Air Ambulance rescue (Now incl post by the Paramedic - 9/11)
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exhemsdog
Yep and I'm reading yours right now!!!
Why is it that HH and Coconutty are getting slated for bringing this to a discussion? We ALL AGREE that the crew did a superb job and deserve the highest praise, no doubt. What HH and a few others are doing is opening up the scenario for all to view and discuss, no critisism of the crew or their actions nope, just a debate that is healthy and informative. I think we all have learned from this thread and I am sure it will be useful if this situation arises again. Planning is the keypoint that doesnt mean a weeks chat first, just some common sense and good planning for all eventualities. Which these guys did.
CRM seesm to be a big issue here and you mr Ex hems dog must have missed your last course!
Its outbursts like yours that add nothing positive to an interesting debate.
I have read some crap at times
Why is it that HH and Coconutty are getting slated for bringing this to a discussion? We ALL AGREE that the crew did a superb job and deserve the highest praise, no doubt. What HH and a few others are doing is opening up the scenario for all to view and discuss, no critisism of the crew or their actions nope, just a debate that is healthy and informative. I think we all have learned from this thread and I am sure it will be useful if this situation arises again. Planning is the keypoint that doesnt mean a weeks chat first, just some common sense and good planning for all eventualities. Which these guys did.
CRM seesm to be a big issue here and you mr Ex hems dog must have missed your last course!
Its outbursts like yours that add nothing positive to an interesting debate.
Hovering AND talking
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A couple of years ago, I started a thread on this forum along the lines of "What the bl**dy hell does this guy think he's doing?" The replies I got were mostly "OK, technically illegal but not dangerous and good fun - hope he gets away with it". However, there were a number of posters (and Whirly has a long memory) who flamed me big time. Like HuntnHound, I backed down and bowed to superior wisdom and experience but still it carried on.....
So, where someone has asked some valid questions (and there are some of us here who would wish to learn from the experiences of others), why can't we have some reasoned answers? TC seemed to be one of the few who grasped the topic and have a good response.
ExHemsDog, I do not know of any PPL who would have a go at that sort of rescue but, in the helo world, I only know three PPLs at most. However, what it does bring to mind is the lovely video of the pilot who stoofed a JetRanger into the sea when he tried to tow a motor boat. So there are some pretty stoopid pilots out there!!
But it is a good point that you make that an episode such as this serves to demonstrate a) what can be done and b) what needs to be done in order to achieve it. It would encourage me to learn more and also, how little I do know.
There was a recent thread called "well-adjusted helicopter pilots" started by SE7EN.
C'mon chaps and chappesses, no more bickering.
In essence, I think we all agree; just have different ways of expressing it!
Cheers
Whirlygig
So, where someone has asked some valid questions (and there are some of us here who would wish to learn from the experiences of others), why can't we have some reasoned answers? TC seemed to be one of the few who grasped the topic and have a good response.
ExHemsDog, I do not know of any PPL who would have a go at that sort of rescue but, in the helo world, I only know three PPLs at most. However, what it does bring to mind is the lovely video of the pilot who stoofed a JetRanger into the sea when he tried to tow a motor boat. So there are some pretty stoopid pilots out there!!
But it is a good point that you make that an episode such as this serves to demonstrate a) what can be done and b) what needs to be done in order to achieve it. It would encourage me to learn more and also, how little I do know.
There was a recent thread called "well-adjusted helicopter pilots" started by SE7EN.
C'mon chaps and chappesses, no more bickering.
In essence, I think we all agree; just have different ways of expressing it!
Cheers
Whirlygig
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Having done my share of dodgy crossings of African rivers in Landrovers etc and white water canoeing
a) There was enough water piled up on the upstream side of that car that it must have been close to losing adhesion and heading downstream, possibly upside down.
b) The guy could probably have got out on the downstream side but what then? He could not have waded ashore through 0.5 m of water travelling at that speed
If he had tried,he would have been swept uncontrollably downstream.
c)The flood depth could have increased at any time if the fire brigade etc had been waited-for
All things considered the guy might have been OK without the chopper rescue. But would anyone want to play those odds?
'kin good flying IMHO
a) There was enough water piled up on the upstream side of that car that it must have been close to losing adhesion and heading downstream, possibly upside down.
b) The guy could probably have got out on the downstream side but what then? He could not have waded ashore through 0.5 m of water travelling at that speed
If he had tried,he would have been swept uncontrollably downstream.
c)The flood depth could have increased at any time if the fire brigade etc had been waited-for
All things considered the guy might have been OK without the chopper rescue. But would anyone want to play those odds?
'kin good flying IMHO
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Whirlygig,
There are ways of asking genuine questions and there are ways of disguising critisism as questions; this topic started with option #2 and the replies (including mine) were based on that critisism.
There has never been any doubt in any of the contributors' mind as to the need to correctly identify the least risky course of action. However, sometimes one runs out of viable options and has to bite the bullit and decide, based on capability, personal limits, performance and worst case scenarios. And that can be a go or no-go decision, and it will be discussed for months to come.
These guys did, and let us know that indeed they took a calculated risk as most of us suspected (that's what professionalism is all about).
So I don't believe what happened in this thread was unfair and undeserved.
There are ways of asking genuine questions and there are ways of disguising critisism as questions; this topic started with option #2 and the replies (including mine) were based on that critisism.
There has never been any doubt in any of the contributors' mind as to the need to correctly identify the least risky course of action. However, sometimes one runs out of viable options and has to bite the bullit and decide, based on capability, personal limits, performance and worst case scenarios. And that can be a go or no-go decision, and it will be discussed for months to come.
These guys did, and let us know that indeed they took a calculated risk as most of us suspected (that's what professionalism is all about).
So I don't believe what happened in this thread was unfair and undeserved.
Pilotwolf:
I'd like to comment on your view that you'd always save life Vs losing your licence. If it was that simple, so too, would every other pilot.
The thing to remember is that you are placing many other innocent people within that deadly arena. IF things go wrong (and they sometimes will/do) and you kill a member of your crew that day (by default, you've probably not been able to complete the rescue, so the victim dies too?). Could you sleep well at night????
It is not black and white, is it? Think about the implications of joining the fracas.
About the issue of saving anything other than people - I would never ever, ever put my crew at risk (or myself) for the sake of an animal or object....totally irresponsible attitude!
Joe (PPL) saving life in his chopper - he probably has more leeway with the CAA than commercial operators!!! Remember the Potomac 737 crash where the jet ranger pilot did the recue off his own back??? I think the issue here would be focused on experience rather than H and S?
We, as emergency services operators are actively DIScouraged from taking part in dramatic rescues, by both the Home Office and the CAA. They know though that it goes on and as long as there isn't an incident, nothing is said.
But mark my words:
The day something goes wrong - they will hang that crew out to dry and make an example of them nationwide.
I'd like to comment on your view that you'd always save life Vs losing your licence. If it was that simple, so too, would every other pilot.
The thing to remember is that you are placing many other innocent people within that deadly arena. IF things go wrong (and they sometimes will/do) and you kill a member of your crew that day (by default, you've probably not been able to complete the rescue, so the victim dies too?). Could you sleep well at night????
It is not black and white, is it? Think about the implications of joining the fracas.
About the issue of saving anything other than people - I would never ever, ever put my crew at risk (or myself) for the sake of an animal or object....totally irresponsible attitude!
Joe (PPL) saving life in his chopper - he probably has more leeway with the CAA than commercial operators!!! Remember the Potomac 737 crash where the jet ranger pilot did the recue off his own back??? I think the issue here would be focused on experience rather than H and S?
We, as emergency services operators are actively DIScouraged from taking part in dramatic rescues, by both the Home Office and the CAA. They know though that it goes on and as long as there isn't an incident, nothing is said.
But mark my words:
The day something goes wrong - they will hang that crew out to dry and make an example of them nationwide.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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I have many friends who are PPL(H) as indeed am I, between us we have many hours on many different flying machines, but I feel that I can state catagorically NONE OF US PPL(H) pilots would feel able to get involved in a rescue situation, ...the results could be not good, and after all here in the UK we are pretty well covered with rescue and Police Helis that would be able to get involved without the non professional risk factor, plus the RAF and ARMY and Coastguard are all there for inland backup.
Despite being Private Pilots, we all know what our limits are!
PeterR-B
VFR
Despite being Private Pilots, we all know what our limits are!
PeterR-B
VFR
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Just poping back in from the side TC has a good point.
when i was on duty our list of priorities where as follows.
1) life
2) Property
3) Humane
In that order is how we worked losing a crew member to save a cow in a pit or a dog down a drian or loss a helicopter and crew to save a stranded sheep for arguements sake i dont think so.
Life yes consider the risk and pos take it. i dont think there is an issue. but humane i think we would have to way up the odds, first.
But i have to say the thread has produced some interesting feed back.
Back on the side
B 99
when i was on duty our list of priorities where as follows.
1) life
2) Property
3) Humane
In that order is how we worked losing a crew member to save a cow in a pit or a dog down a drian or loss a helicopter and crew to save a stranded sheep for arguements sake i dont think so.
Life yes consider the risk and pos take it. i dont think there is an issue. but humane i think we would have to way up the odds, first.
But i have to say the thread has produced some interesting feed back.
Back on the side
B 99
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I suspect that, if huntnhound had started the discussion in a different way, the reaction to his post would have been different.
I suppose it's possible hnh was simply posing a thought-provoking question "without passing any criticism ( or praise )" but it's difficult to reconcile that with the content and tone of his originating post. And, as has already been pointed out, starting a thread about a successful rescue task with an 'unhappy' symbol
suggests a negative view is being expressed.
Threads about successful rescues often have a
attached.
is more commonly used when pilots and/or others have lost their lives.
The responses might also have been different if the originating post had included at least some passing compliment to the crew - which is what others have done.
NB I'm not complaining - this is a discussion forum from which we can all learn something new every day, regardless of our experience levels. The more thought-provoking discussion the better as far as I'm concerned - and 'provocative' posts are often the most thought-provoking.
I suppose it's possible hnh was simply posing a thought-provoking question "without passing any criticism ( or praise )" but it's difficult to reconcile that with the content and tone of his originating post. And, as has already been pointed out, starting a thread about a successful rescue task with an 'unhappy' symbol
suggests a negative view is being expressed.Threads about successful rescues often have a
attached. is more commonly used when pilots and/or others have lost their lives.The responses might also have been different if the originating post had included at least some passing compliment to the crew - which is what others have done.
NB I'm not complaining - this is a discussion forum from which we can all learn something new every day, regardless of our experience levels. The more thought-provoking discussion the better as far as I'm concerned - and 'provocative' posts are often the most thought-provoking.
Thread Starter
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...................."No, but isn't your first duty to protect life?"..........
Yep, not only the person you are trying to save but the three or four in the air also
Yep, not only the person you are trying to save but the three or four in the air also
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.... " Healthy discussion " ....
Healthy discussion is exactly right and is exactly what's needed - which is what HunterHound started here. I posed another " What if ... " question to provoke even more " Healthy " discussion but now find that I am looking at borrowing a bullet proof vest from one of the Police air units, and maybe asking the Air Ambo crews for some anti-venom serum, just for voicing my support of HH AND the crew !
exhemsdog :
Sorry to disappoint but No - I'm none of those, although I am partial to the occasional macaroon with my tea 
Your comments aren't exactly constructive are they ?
Maybe you get off on winding people up,
Maybe you're just a complete doombrain,
Maybe the word "maybe" is pure conjecture used to provoke further comment ( or maybe it's not )...
I asked the question "What would they do" ( PPL's coming across such an incident ) and posed a few suggestions - I did NOT "summise" anything as YOU seem to have done.
How is it that you can make assumptions on behalf of all PPL's that they would NOT consider a rescue after reading this thread ?? - Surely as a mere Human Being this is exactly what they would and should do, and should then reach the correct decision ( whatever it may be ) based on all the circumstances known to them at the time ???
I will make an assumption about you however, and that is that you seem to be quite at ease with flaunting regulations -
- If this were on a road with a 40 mph speed limit it would equate to 12.5% over the limit - I wonder if you would you be so reticent about flaunting other regulations by the same amount, like MTOW's or Duty Hours, or maybe just going a "little bit" into the restricted air space that you're not cleared to enter etc. etc. etc ???
Rules and regulations are there for a reason - you don't seem to have grasped this - but I bet you'd be the first to complain if your nearest and dearest were maimed by a motorist that could not stop in time because they were going 5mph over the limit - like that child in the UK safety TV advert. The overall stopping distance at 45 MPH ( according to the D.O.T. ) compared to 40 MPH is an extra 37.5 feet - nearly 3 car lengths !
But back to the main topic , which was : raising some serious considerations in an unusual rescue situation like this - I stand by my support of HH for starting the thread without criticism or praise - I do accept BRONX's comment about the "unhappy" face which does cast a certain ambience over the topic at the outset - but there was no actual criticism from HH at the start and he didn't deserve the slating he got just for sticking his neck above the turret.
Of course I also stand by my praise of the crew for an excellent job.
Consider this : if no-one questions, if no-one asks, if no-one criticises, if no-one enquires, then what's the point of it all ?
We may as well get rid of the CAA the FAA the ANO, not to mention the Road Traffic Act, and all do our own thing, and while we'll never again pick up a few penalty points on our driving licences, or have to fork out a few quid in speeding fines, we will of course be totally safe in our metal boxes undertaking at 120 in the "slow" lane, never mind what the likes of exhemsdog will be up to in the air
exhemsdog :
I have read some crap at times but coconutty you take the biscuit, I can only think you are sleeping with huntnhound, or maybe you are a fully law abiding by the book policeman, who we all love to meet when caught doing 5 mph over the limit and have to endure the lecture!!
Your comments aren't exactly constructive are they ?
Maybe you get off on winding people up,
Maybe you're just a complete doombrain,
Maybe the word "maybe" is pure conjecture used to provoke further comment ( or maybe it's not )...
I asked the question "What would they do" ( PPL's coming across such an incident ) and posed a few suggestions - I did NOT "summise" anything as YOU seem to have done.
How is it that you can make assumptions on behalf of all PPL's that they would NOT consider a rescue after reading this thread ?? - Surely as a mere Human Being this is exactly what they would and should do, and should then reach the correct decision ( whatever it may be ) based on all the circumstances known to them at the time ???
I will make an assumption about you however, and that is that you seem to be quite at ease with flaunting regulations -
when caught doing 5 mph over the limit
Rules and regulations are there for a reason - you don't seem to have grasped this - but I bet you'd be the first to complain if your nearest and dearest were maimed by a motorist that could not stop in time because they were going 5mph over the limit - like that child in the UK safety TV advert. The overall stopping distance at 45 MPH ( according to the D.O.T. ) compared to 40 MPH is an extra 37.5 feet - nearly 3 car lengths !
But back to the main topic , which was : raising some serious considerations in an unusual rescue situation like this - I stand by my support of HH for starting the thread without criticism or praise - I do accept BRONX's comment about the "unhappy" face which does cast a certain ambience over the topic at the outset - but there was no actual criticism from HH at the start and he didn't deserve the slating he got just for sticking his neck above the turret.
Of course I also stand by my praise of the crew for an excellent job.
Consider this : if no-one questions, if no-one asks, if no-one criticises, if no-one enquires, then what's the point of it all ?
We may as well get rid of the CAA the FAA the ANO, not to mention the Road Traffic Act, and all do our own thing, and while we'll never again pick up a few penalty points on our driving licences, or have to fork out a few quid in speeding fines, we will of course be totally safe in our metal boxes undertaking at 120 in the "slow" lane, never mind what the likes of exhemsdog will be up to in the air
Coconutty: you'll have to excuse exhemsdog: probably a resident commentator on justhelicopters.com, the red light district for helo forums.
Your comments were constructive and thought provoking.
Your comments were constructive and thought provoking.
There's always one !
Hovering AND talking
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Banjo,
No probs!
Previous thread discussing it
The link here didn't work when I tried it just now so try this - it's called HeloTowJob.
http://www.agschools.com/humor.htm
Cheers
Whirlygig
No probs!
Previous thread discussing it
The link here didn't work when I tried it just now so try this - it's called HeloTowJob.
http://www.agschools.com/humor.htm
Cheers
Whirlygig
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Banjo said
" Whirlygig,
any idea where i can see the video of the jetbox towing the boat crash??.. must be funny and the guys would love to see it."
Funny? Oh yeah, it's hilarious. Would you also like a link to the Sea King that crashed on the deck of the ship and burst into flames? Or the AS350 Newscopter that crashed on the roof of building?
Funny? are you sure you're in the right forum? Or business come to that?
Anyway...back to the Rescue.
I was just reviewing my First Aid procedures yesterday (Ok that may seem a bit sad ..) and one Page 1 it said something like...
" The rescuer should never put themselves in a position where their own safety is compromised".
Or put mathematically : One stupid motorist does not equal ((1 x helicopter + (1 x paramedic + 1 x pilot))
Discuss.
" Whirlygig,
any idea where i can see the video of the jetbox towing the boat crash??.. must be funny and the guys would love to see it."
Funny? Oh yeah, it's hilarious. Would you also like a link to the Sea King that crashed on the deck of the ship and burst into flames? Or the AS350 Newscopter that crashed on the roof of building?
Funny? are you sure you're in the right forum? Or business come to that?
Anyway...back to the Rescue.
I was just reviewing my First Aid procedures yesterday (Ok that may seem a bit sad ..) and one Page 1 it said something like...
" The rescuer should never put themselves in a position where their own safety is compromised".
Or put mathematically : One stupid motorist does not equal ((1 x helicopter + (1 x paramedic + 1 x pilot))
Discuss.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
On the subject of videos of this nature, (A reality check maybe to highlight that you'll perhaps not always get away lightly)
There is also the video of the Taiwan Dauphin taking part in a simulated SAR rescue over a river for a publicity event.
Taiwan press link
Unfortunately, despite being a dedicated rescue aircraft with trained crew and with little pressure apart from the publicity, it all went horribly wrong.
What's even more amazing about it, is that the winchman is deployed at the time and survives!
If no-one beats me to it I'll host and post a link to the vid shortly.
There is also the video of the Taiwan Dauphin taking part in a simulated SAR rescue over a river for a publicity event.
Taiwan press link Unfortunately, despite being a dedicated rescue aircraft with trained crew and with little pressure apart from the publicity, it all went horribly wrong.
What's even more amazing about it, is that the winchman is deployed at the time and survives!
If no-one beats me to it I'll host and post a link to the vid shortly.
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 30th Oct 2004 at 20:30.
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Mr Terrier
Actually it is funny..if you cared to watch it you would see this; it bears no resemblence to the other crashes you mentioned, I have seen all of them and yes your stomach turns over, but this one is just plain stupid behaviour by the pilot. You then have a moan about the duty crew on the air ambo by stating you read your first aid book and true it dooes say that..however I can guess these chaps did all the right things in the right order and it worked.
So whats up Terrier man your team lose today? you wanna watch mine mate if you really want depression
Funny? Oh yeah, it's hilarious. Would you also like a link to the Sea King that crashed on the deck of the ship and burst into flames? Or the AS350 Newscopter that crashed on the roof of building?
So whats up Terrier man your team lose today? you wanna watch mine mate if you really want depression
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Coconutty
I understand your point about the assumption exhemsguy made about PPLs. Probably not a safe assumption.
What a pity you then went on to make some some extraordinary assumptions yourself about the type of people who'd exceed a speed limit by 5 mph.
Probably includes 99% of the population (certainly includes me)provided the road and prevailing conditions make it safe to do so.
But, as you said, "back to the main topic."
I understand your point about the assumption exhemsguy made about PPLs. Probably not a safe assumption.
What a pity you then went on to make some some extraordinary assumptions yourself about the type of people who'd exceed a speed limit by 5 mph.
Probably includes 99% of the population (certainly includes me)provided the road and prevailing conditions make it safe to do so.
But, as you said, "back to the main topic."