a C of A because (technically) the engine has not been type certificated.
The only way I think an ex-Mil Gazelle could be issued with a UK C of A is by fitting one of the two engine variants which were certified - Mil and civvy Gazelles are are identical in every respect except for the minor variations in engine performance.
Yes, a full C of A has been issued by another ICAO aviation authority which took a more practical view. It accepted they were simply three variants of the same engine, took into account the outstanding safety record of each variant, and issued a C of A. Unfortunately, the UK CAA refused to recognise the foreign C of A, and served notices prohibiting them from flying in UK airspace. I believe that, faced with that obstacle, and the cost of challenging the CAA's decision, the UK owners transferred them to the UK Register and were granted Permits to Fly.
If you are seriously interested, you should speak to Martin Wood of MW Helicopters at Stapleford (01708 688115). MW are the Gazelle specialists and maintain virtually all the Gazelles flying in the UK. Martin Wood has an excellent reputation, and will give you honest advice. Their refurbished Gazelles are absolutely stunning - worth a visit just to see them!
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 14th Aug 2002 at 20:31.
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The commonality between the mil engines and the civilian versions is about 98 per cent. The major difference is that while the civilian variant has a 1750hr TBO, the military version is good for 2500 hours.
I am in the process of evaluating one of the 12 military Gazelles currently for sale at London Helicopter Centres at Redhill. I think that notwithstanding Martin Wood's attempts to dance around the CAA with African registrations, it is unlikely that the CAA will see sense and issue Cs of A any time soon. But one day it might happen.
A more pressing indirect question is what happens to the price of the military variant when the Army releases its Gazelles onto the civilian market. This is supposed to begin happening in two or three years. As far as I can gather they have about 100, although how many are whole and flyable I don't know. The pongos will presumably have thrashed seven bells out of them.
The RAF and Navy models at Redhill all have the SAS system (which the Army thought was too limp-wristed) and I suspect they're in better nick than the green ones. But I'd love to be able to see five years into the future.
I am in the process of evaluating one of the 12 military Gazelles currently for sale at London Helicopter Centres at Redhill. I think that notwithstanding Martin Wood's attempts to dance around the CAA with African registrations, it is unlikely that the CAA will see sense and issue Cs of A any time soon. But one day it might happen.
A more pressing indirect question is what happens to the price of the military variant when the Army releases its Gazelles onto the civilian market. This is supposed to begin happening in two or three years. As far as I can gather they have about 100, although how many are whole and flyable I don't know. The pongos will presumably have thrashed seven bells out of them.
The RAF and Navy models at Redhill all have the SAS system (which the Army thought was too limp-wristed) and I suspect they're in better nick than the green ones. But I'd love to be able to see five years into the future.
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Good point about the values of ex-mil Gazelles falling when the Army release theirs. The civvy machines will keep their value. And there's no chance of the CAA admittiing they were wrong and issuing C of A's to the mil machines.
The LHC aren't Gazelle specialists and they haven't got a proven track record. The guy who bought them is an ex-RN observer who bought a load of Gazelles very cheap, but he's only managed to sell two at the most. (Both of them have crashed but maybe that's just a coincidence)
But I'm not surprised he can't sell them. They're way way over-priced for what they are. I looked at them on behalf of a potential buyer. They've had a quick basic make-over and are now on sale for 3 or 4 times what they were bought for at the auction. I advised my client to talk to Martin Wood at MW Helis. No, I don't work for them and I havben't bought one from them, but I know four people who've bought restored civvy models from them. They're all very happy and all recommend MW - probably because they haven't had to spend a penny on them apart from 50 hour checks.
The cheapest way to get yourself a good ex-mil Gazelle is to buy one yourself at the auction (with advice from someone who knows Gazelles) and then get MW Helicopters to do the necessary to get it on the civil register.
The next best way if you don't want to wait too long is to see when MW can supply one.
Best of all, if you've got the money, one of MW's restored civvy machines is the way to go - they're the dogs bollox.
You probably won't get SAS because not many civvy machines had it fitted as an option. But. let's be honest, if you're the sort of pilot who likes Gazelles, you're not going to be bothered about SAS unless you plan to do a lot of instrument flying.
t ain't natural
I know you used to instruct part-time at LHC Redhill so maybe you can get a special deal, but be very careful. Get someone who really knows Gazelles to look at it before you part with your money.
The LHC aren't Gazelle specialists and they haven't got a proven track record. The guy who bought them is an ex-RN observer who bought a load of Gazelles very cheap, but he's only managed to sell two at the most. (Both of them have crashed but maybe that's just a coincidence)
But I'm not surprised he can't sell them. They're way way over-priced for what they are. I looked at them on behalf of a potential buyer. They've had a quick basic make-over and are now on sale for 3 or 4 times what they were bought for at the auction. I advised my client to talk to Martin Wood at MW Helis. No, I don't work for them and I havben't bought one from them, but I know four people who've bought restored civvy models from them. They're all very happy and all recommend MW - probably because they haven't had to spend a penny on them apart from 50 hour checks.
The cheapest way to get yourself a good ex-mil Gazelle is to buy one yourself at the auction (with advice from someone who knows Gazelles) and then get MW Helicopters to do the necessary to get it on the civil register.
The next best way if you don't want to wait too long is to see when MW can supply one.
Best of all, if you've got the money, one of MW's restored civvy machines is the way to go - they're the dogs bollox.
You probably won't get SAS because not many civvy machines had it fitted as an option. But. let's be honest, if you're the sort of pilot who likes Gazelles, you're not going to be bothered about SAS unless you plan to do a lot of instrument flying.
t ain't natural
I know you used to instruct part-time at LHC Redhill so maybe you can get a special deal, but be very careful. Get someone who really knows Gazelles to look at it before you part with your money.
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Hoverman: I have to tell you you are misinformed and wholly wrong about London Helicopter Centres. In fact the 12 Gazelles they have were passed to them by the MoD's disposals company JMC Disposals after a period of evaluation of potential outlets which left several other Gazelle dealers disgruntled.
LHC was chosen by the MoD because it was the first company in the UK to get a Permit to Fly for an ex-military Gazelle and has put more such machines on permits than all other UK operators combined. It has been maintaining Gazelles, civilian and military, for more than a decade, and its chief executive, chief engineer and several other engineers are AAC trained. Its chief pilot has thousands of hours as an AAC and civilian Gazelle instructor and four more of its instructors are experienced on type.
I have instructed there is the past and continue to do so on occasion. I have kept my own helicopter there, and I share the MoD's confidence in the company. I let it go when Flying Lawyer mentioned another operator, but your disparaging remarks cannot go unchallenged. Your statement: 'The LHC aren't Gazelle specialists and they haven't got a proven track record,' is the antithesis of the truth. There is no 'guy who bought them' and there are no more auctions, and MW will find it difficult to obtain any more in the near future. Thanks for the advice, but rest assured, I know someone who 'really knows Gazelles'.
LHC was chosen by the MoD because it was the first company in the UK to get a Permit to Fly for an ex-military Gazelle and has put more such machines on permits than all other UK operators combined. It has been maintaining Gazelles, civilian and military, for more than a decade, and its chief executive, chief engineer and several other engineers are AAC trained. Its chief pilot has thousands of hours as an AAC and civilian Gazelle instructor and four more of its instructors are experienced on type.
I have instructed there is the past and continue to do so on occasion. I have kept my own helicopter there, and I share the MoD's confidence in the company. I let it go when Flying Lawyer mentioned another operator, but your disparaging remarks cannot go unchallenged. Your statement: 'The LHC aren't Gazelle specialists and they haven't got a proven track record,' is the antithesis of the truth. There is no 'guy who bought them' and there are no more auctions, and MW will find it difficult to obtain any more in the near future. Thanks for the advice, but rest assured, I know someone who 'really knows Gazelles'.
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Passing swiftly by the Swazi examples, MW have also been involved in bringing in Gazelles from France - we have six F- ones based in the UK - remember the burgundy one at Duxford? Is there something to be learnt here and what benefits does this have (now or in the future) - JAA certification?
Other people have brought in ones from Eastern Europe - all built in the old Yugoslav SOKO factory and not in France. We have one on a Hungarian HA- reg imported privately (I think) and MD600 driver will know who maintains it as he's mentioned this machine on Rotorheads before now. There are also and two or three on Serbian YU- reg's imported by a guy at Biggin and MW are involved in maintaining at least two of those. We all know these have no hope of a CofA, but what about the purchase cost?
Flightworks imported one from the US and MW took it through to UK CofA stage. Now they've just imported a second N-reg one as well. Not sure whether the intention is to get this through CAA (likely) or keep it on the N reg like lots of other people in the UK.
How do prices compare on these? What other catches are there?
What about the engines? If you put a "good" engine in an ex-mil airframe, would the CAA accept it? Is there a market in these engines?
Wouldn't it be easy for the CAA to just slap the 1750TBO on the military engine and be done with it? Don't go there!
Other people have brought in ones from Eastern Europe - all built in the old Yugoslav SOKO factory and not in France. We have one on a Hungarian HA- reg imported privately (I think) and MD600 driver will know who maintains it as he's mentioned this machine on Rotorheads before now. There are also and two or three on Serbian YU- reg's imported by a guy at Biggin and MW are involved in maintaining at least two of those. We all know these have no hope of a CofA, but what about the purchase cost?
Flightworks imported one from the US and MW took it through to UK CofA stage. Now they've just imported a second N-reg one as well. Not sure whether the intention is to get this through CAA (likely) or keep it on the N reg like lots of other people in the UK.
How do prices compare on these? What other catches are there?
What about the engines? If you put a "good" engine in an ex-mil airframe, would the CAA accept it? Is there a market in these engines?
Wouldn't it be easy for the CAA to just slap the 1750TBO on the military engine and be done with it? Don't go there!
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taint natural
Don't be so testy. The bit I added to you was just trying to help you.
The part about the ex-RN observer guy is the only part which is heresay - it's what I remember from an article in Pilot mag which my client brought along. There was lots of stuff about this guy who is ex-RN and then worked for the Fisheries Board or something.
I stand by everything else I said. I think the Redhill Gazelles are way over-priced for what you get. I don't know who first put an ex-mil Gazelle on a Permit and I don't doubt LHC are competent, but MW have sold more Gazelles than anybody else, and they maintain almost every Gazelle in the UK. I think that's a good indication, though all their customers could be wrong I suppose.
Anyway I didn't mean to start a MW Helicopters v LHC debate. Sunnysideup asked for views and I gave the ones I honestly hold. He's free to reject my advice and follow yours.
But it is a fact that despite massive publicity and sales promotion events LHC can't sell theirs. And it is a fact that they've only sold two. Perhaps you'll make it three.
Good Luck whatever way you go.
Don't be so testy. The bit I added to you was just trying to help you.
The part about the ex-RN observer guy is the only part which is heresay - it's what I remember from an article in Pilot mag which my client brought along. There was lots of stuff about this guy who is ex-RN and then worked for the Fisheries Board or something.
I stand by everything else I said. I think the Redhill Gazelles are way over-priced for what you get. I don't know who first put an ex-mil Gazelle on a Permit and I don't doubt LHC are competent, but MW have sold more Gazelles than anybody else, and they maintain almost every Gazelle in the UK. I think that's a good indication, though all their customers could be wrong I suppose.
Anyway I didn't mean to start a MW Helicopters v LHC debate. Sunnysideup asked for views and I gave the ones I honestly hold. He's free to reject my advice and follow yours.
But it is a fact that despite massive publicity and sales promotion events LHC can't sell theirs. And it is a fact that they've only sold two. Perhaps you'll make it three.
Good Luck whatever way you go.
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Hoverman:
That's not testy. Someday I'll show you testy.
I know about the Pilot magazine article, having written it. I know the ex-RN observer and I know how much he paid, and how much he sold on for. I know the prices of each 'overpriced' Gazelle currently with LHC (do you?). I don't want to do MW down, but don't do LHC down either. Your accusation that they're incapable of selling these machines is just tosh. The sale is nothing to do with LHC - it's entirely down to JCM. LHC was chosen for their expertise and track record with military Gazelles. Very little of what you told your client would seem to hold water.
That's not testy. Someday I'll show you testy.
I know about the Pilot magazine article, having written it. I know the ex-RN observer and I know how much he paid, and how much he sold on for. I know the prices of each 'overpriced' Gazelle currently with LHC (do you?). I don't want to do MW down, but don't do LHC down either. Your accusation that they're incapable of selling these machines is just tosh. The sale is nothing to do with LHC - it's entirely down to JCM. LHC was chosen for their expertise and track record with military Gazelles. Very little of what you told your client would seem to hold water.
Last edited by t'aint natural; 15th Aug 2002 at 18:43.
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Blimey! I was trying to be conciliatory. 
I only know the prices of the Gazelles my client was considering. They were over-priced. Perhaps they had some other ones that were better value for money that they didn't offer him. Seems odd, but anything's possible.
If you're saying LHC have sold/maintained as many Gazelles as MW then that's baloney.
I can't see the problem.
You're connected with LHC and think their Gazelles are good value for money. I'm not connected in any way shape or form with them, and I don't. I went as an independent adviser.
You're connected with LHC and think they are good. I'm not and I think they're OK, but I think MW Helicopters with which I'm not connected offer better machines and better value for money.
We disagree - no big deal.
You think what I've said is tosh. Fine. That's your right.
I'm only glad the many clients I've advised about heli purchases over many years don't think I talk tosh. They come back again, and send other people to me for advice.
It's up to you whether you think it's significant that MW Helicopters always gets rave reviews on the forum and everywhere else. They seem to be recommended by everybody. Having been there, seen their set-up and their Gazelles, and met Martin Woods, I can see why MW has such a good reputation.
But it's only a point of view and,l as you say, may be tosh.
This will probably make you testy, but you do seem to have an axe to grind for LHC. I don't for anyone and tell it like I see it.
I only know the prices of the Gazelles my client was considering. They were over-priced. Perhaps they had some other ones that were better value for money that they didn't offer him. Seems odd, but anything's possible.
If you're saying LHC have sold/maintained as many Gazelles as MW then that's baloney.
I can't see the problem.
You're connected with LHC and think their Gazelles are good value for money. I'm not connected in any way shape or form with them, and I don't. I went as an independent adviser.
You're connected with LHC and think they are good. I'm not and I think they're OK, but I think MW Helicopters with which I'm not connected offer better machines and better value for money.
We disagree - no big deal.
You think what I've said is tosh. Fine. That's your right.
I'm only glad the many clients I've advised about heli purchases over many years don't think I talk tosh. They come back again, and send other people to me for advice.
It's up to you whether you think it's significant that MW Helicopters always gets rave reviews on the forum and everywhere else. They seem to be recommended by everybody. Having been there, seen their set-up and their Gazelles, and met Martin Woods, I can see why MW has such a good reputation.
But it's only a point of view and,l as you say, may be tosh.
This will probably make you testy, but you do seem to have an axe to grind for LHC. I don't for anyone and tell it like I see it.
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Maybe the CAA are actually doing us all a favor here!
200 public transport C of A, five place, single turbine machines hitting the market at rock bottom prices in the space of a few years, would certainly dent the value of your lovingly (read: expensively) maintained Jetranger or Hughes 500! How many people would that please?
A multitude of newly formed and equipped charter operators would certainly wreak havoc throughout the established charter industry.
Sales of new and used turbine machines from other manufacturers could just about stop overnight.
Maybe the ex mil. Gazelles are better kept as a niche toy for those who can afford to fly them just for pleasure.
200 public transport C of A, five place, single turbine machines hitting the market at rock bottom prices in the space of a few years, would certainly dent the value of your lovingly (read: expensively) maintained Jetranger or Hughes 500! How many people would that please?
A multitude of newly formed and equipped charter operators would certainly wreak havoc throughout the established charter industry.
Sales of new and used turbine machines from other manufacturers could just about stop overnight.
Maybe the ex mil. Gazelles are better kept as a niche toy for those who can afford to fly them just for pleasure.
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CA....
The transmission input speed is around 6180 RPM.
For info on the engine speed and engine reduction gearbox ratio, see:
http://www2.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...F?OpenDocument
The transmission input speed is around 6180 RPM.
For info on the engine speed and engine reduction gearbox ratio, see:
http://www2.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...F?OpenDocument
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Hoverman: Have a quick glance at your previous posts. Your assertions are uninformed and false, and the idea that you should be dispensing advice, based on such manifest ignorance, is deeply disquieting.
You're clearly confusing Kevin Brigden's Gazelles with those offered by JCM. You ought to know the difference. Are you really telling people that 'LHC have no track record with Gazelles', when the MoD's decision to use them was based on their track record?
Are you really telling your clients that 'the cheapest way to get yourself a good ex-mil Gazelle is to buy one yourself at auction'? No such auctions exist.
How can you say LHC 'can't sell theirs despite massive promotion' when LHC aren't selling them and they've only been on offer by JCM for a little over a month?
Are you really loudly proclaiming that they're overpriced when you have no idea how much they cost?
I am aware that MW are excellent in every respect, and those Gazelle owners I know who bought there are in the main highly satisfied. But too often we see boosterism coupled with casual denigration of others. The kind of sneering you do, as in 'both of them have crashed but maybe that's just a coincidence' (don't you know? If not, find out) is useless.
You're clearly confusing Kevin Brigden's Gazelles with those offered by JCM. You ought to know the difference. Are you really telling people that 'LHC have no track record with Gazelles', when the MoD's decision to use them was based on their track record?
Are you really telling your clients that 'the cheapest way to get yourself a good ex-mil Gazelle is to buy one yourself at auction'? No such auctions exist.
How can you say LHC 'can't sell theirs despite massive promotion' when LHC aren't selling them and they've only been on offer by JCM for a little over a month?
Are you really loudly proclaiming that they're overpriced when you have no idea how much they cost?
I am aware that MW are excellent in every respect, and those Gazelle owners I know who bought there are in the main highly satisfied. But too often we see boosterism coupled with casual denigration of others. The kind of sneering you do, as in 'both of them have crashed but maybe that's just a coincidence' (don't you know? If not, find out) is useless.
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Thanks Rotormatic.
You other guys have me scratching my head. I have a pretty good BS meter but this long distance clouds it, I guess.
I did email MW and they never replied. Are they out of ex-mil machines now? Thanks,
Clayton
You other guys have me scratching my head. I have a pretty good BS meter but this long distance clouds it, I guess.
I did email MW and they never replied. Are they out of ex-mil machines now? Thanks,
Clayton
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Wow.
I thought that this was a simple question. I didn't mean to start a sla&&ing match between supporters of MW and LHC.
Reading through to the pertanent points, I thank you for your views on my real concern. ie. Getting a Public cat one now, for use by a TRTO for training and charter, only to find I've lost the investors money because the CAA suddenly see sense (unlikely, I know) and allow ex-mil machines to go on public cat.
For the record, Martin at MW has been extremely helpful and prompt with his replies to my queries. I have more information from him than I normally get from fixed-wing people selling aircraft.
I just learnt a long time ago not to rely solely on the advice of the people actually selling an aircraft. No slur on the character of the vendors involved.
Flightworks have also proved extremely useful in their knowledge, experience and advice.
I've yet to talk to LHC, so I can't comment.
I thought that this was a simple question. I didn't mean to start a sla&&ing match between supporters of MW and LHC.
Reading through to the pertanent points, I thank you for your views on my real concern. ie. Getting a Public cat one now, for use by a TRTO for training and charter, only to find I've lost the investors money because the CAA suddenly see sense (unlikely, I know) and allow ex-mil machines to go on public cat.
For the record, Martin at MW has been extremely helpful and prompt with his replies to my queries. I have more information from him than I normally get from fixed-wing people selling aircraft.
I just learnt a long time ago not to rely solely on the advice of the people actually selling an aircraft. No slur on the character of the vendors involved.
Flightworks have also proved extremely useful in their knowledge, experience and advice.
I've yet to talk to LHC, so I can't comment.
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sunnysideup
I don't think the CAA will ever issue C of A's for the ex-mil Gazelles. They've already said they won't be doing so because the engine variant in the mil versions wasn't type certificated. Technically (extremely technically) that is correct and the CAA has made it's final decision on the point. Stopping the Swazi C of A machines flying in UK airspace was harsh (and very petty in many people's view) but it's a clear indication they are not open to argument/discussion.
As you've seen, there's more than one source of Gazelles and more than one opinion. I agree independent recommendations are very useful because all retailers claim their deal is best.
Advice about buying Gazelles is a frequent topic on Rotorheads. If it's any help to you, I've not seen anything bad about any of the dealers, but it's fair to say MW Helicopters consistently gets the most enthusiastic recommendations not only for the quality of their Gazelles but for maintenance, customer support and training.
Heliport
I don't think the CAA will ever issue C of A's for the ex-mil Gazelles. They've already said they won't be doing so because the engine variant in the mil versions wasn't type certificated. Technically (extremely technically) that is correct and the CAA has made it's final decision on the point. Stopping the Swazi C of A machines flying in UK airspace was harsh (and very petty in many people's view) but it's a clear indication they are not open to argument/discussion.
As you've seen, there's more than one source of Gazelles and more than one opinion. I agree independent recommendations are very useful because all retailers claim their deal is best.
Advice about buying Gazelles is a frequent topic on Rotorheads. If it's any help to you, I've not seen anything bad about any of the dealers, but it's fair to say MW Helicopters consistently gets the most enthusiastic recommendations not only for the quality of their Gazelles but for maintenance, customer support and training.
Heliport
Last edited by Heliport; 19th Aug 2002 at 15:58.