Cattle Mustering incl Training, Job Prospects (!) etc etc
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Just to add to the previous list, a mustering pilot from Rolleston in QLD was killed two days ago when his R22 crashed whilst mustering.
THE small town of Rolleston has been rocked by the death of grazier Russell Parker in a helicopter crash on a private property near Mt Ogg yesterday.
Members of the close-knit community have confirmed their shock at the tragedy.
The 39-year-old father of four young daughters, whose family has a long association with the area, was mustering cattle about 32 km west of Rolleston.
His family lost contact with him about 10am yesterday.
They began a search on horse back.
Matthew Brandon from the RACQ Rescue Helicopter yesterday said they and another aircraft carrying a police officer found the wreckage about 65km west of Rolleston.
An intensive care paramedic was winched down to a nearby creek bed and the pilot was declared dead at the scene.
A police media spokeswoman said the pilot was the sole occupant of the helicopter.
Police returned to the scene at first light this morning.
A worker at the Rolleston Hotel said the pilot was a “very well-respected” community member, who had been involved in almost 8anything to help the small town.
“He was very community-minded. Everyone knew him, he grew up in the area and was very well-respected,” she said.
“It’s shocked the whole community.”
Gladstone Observer
THE small town of Rolleston has been rocked by the death of grazier Russell Parker in a helicopter crash on a private property near Mt Ogg yesterday.
Members of the close-knit community have confirmed their shock at the tragedy.
The 39-year-old father of four young daughters, whose family has a long association with the area, was mustering cattle about 32 km west of Rolleston.
His family lost contact with him about 10am yesterday.
They began a search on horse back.
Matthew Brandon from the RACQ Rescue Helicopter yesterday said they and another aircraft carrying a police officer found the wreckage about 65km west of Rolleston.
An intensive care paramedic was winched down to a nearby creek bed and the pilot was declared dead at the scene.
A police media spokeswoman said the pilot was the sole occupant of the helicopter.
Police returned to the scene at first light this morning.
A worker at the Rolleston Hotel said the pilot was a “very well-respected” community member, who had been involved in almost 8anything to help the small town.
“He was very community-minded. Everyone knew him, he grew up in the area and was very well-respected,” she said.
“It’s shocked the whole community.”
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Yes the “locally respected father and husband” bit came up on the headlines bit of the ABC news webpage when it was first reported.
The bit about the no license I wonder as I heard that he had a brand new PHL, like three weeks old. I don’t know about a Low Level or Mustering bit or indeed how many hours PIC to achieve same.
From the rescue pilots comments on ABC one can read that it was not the easiest of terrain for any pilot to be working in, let alone one who is utterly in-experienced.
Lots of questions could be asked. Starting from the training schools ability, the ATO’s judgement, the authorising person on the day, the, ----= and the list goes on. I also got to hear that there may have been a major demonstration of manipulative skill shortcoming during this person's training. I.E. major over speed. Thereby rest two more training school questions, one-recognition of Gov switch ON-OFF and two but more importantly -how to handle what should be regarded as a fallible system before solo.
I mean how many times we read in these columns of Bell 206 governors and others, going AWOL, the light could be on or off, but someone must be at home.
But more importantly a question if that is true, what standard does a student sink to before it is recommended to him (nicely) that he is out of his depth? Possibly that depends upon how deep the poor unfortunate students pockets are. If that was the case how swiftly should the regulatory body become involved?
I heard also a rumour that he may have been working for his brother, who owns helicopter?/s? .. Working?? Commercial?? As a Private licensee.
But then that may be confused with another helicopter operator in roughly the same area or a bit north of there who had also a brother, but this one who was fixed wing rated only and reckoned that flying these R44 things was p**s easy. Which he took license, [sic] to do for about twenty yards to a spectacular conclusion. That outfit may also be under a cloud of investigation re AOC or not and illegal airwork/charter, so the whole unlicensed bit may be confused between the two, I don’t know.
The rest of the world must really be wondering about just how this industry regulates itself or indeed if we have any regulations. I know we do as I not long ago amended many book full’s of them. I don't know how many others have those books. ??
Perhaps Gordy’s illuminating and helpful discussion regarding “human factors” is set at another level well above the bar of sections of the oz mustering and training–human- factor.
Yes - perhaps the luckless individual did not in his lack of experience see what could be later viewed as good/bad judgement, but remember this; he has a family who will need to maintain their mantle of their father figure and it would be wise to consider many other factors prior to any direct criticism. The prevailing conditions at the site would be high on the list.
The main thing now is to protect others who may be so easily similarly affected. Very disappointing I must say the whole damn deal.
tet
The bit about the no license I wonder as I heard that he had a brand new PHL, like three weeks old. I don’t know about a Low Level or Mustering bit or indeed how many hours PIC to achieve same.
From the rescue pilots comments on ABC one can read that it was not the easiest of terrain for any pilot to be working in, let alone one who is utterly in-experienced.
Lots of questions could be asked. Starting from the training schools ability, the ATO’s judgement, the authorising person on the day, the, ----= and the list goes on. I also got to hear that there may have been a major demonstration of manipulative skill shortcoming during this person's training. I.E. major over speed. Thereby rest two more training school questions, one-recognition of Gov switch ON-OFF and two but more importantly -how to handle what should be regarded as a fallible system before solo.
I mean how many times we read in these columns of Bell 206 governors and others, going AWOL, the light could be on or off, but someone must be at home.
But more importantly a question if that is true, what standard does a student sink to before it is recommended to him (nicely) that he is out of his depth? Possibly that depends upon how deep the poor unfortunate students pockets are. If that was the case how swiftly should the regulatory body become involved?
I heard also a rumour that he may have been working for his brother, who owns helicopter?/s? .. Working?? Commercial?? As a Private licensee.
But then that may be confused with another helicopter operator in roughly the same area or a bit north of there who had also a brother, but this one who was fixed wing rated only and reckoned that flying these R44 things was p**s easy. Which he took license, [sic] to do for about twenty yards to a spectacular conclusion. That outfit may also be under a cloud of investigation re AOC or not and illegal airwork/charter, so the whole unlicensed bit may be confused between the two, I don’t know.
The rest of the world must really be wondering about just how this industry regulates itself or indeed if we have any regulations. I know we do as I not long ago amended many book full’s of them. I don't know how many others have those books. ??
Perhaps Gordy’s illuminating and helpful discussion regarding “human factors” is set at another level well above the bar of sections of the oz mustering and training–human- factor.
Yes - perhaps the luckless individual did not in his lack of experience see what could be later viewed as good/bad judgement, but remember this; he has a family who will need to maintain their mantle of their father figure and it would be wise to consider many other factors prior to any direct criticism. The prevailing conditions at the site would be high on the list.
The main thing now is to protect others who may be so easily similarly affected. Very disappointing I must say the whole damn deal.
tet
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Mr bellfest has identified himself as a critic of the above posts. so i say to you Mr Bellfest, I am waiting to see whether you will come over here and identify yourself as way too close to the action of this unfortunate accident or that you know nothing about any of the suggestions or mustering and therefore should retract and shut up.
or you may have some very constructive ideas as to how things could be improved to stamp out and avoid identified suggestions as above.
he says we make him ill, well green horn, nowhere near as ill as some affected innocents I'll bet.
all the best to you bellfest,
now, walk the talk.
tet.
or you may have some very constructive ideas as to how things could be improved to stamp out and avoid identified suggestions as above.
he says we make him ill, well green horn, nowhere near as ill as some affected innocents I'll bet.
all the best to you bellfest,
now, walk the talk.
tet.
I'm not getting into something ugly here. I'm going to say my piece and leave it at that......
Firstly yes, as you have stated I am definitely a critic of the above posts. I don't think this is the place to jump on and make 'guesses' about what has happened in accidents well out of our reach. That includes airing rumours about the individuals involved and effected, the cause of the accident and many different factors that have led to it. There is no way anyone can know and I don't think it's fair or appropriate to theorise on a public forum... Talk about it with your mates as you will but leave it off here. There are projects and people in place to investigate these things and though we could all have our say about how that could be done better at the end of the day they generally do a pretty good job... Not ideal and even possibly not always correct but it is what it is....
Secondly, suggesting my comment on the other thread was indicating my 'laughter' had anything to do with the subject matter and not at the behaviour the poster's doesn't really even warrant a reply.... But I guess I just did!
Thirdly, I have no connection with this accident at all. I do however have vast experience with R22's, mustering and the cattle industry as I was born into it and spent a large part of my life involved in every aspect of all of it. And I do to this day in many shapes and forms. I think 20+ years in the helicopter industry graduates me out of green horn status...
I also know a lot about many other aspects of the helicopter industry having done a vast amount of flying and other things helicopter related in a vast amount of places in a vast amount of machinery.... I don't claim to be an authority on it but I am far less one dimensional than someone who has spent their entire career in one field of the industry.....
I acknowledge that you have an active brain and therefore an active interest in events within this industry. That is not something that I would have a go at you about as every mind has something to contribute... Your choice of medium and your lack of data is what I was having a go at.....
Finally, I am annoyed with myself for becoming involved in what I normally turn my nose up by even replying to this post. I do however think I did have to walk the talk as you said and that is about as much walk as I have... I am very fond of the mustering industry as it gave me my foundation and to this day I believe that some of the best hands on pilots have started in that game.... It is a completely different industry to what I knew it as and the obvious aspects of accessibility to aircraft, poor training born of no company foundation and experience and the all too important aspect of aviating that has been so sorely abandoned in so many areas amongst that industry is rendering it a very poor example of aviation.
Someone could do quite well by educating those that place the R22 in the same category as the HSZ75 Toyota Land Cruiser and offering their services to get these people up to speed and back into more of an aviation mindset. Bring a portion of the Ray Bands back into it if you will.... That would be quite a task but it is up to the industry to repair the industry.
CASA and the ATSB have a lot to answer for in their blatant disregard for private operators. They should be more accountable for their actions. They should be required to aviate as proficiently as anyone else who takes to the skies as truth be known, if a lot of them could fly an auto or a jammed pedal half as well as they can fly through a loop hole in the system the industry would be a much safer place. Farming AOC's, hanging off the annex of a contracting arrangements and negating accountability for ignoring everything that is in place to make aviating safe should be stamped.... That would be a great start!
Firstly yes, as you have stated I am definitely a critic of the above posts. I don't think this is the place to jump on and make 'guesses' about what has happened in accidents well out of our reach. That includes airing rumours about the individuals involved and effected, the cause of the accident and many different factors that have led to it. There is no way anyone can know and I don't think it's fair or appropriate to theorise on a public forum... Talk about it with your mates as you will but leave it off here. There are projects and people in place to investigate these things and though we could all have our say about how that could be done better at the end of the day they generally do a pretty good job... Not ideal and even possibly not always correct but it is what it is....
Secondly, suggesting my comment on the other thread was indicating my 'laughter' had anything to do with the subject matter and not at the behaviour the poster's doesn't really even warrant a reply.... But I guess I just did!
Thirdly, I have no connection with this accident at all. I do however have vast experience with R22's, mustering and the cattle industry as I was born into it and spent a large part of my life involved in every aspect of all of it. And I do to this day in many shapes and forms. I think 20+ years in the helicopter industry graduates me out of green horn status...
I also know a lot about many other aspects of the helicopter industry having done a vast amount of flying and other things helicopter related in a vast amount of places in a vast amount of machinery.... I don't claim to be an authority on it but I am far less one dimensional than someone who has spent their entire career in one field of the industry.....
I acknowledge that you have an active brain and therefore an active interest in events within this industry. That is not something that I would have a go at you about as every mind has something to contribute... Your choice of medium and your lack of data is what I was having a go at.....
Finally, I am annoyed with myself for becoming involved in what I normally turn my nose up by even replying to this post. I do however think I did have to walk the talk as you said and that is about as much walk as I have... I am very fond of the mustering industry as it gave me my foundation and to this day I believe that some of the best hands on pilots have started in that game.... It is a completely different industry to what I knew it as and the obvious aspects of accessibility to aircraft, poor training born of no company foundation and experience and the all too important aspect of aviating that has been so sorely abandoned in so many areas amongst that industry is rendering it a very poor example of aviation.
Someone could do quite well by educating those that place the R22 in the same category as the HSZ75 Toyota Land Cruiser and offering their services to get these people up to speed and back into more of an aviation mindset. Bring a portion of the Ray Bands back into it if you will.... That would be quite a task but it is up to the industry to repair the industry.
CASA and the ATSB have a lot to answer for in their blatant disregard for private operators. They should be more accountable for their actions. They should be required to aviate as proficiently as anyone else who takes to the skies as truth be known, if a lot of them could fly an auto or a jammed pedal half as well as they can fly through a loop hole in the system the industry would be a much safer place. Farming AOC's, hanging off the annex of a contracting arrangements and negating accountability for ignoring everything that is in place to make aviating safe should be stamped.... That would be a great start!
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Nothing like some good o'l 47 pic's, Brings back memories.
After reading the last two posts by tet and bellfest I am compelled to appologise for placing the post about this accident in the first instance. Reports of the pilot being unlicenced made my blood boil and I threw it out there in the hope that it couldn't be true. I am not directly involved in the mustering industry any more, but I spent a good decade and a half as a mustering pilot, even considered myself as a profesional in my field and it makes me sick to see something like this happen.. Mud sticks and it will be lumped into the mustering ( accident basket ) no matter how far removed from the norm it may have been.
You only have to see how these cowboy's treat their landcruisers in the stock camps to know that a lot of them should be kept as far away from a helicopter as you can. Mustering used to be conducted profesionaly by large company's who had good check and training, and mentoring programes, which enabled pilots to be trained in a profeesional manner not only to be competent musterers but good aviators as well.
After reading the last two posts by tet and bellfest I am compelled to appologise for placing the post about this accident in the first instance. Reports of the pilot being unlicenced made my blood boil and I threw it out there in the hope that it couldn't be true. I am not directly involved in the mustering industry any more, but I spent a good decade and a half as a mustering pilot, even considered myself as a profesional in my field and it makes me sick to see something like this happen.. Mud sticks and it will be lumped into the mustering ( accident basket ) no matter how far removed from the norm it may have been.
You only have to see how these cowboy's treat their landcruisers in the stock camps to know that a lot of them should be kept as far away from a helicopter as you can. Mustering used to be conducted profesionaly by large company's who had good check and training, and mentoring programes, which enabled pilots to be trained in a profeesional manner not only to be competent musterers but good aviators as well.
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Very nice piccy's Earl. I daresay I wouldn't like to be paying for the damage that was being thrown up. Here is a pretty ordinary photo of 2 other pilots doing much the same thing.
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.. I wouldn't like to be paying for the damage that was being thrown up ..
And btw, did you know that there is an alcoholic beverage produced in Uganda, Africa which bears a similar name to your username! It is reputedly lethal!
Earl
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I hope that stuff tastes good,
being very close up to fast moving animals like that, particularly horses can result in blade and bubble damage from the lumps of dirt and stones and debris thrown up from the hooves.
next time you see the horse races on tv take notice of how much is thrown up, its astounding.
being very close up to fast moving animals like that, particularly horses can result in blade and bubble damage from the lumps of dirt and stones and debris thrown up from the hooves.
next time you see the horse races on tv take notice of how much is thrown up, its astounding.
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As this is a rumour network its probably the place to ask.
Considering the current thread regarding a potentialy unlicenced pilot I recall hearing a rumour about a pilot flying for one of the Television stations in Sydney. The story goes that this chap had been taught to fly by his mates in NZ as they worked on deer recovery. He became very good and worked commercially in NZ and eventually moved to Australia and progressed along nicely until coming unstuck after a few years of flying for a Sydney television station when someone decided they needed to sight licences. I heard this about 1980 I think.
It wil be very disappointing if the same sort of thing is true of the poor guy discussed here, I would guess its probably a simpler explanation such as no Low Level endorsement or Mustering endorsement.
Considering the current thread regarding a potentialy unlicenced pilot I recall hearing a rumour about a pilot flying for one of the Television stations in Sydney. The story goes that this chap had been taught to fly by his mates in NZ as they worked on deer recovery. He became very good and worked commercially in NZ and eventually moved to Australia and progressed along nicely until coming unstuck after a few years of flying for a Sydney television station when someone decided they needed to sight licences. I heard this about 1980 I think.
It wil be very disappointing if the same sort of thing is true of the poor guy discussed here, I would guess its probably a simpler explanation such as no Low Level endorsement or Mustering endorsement.
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thanks earl, where do your snaps come from? looks like a 3B1, tried to blow the first photo a bit closer and it does appear to be an oil tank on the near side with no exhaust that side and high console. also interesting to note the texas no-bar kit. not smart to have two up when mustering horses IMHO even with 285hp.
warrageee where was your photo taken and what are you chasing, and what is that shape between / behind the two machines but near or on ground level. Looks like the front half of the last wreck??
thanks ag R and Bellfest, all noted, sometimes one needs to be "one dimensional" to be "master of a trade", rather "jack of none," or put another way, dabbling with just enough knowledge in each field to be dangerous, in reality.
re the farming of the AOC, I have been a receiver and a donator of the famous 'use of' such instrument in the past.
Knowing what I know now about the correct way to legalise a multi user AOC i shudder and am thankful that nothing went wrong way back when.
There are actually people who want to "do the right thing' and insure themselves by working under someone else's AOC when they don't have the time or knowledge to construct one for themselves, nothing wrong with that, better than them saying, 'Oh, I am just a contractor mustering cattle with my own machine'.
Heaps do it illegaly without the tie-up documents and continuous paper trail, i know, but wait until things go pear shaped. A multi user AOC is a better system than the big company where machines are all owned by the one entity, where you have pilots who don't have anywhere near the same responsibility level when they are on wages than when they are flying their own machine.
There's another side to that as well and it's the peer pressure fact that if one stuffs up then they stuff it for everyone, not like wage earners who can simply gravitate to another company when one company has a problem and leave the investment and the mess with the poor bloody owner. Think about it.
cheers tet.
warrageee where was your photo taken and what are you chasing, and what is that shape between / behind the two machines but near or on ground level. Looks like the front half of the last wreck??
thanks ag R and Bellfest, all noted, sometimes one needs to be "one dimensional" to be "master of a trade", rather "jack of none," or put another way, dabbling with just enough knowledge in each field to be dangerous, in reality.
re the farming of the AOC, I have been a receiver and a donator of the famous 'use of' such instrument in the past.
Knowing what I know now about the correct way to legalise a multi user AOC i shudder and am thankful that nothing went wrong way back when.
There are actually people who want to "do the right thing' and insure themselves by working under someone else's AOC when they don't have the time or knowledge to construct one for themselves, nothing wrong with that, better than them saying, 'Oh, I am just a contractor mustering cattle with my own machine'.
Heaps do it illegaly without the tie-up documents and continuous paper trail, i know, but wait until things go pear shaped. A multi user AOC is a better system than the big company where machines are all owned by the one entity, where you have pilots who don't have anywhere near the same responsibility level when they are on wages than when they are flying their own machine.
There's another side to that as well and it's the peer pressure fact that if one stuffs up then they stuff it for everyone, not like wage earners who can simply gravitate to another company when one company has a problem and leave the investment and the mess with the poor bloody owner. Think about it.
cheers tet.
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~ TopEnd!
The first photo is of a 47 herding Mustangs in the US. The helicopter (still flown as I understand) is owned and operated by the US Bureau of Land Management. I don't know the model will try and find out.
But .. you are going to get me into trouble if you keep complimenting the photos I post as I'm already in trouble with PPRuNe Towers for my overzealous use of images.
Here you go TopEnd, no pax this time but .. can you blame someone for begging the driver to take them along!
The first photo is of a 47 herding Mustangs in the US. The helicopter (still flown as I understand) is owned and operated by the US Bureau of Land Management. I don't know the model will try and find out.
But .. you are going to get me into trouble if you keep complimenting the photos I post as I'm already in trouble with PPRuNe Towers for my overzealous use of images.
Here you go TopEnd, no pax this time but .. can you blame someone for begging the driver to take them along!
Last edited by Earl of Rochester; 7th Jun 2013 at 14:32.
The 'brumby's in Aus must surely wonder 'what the heck' when they see...
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Earl,
You certainly have a gift at using/scourcing photos. Great stuff.
TET,
The thing on the ground is just a turkey bush looking a bit stressed.
The brumbys are in the yard, this was in the western gulf without being too specific. I think about 400 were yarded at this yard and over 2 years around 3000 altogether into permanent and portable yards. All brumbys.
You would have chased a few yourself no doubt and would understand how difficult they can be.
You certainly have a gift at using/scourcing photos. Great stuff.
TET,
The thing on the ground is just a turkey bush looking a bit stressed.
The brumbys are in the yard, this was in the western gulf without being too specific. I think about 400 were yarded at this yard and over 2 years around 3000 altogether into permanent and portable yards. All brumbys.
You would have chased a few yourself no doubt and would understand how difficult they can be.