What would you rather have?
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What would you rather have?
"What would you rather have — an SUV that's 20 years old, or an SUV with air bags and antilock brakes?" said Nick Lappos, program chief for Sikorsky."
LA Times feature
LA Times feature
A Dust-Up Over Who'll Build the Next Presidential Chopper
Lockheed, Sikorsky wage a 'fierce' campaign for the next generation of Marine One aircraft
October 31, 2004
It lacks the majesty of Air Force One, the Boeing 747 used by the president to travel the world in style and security. In fact, most Americans probably think of Marine One, the presidential helicopter, as a White House taxi — squatting on the South Lawn, waiting to take the president and his dog on a short hop to Camp David.
But in the aircraft industry, this particular helicopter is a superstar. That's why two corporate defense titans now are vying for the right to build the next generation of Marine Ones.
At stake is a $2-billion contract for up to 23 customized helicopters, as well as bragging rights and a possible springboard to even more lucrative military and civilian markets.
The Navy has promised to decide by mid-December between the bids from Stratford, Conn.-based Sikorsky Aircraft and Lockheed Martin Corp., which has its world headquarters in Bethesda, Md., and much of its aviation operation in New York.
The competition "is starting to resemble the presidential race," said aviation industry analyst Richard Aboulafia. "Determined, fierce, even vicious."
Sikorsky, a pioneer in rotary-winged aircraft development, has provided helicopters for every president since Dwight D. Eisenhower. Lockheed has its own chopper credentials.
The current presidential helicopter from Sikorsky, a VH-3D Sea King, is a medium-lift, all-weather, single-rotor craft with a cruising speed of about 160 mph and range of 690 miles. In an average year, the fleet takes the president on about 150 flights.
Although the Pentagon had planned to seek bids on a new design before Sept. 11, 2001, the terrorist attacks highlighted the need for a helicopter that would allow the president to function as commander in chief at all times.
Most of the bid requirements for the communications gear, weapons systems and safety features are classified. So even in their zeal to tout their designs, Sikorsky and Lockheed executives must be careful in explaining what new capabilities or safety features they will provide for the president and other top-level government executives who use Marine One.
Both sides have implied that their helicopter would give the president the same unrestricted ability to direct troops and speak to allies and enemies that he has on Air Force One.
"What we will provide is an Oval Office in the sky," Lockheed spokesman Mike Drake said. The company's design — similar to Lockheed's Merlin helicopter, which is used by the British Royal Navy and Royal Air Force — has proven its sturdiness in Iraq and Bosnia, Drake said, adding: "This is a battle-proven military helicopter for the commander in chief."
Sikorsky says that the Texas firm that provides the communications system for Air Force One is working with the company on its design and that Lockheed is merely recycling an old copter.
"What would you rather have — an SUV that's 20 years old, or an SUV with air bags and antilock brakes?" said Nick Lappos, program chief for Sikorsky.
Pentagon rules also require that companies and individuals involved in making things for the president's use have an extremely high security clearance. In fact, one military official said that having a "Yankee White" clearance means you've been investigated so thoroughly, "you could have lunch with the president while carrying your 9-millimeter Beretta."
So in the Marine One competition, both sides have asserted their more-American-than-thou credentials. Sikorsky calls its project the All-American VH-92. Lockheed calls its design the US101, a riff on the designation of its Merlin, which is known as EH101.
For Lockheed, getting this security clearance is more of a problem since it has teamed up with its Merlin partner, the English-Italian company AgustaWestland. About a third of its US101 parts and components will be from foreign suppliers, a point Sikorsky has pointed out repeatedly.
In a global economy, having an aircraft — with all its thousands of components and parts — built solely in one country is difficult, if not impossible. For its other helicopters, Sikorsky also uses parts made abroad, although not to the degree Lockheed does.
"You can't really have an All-American helicopter when you're partners with the People's Republic of China," Drake said.
Sikorsky spokesman Ed Steadham said: "There will not be a Chinese supplier for presidential aircraft."
Both sides have played some politics in their bids to win the Marine One contract.
Lawmakers friendly to Sikorsky have spoken on its behalf. A Connecticut congressman called for an investigation into whether Lockheed could meet the Yankee White standard for its subcontractors and suppliers.
But other politicians, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y), have sided with Lockheed. Last year, British Prime Minister Tony Blair contacted the White House to speak favorably of AgustaWestland; last week a British defense department official made the rounds of official Washington to talk up the company and the Merlin.
Although the bidding competition is meant to be "hermetically sealed" from politics, analysts said, nothing in Washington can remain that aloof.
"It could boil down to a Democratic state [Sikorsky] vs. an Iraq war ally [AgustaWestland]," Aboulafia said.
Sikorsky recently took its prototype on tour, including a stop in Washington to give journalists and politicians a ride. The VH-92 is similar to Sikorsky's corporate helicopter — used by, among others, director Steven Spielberg.
Not to be outdone, Lockheed officials signaled the media when one of its Merlins appeared recently in San Diego at the Miramar Marine Corps Air Station air show.
Along with moving troops and supplies, the Merlin is the British military's helicopter of choice for transporting leading politicians and members of royalty. Queen Elizabeth II has flown in a Merlin, Lockheed said.
"Our role is moving everything from toilet seats to prime ministers," Wing Cmdr. Andy Turner said. "Your president should be very comfortable."
Lockheed, Sikorsky wage a 'fierce' campaign for the next generation of Marine One aircraft
October 31, 2004
It lacks the majesty of Air Force One, the Boeing 747 used by the president to travel the world in style and security. In fact, most Americans probably think of Marine One, the presidential helicopter, as a White House taxi — squatting on the South Lawn, waiting to take the president and his dog on a short hop to Camp David.
But in the aircraft industry, this particular helicopter is a superstar. That's why two corporate defense titans now are vying for the right to build the next generation of Marine Ones.
At stake is a $2-billion contract for up to 23 customized helicopters, as well as bragging rights and a possible springboard to even more lucrative military and civilian markets.
The Navy has promised to decide by mid-December between the bids from Stratford, Conn.-based Sikorsky Aircraft and Lockheed Martin Corp., which has its world headquarters in Bethesda, Md., and much of its aviation operation in New York.
The competition "is starting to resemble the presidential race," said aviation industry analyst Richard Aboulafia. "Determined, fierce, even vicious."
Sikorsky, a pioneer in rotary-winged aircraft development, has provided helicopters for every president since Dwight D. Eisenhower. Lockheed has its own chopper credentials.
The current presidential helicopter from Sikorsky, a VH-3D Sea King, is a medium-lift, all-weather, single-rotor craft with a cruising speed of about 160 mph and range of 690 miles. In an average year, the fleet takes the president on about 150 flights.
Although the Pentagon had planned to seek bids on a new design before Sept. 11, 2001, the terrorist attacks highlighted the need for a helicopter that would allow the president to function as commander in chief at all times.
Most of the bid requirements for the communications gear, weapons systems and safety features are classified. So even in their zeal to tout their designs, Sikorsky and Lockheed executives must be careful in explaining what new capabilities or safety features they will provide for the president and other top-level government executives who use Marine One.
Both sides have implied that their helicopter would give the president the same unrestricted ability to direct troops and speak to allies and enemies that he has on Air Force One.
"What we will provide is an Oval Office in the sky," Lockheed spokesman Mike Drake said. The company's design — similar to Lockheed's Merlin helicopter, which is used by the British Royal Navy and Royal Air Force — has proven its sturdiness in Iraq and Bosnia, Drake said, adding: "This is a battle-proven military helicopter for the commander in chief."
Sikorsky says that the Texas firm that provides the communications system for Air Force One is working with the company on its design and that Lockheed is merely recycling an old copter.
"What would you rather have — an SUV that's 20 years old, or an SUV with air bags and antilock brakes?" said Nick Lappos, program chief for Sikorsky.
Pentagon rules also require that companies and individuals involved in making things for the president's use have an extremely high security clearance. In fact, one military official said that having a "Yankee White" clearance means you've been investigated so thoroughly, "you could have lunch with the president while carrying your 9-millimeter Beretta."
So in the Marine One competition, both sides have asserted their more-American-than-thou credentials. Sikorsky calls its project the All-American VH-92. Lockheed calls its design the US101, a riff on the designation of its Merlin, which is known as EH101.
For Lockheed, getting this security clearance is more of a problem since it has teamed up with its Merlin partner, the English-Italian company AgustaWestland. About a third of its US101 parts and components will be from foreign suppliers, a point Sikorsky has pointed out repeatedly.
In a global economy, having an aircraft — with all its thousands of components and parts — built solely in one country is difficult, if not impossible. For its other helicopters, Sikorsky also uses parts made abroad, although not to the degree Lockheed does.
"You can't really have an All-American helicopter when you're partners with the People's Republic of China," Drake said.
Sikorsky spokesman Ed Steadham said: "There will not be a Chinese supplier for presidential aircraft."
Both sides have played some politics in their bids to win the Marine One contract.
Lawmakers friendly to Sikorsky have spoken on its behalf. A Connecticut congressman called for an investigation into whether Lockheed could meet the Yankee White standard for its subcontractors and suppliers.
But other politicians, including Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y), have sided with Lockheed. Last year, British Prime Minister Tony Blair contacted the White House to speak favorably of AgustaWestland; last week a British defense department official made the rounds of official Washington to talk up the company and the Merlin.
Although the bidding competition is meant to be "hermetically sealed" from politics, analysts said, nothing in Washington can remain that aloof.
"It could boil down to a Democratic state [Sikorsky] vs. an Iraq war ally [AgustaWestland]," Aboulafia said.
Sikorsky recently took its prototype on tour, including a stop in Washington to give journalists and politicians a ride. The VH-92 is similar to Sikorsky's corporate helicopter — used by, among others, director Steven Spielberg.
Not to be outdone, Lockheed officials signaled the media when one of its Merlins appeared recently in San Diego at the Miramar Marine Corps Air Station air show.
Along with moving troops and supplies, the Merlin is the British military's helicopter of choice for transporting leading politicians and members of royalty. Queen Elizabeth II has flown in a Merlin, Lockheed said.
"Our role is moving everything from toilet seats to prime ministers," Wing Cmdr. Andy Turner said. "Your president should be very comfortable."
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Well : I have always thought that air bags and anti-lock brakes are dangerous additions to any vehicle. I think Nick should use a different comparison. Anti-lock brakes are so bad that no race car is ever fitted with them and air bags only save the lives of people who don't wear seat belts. In fact, there have been many cases of air bags killing short drivers who sit too close to the wheel.
But you see both these "features" look great in the sales catalogue. And maybe that's all Sikorsky want to achieve!
But you see both these "features" look great in the sales catalogue. And maybe that's all Sikorsky want to achieve!
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That's a good point. The first thing touring car drivers do is take off the ABS as they can brake better without it. A Nissan consultant told me recently that airbags were only introduced because of failures to convince American motorists, amongst others, to put on their seat belts. "But I was thrown clear. If I'd been wearing my seatbelt, I'd have died inside..."
The driver/pilot is more important. What are the differences to the pilot between the models, when they take off from DC which is just about to be hit by a missile or American Airlines plane and the Pres has to 'run the world' for an hour or so by helicopter ? Or are the flying characteristics/range/speed out of the danger area not important in the choice ?
Who wants any SUV anyway ? I want a sports car....and a 20 year old Aston Martin is fine by me.
The driver/pilot is more important. What are the differences to the pilot between the models, when they take off from DC which is just about to be hit by a missile or American Airlines plane and the Pres has to 'run the world' for an hour or so by helicopter ? Or are the flying characteristics/range/speed out of the danger area not important in the choice ?
Who wants any SUV anyway ? I want a sports car....and a 20 year old Aston Martin is fine by me.
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You can always apply the analogy too far...a brand new Ford ExpRoller or a 20 yr old Lambourghini Cheetah?
The media will take one phrase to try and sum up what was likely a >15 min interview with Nick. I'm sure Nick and Sikorsky wouldn't devolve such a critical competition into a loosely linked advertising jingle that is hardly even based on fact.
I can see how this 'campaigning' part of large contracts can get quite annoying and potentially distracting, even to the pros.
Matthew.
The media will take one phrase to try and sum up what was likely a >15 min interview with Nick. I'm sure Nick and Sikorsky wouldn't devolve such a critical competition into a loosely linked advertising jingle that is hardly even based on fact.
I can see how this 'campaigning' part of large contracts can get quite annoying and potentially distracting, even to the pros.
Matthew.
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If it works, dont fix it........... Sikorsky has been doing pretty good for Presidents since the CH-34 (S-58) was in service. I know, I know Ike had an OH-13 (B47)
As to Air bags and short people. maybe they shouldnt drive.....is that why all the Bars are so tall in the U.K.??
As to Air bags and short people. maybe they shouldnt drive.....is that why all the Bars are so tall in the U.K.??
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"As to Air bags and short people. maybe they shouldnt drive..." cue the Randy Newman re-mix. And let's hear it for our giant American cousins.
Danny de Vito
Joe Pesci
George W
Dr Ruth (sadly no more - but it wasn't an airbag that did for her.)
Joan Rivers
Bob Dylan (5' 6")
Dustin Hoffman
Fred Durst of Limp Bizkit
Lou Reed
Michael J Fox
Sammy Davis Jr
Mickey Rooney
Paul Simon
Dolly Parton
(pause for airbag jokes)
Willie Shoemaker
Gary Coleman
Kenny Baker (R2D2) : 3' 8""
Danny de Vito
Joe Pesci
George W
Dr Ruth (sadly no more - but it wasn't an airbag that did for her.)
Joan Rivers
Bob Dylan (5' 6")
Dustin Hoffman
Fred Durst of Limp Bizkit
Lou Reed
Michael J Fox
Sammy Davis Jr
Mickey Rooney
Paul Simon
Dolly Parton
(pause for airbag jokes)
Willie Shoemaker
Gary Coleman
Kenny Baker (R2D2) : 3' 8""
Last edited by headsethair; 31st Oct 2004 at 21:01.
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The quote was accurate, and the context is valid. The whole idea is "Does the Presidential helo decision favor the older, more experienced helo with earlier lower safety standards, or the newer, less experienced one with those higher standards?"
The differences between the EH-101 and the S/H-92 are basically collapsed down to that statement (for the Presidential mission, where cost is quite secondary) since they have very similar payload, and the 92 even has a payload advantage at any meaningful range. The use of airbags and anti-lock brakes is specific to cars, the helo issues are much more esoteric and less meaningful to the general public.
Regarding anti-lock brakes, anyone who doesn't drive race cars is a fool if he decides not to have this feature. I can certainly agree that full belts obviates the need for airbags. In the full quote I also mention side door strengthening and collapsable steering columns, as well as crash tests for bumpers and head hazard.
The differences between the EH-101 and the S/H-92 are basically collapsed down to that statement (for the Presidential mission, where cost is quite secondary) since they have very similar payload, and the 92 even has a payload advantage at any meaningful range. The use of airbags and anti-lock brakes is specific to cars, the helo issues are much more esoteric and less meaningful to the general public.
Regarding anti-lock brakes, anyone who doesn't drive race cars is a fool if he decides not to have this feature. I can certainly agree that full belts obviates the need for airbags. In the full quote I also mention side door strengthening and collapsable steering columns, as well as crash tests for bumpers and head hazard.
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I suppose an Mi8 is out of the question ?
I had the opportunity to check out the South African President's helicopter a few weeks ago when accompanying the military in our little 407 flying some less important minister.
We'd been sitting with the Air Force guys a while in the second Oryx (upgraded Puma for those who don't know) waiting until the Pres arrived. After all the shouting and screaming was over (and believe me there was a lot of it) and the bullet proof armoured limousines and other total wastes of tax payers' money disappeared into the dust (who'd want to shoot Thabo Mbeki ? Maybe Ghandi if he was still around ?), I asked the Colonel if I could take a peak inside the new arrival. With a quizzical look on his face he agreed. I trotted over and carefully opened the door to find...
...another perfectly ordinary Oryx. Hence the colonel's surprise at my interest. Apparently SA can't afford to have one its few remaining operational helicopters kitted out in VIP format so the second democratically elected president of the emancipated Republic of South Africa rides around on a canvas seat, in a standard (not very) sound proofed troop carrying helo. He does get issued with ear defenders though.
And exactly the same story for his predecessor; the one and only Saint Nelson Mandela used to ride around in exactly the same rather robust conditions. Suppose he was used to it after Robben Island but how come so much money was spend on a BBJ (or was it a freebie from Boeing for all those 737s and 747s SAA ordered ? Ha, ha, if so, sorry for you, all cancelled thanks to proverbial slippery French Airbus salespersons...) and nothing for a modest VIP chopper ?
We flew a 3 legged route and our ambitious pax wanted to ride leg 2 with the Pres so I fixed it with the Colonel. For leg 3, I was not surprised to him coming back to fly with us in air conditioned, leather luxury rather than rough it with the main man....
So, no airbags, no air con, not an SUV, certainly no anti-lock brakes, no leather and a rather dull paint job as well...Africa - not for sissies.
I had the opportunity to check out the South African President's helicopter a few weeks ago when accompanying the military in our little 407 flying some less important minister.
We'd been sitting with the Air Force guys a while in the second Oryx (upgraded Puma for those who don't know) waiting until the Pres arrived. After all the shouting and screaming was over (and believe me there was a lot of it) and the bullet proof armoured limousines and other total wastes of tax payers' money disappeared into the dust (who'd want to shoot Thabo Mbeki ? Maybe Ghandi if he was still around ?), I asked the Colonel if I could take a peak inside the new arrival. With a quizzical look on his face he agreed. I trotted over and carefully opened the door to find...
...another perfectly ordinary Oryx. Hence the colonel's surprise at my interest. Apparently SA can't afford to have one its few remaining operational helicopters kitted out in VIP format so the second democratically elected president of the emancipated Republic of South Africa rides around on a canvas seat, in a standard (not very) sound proofed troop carrying helo. He does get issued with ear defenders though.
And exactly the same story for his predecessor; the one and only Saint Nelson Mandela used to ride around in exactly the same rather robust conditions. Suppose he was used to it after Robben Island but how come so much money was spend on a BBJ (or was it a freebie from Boeing for all those 737s and 747s SAA ordered ? Ha, ha, if so, sorry for you, all cancelled thanks to proverbial slippery French Airbus salespersons...) and nothing for a modest VIP chopper ?
We flew a 3 legged route and our ambitious pax wanted to ride leg 2 with the Pres so I fixed it with the Colonel. For leg 3, I was not surprised to him coming back to fly with us in air conditioned, leather luxury rather than rough it with the main man....
So, no airbags, no air con, not an SUV, certainly no anti-lock brakes, no leather and a rather dull paint job as well...Africa - not for sissies.
