North Sea Jigsaw
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 109
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From: UK
Flight International
Interesting ad in Flight this week from Bond Offshore looking for Jigsaw crews.
I am surprised that it is only "desirable" for Jigsaw SAR commanders to have any previous SAR experience - I would have thought that lots of experience was essential. They will also take untrained crewmen.
The Ad also requires the crews to live near Aberdeen, presumably so that they can fly the line between SAR stints.
I am surprised that it is only "desirable" for Jigsaw SAR commanders to have any previous SAR experience - I would have thought that lots of experience was essential. They will also take untrained crewmen.
The Ad also requires the crews to live near Aberdeen, presumably so that they can fly the line between SAR stints.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 110
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From: Oop North
I am surprised that BP are willing to have inexperienced (SAR) captains on this contract. I would think that night hovering over the sea in poor weather is not something that you pick up with only a few hours training. I think that they may struggle to get suitable captains if they only pay "normal" line rates. Who wants to spend 6 months of the year stuck on a N Sea platform with nothing much to do.
Things can go horribly wrong very quickly when doing SAR and one accident would be devastating to the good idea of replacing safety boats with helicopters
332M
Things can go horribly wrong very quickly when doing SAR and one accident would be devastating to the good idea of replacing safety boats with helicopters
332M
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 109
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From: UK
332mistress,
I don't think its just inexperienced commanders they will take, it implies that they will take you with NO experience (SAR experience desirable)!
A fully coupled SAR helicopter can hold an accurate hover when it works and the doppler doesn't unlock - unlocking typically over a glassy seas when you have fog (just when you need it). There are no known systems which will hold an accurate hover over a deck or a drifting liferaft, so an experienced commander and winch op is essential.
Add to this inexperienced crewmen and it becomes scary. I agree with you, do BP and their workforce know what they are buying?
I don't think its just inexperienced commanders they will take, it implies that they will take you with NO experience (SAR experience desirable)!
A fully coupled SAR helicopter can hold an accurate hover when it works and the doppler doesn't unlock - unlocking typically over a glassy seas when you have fog (just when you need it). There are no known systems which will hold an accurate hover over a deck or a drifting liferaft, so an experienced commander and winch op is essential.
Add to this inexperienced crewmen and it becomes scary. I agree with you, do BP and their workforce know what they are buying?
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 315
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From: Up here, but not for long
I think that the advertisement might have been poorly thought out - the Emperor perhaps?
No way will BP accept low time SAR Commanders - this flagship project will be under very close scrutiny and any incidents will be pounced on. The OILC will not let anything be kept quiet.
As for salaries, don't expect too much - remember they are a low-cost operator.
Wiz
No way will BP accept low time SAR Commanders - this flagship project will be under very close scrutiny and any incidents will be pounced on. The OILC will not let anything be kept quiet.
As for salaries, don't expect too much - remember they are a low-cost operator.
Wiz
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 315
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From: Up here, but not for long
Static:
Bond won the BP North Sea support contract. Ergo the company that lost the contract - 3 L2 Pumas - would/could need to downsize. If one were qualified on type and low in seniority one might feel it best to jump before one is pushed!
Salaries at first glance similar to the other operators but there are lots of caveats - North Sea experience, hours, colour of eyes etc.
Wiz
Bond won the BP North Sea support contract. Ergo the company that lost the contract - 3 L2 Pumas - would/could need to downsize. If one were qualified on type and low in seniority one might feel it best to jump before one is pushed!
Salaries at first glance similar to the other operators but there are lots of caveats - North Sea experience, hours, colour of eyes etc.
Wiz
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 137
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From: uk
Wizard,
Thanks for the reply, it makes sense, but do you know who Bond are recruiting/using as FO's for the SAR contract as the new advert is for commanders. Are their own crews moving sideways to fill slots opening space at their aberdeen base requiring further recruitment
Thanks for the reply, it makes sense, but do you know who Bond are recruiting/using as FO's for the SAR contract as the new advert is for commanders. Are their own crews moving sideways to fill slots opening space at their aberdeen base requiring further recruitment
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 315
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From: Up here, but not for long
Static:
I'm pretty sure that they will need FO's as they're working very hard at the moment on their regular contract.
They seem a happy bunch from what I've seen - from a distance!
Wiz
I'm pretty sure that they will need FO's as they're working very hard at the moment on their regular contract.
They seem a happy bunch from what I've seen - from a distance!
Wiz
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 46
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From: Aberdeen, UK
Wizzard, your statement about Bond 'Dont expect too much they're a low cost operator!' makes me smile.
Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that in your opinion the red/white/blue operators are offering a higher class, maybe a first class (VIP) service to their passengers, in-flight meals/entertainment, luxury survival suits maybe.
Having worked for both of the red/white and blues in recent years, I dont recall this being the case!
Correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that in your opinion the red/white/blue operators are offering a higher class, maybe a first class (VIP) service to their passengers, in-flight meals/entertainment, luxury survival suits maybe.
Having worked for both of the red/white and blues in recent years, I dont recall this being the case!
Last edited by Jetboxer; 18th August 2004 at 17:41.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 127
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From: Nowhere Special
What I would like to know is whether the Bond SAR crews are going to have to prove the same standard as the Jigsaw Trial Team?
The Trial crews were all professional and current SAR operators with years of experience from both the military and Coastguard. The Jigsaw concept was sold on what they achieved after nearly a year of day and night winching in all sea states. Now that BP has chosen another operator with different crews are they going to meet the same standard or is this being conveniently passed over? Apparently the winchmen are going to be HEMS paramedic’s so no winching experience there, and the co-pilots taken off the line in Aberdeen.
Anyway, a message for all budding Jigsaw SAR commanders – If you are going to buy a house in Aberdeen then avoid the Bridge of Don and Danestane area. The house prices there are always the first to suffer when the oil price drops followed closely by Kingswells and Westhill.
The Trial crews were all professional and current SAR operators with years of experience from both the military and Coastguard. The Jigsaw concept was sold on what they achieved after nearly a year of day and night winching in all sea states. Now that BP has chosen another operator with different crews are they going to meet the same standard or is this being conveniently passed over? Apparently the winchmen are going to be HEMS paramedic’s so no winching experience there, and the co-pilots taken off the line in Aberdeen.
Anyway, a message for all budding Jigsaw SAR commanders – If you are going to buy a house in Aberdeen then avoid the Bridge of Don and Danestane area. The house prices there are always the first to suffer when the oil price drops followed closely by Kingswells and Westhill.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 20
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From: Europe
LOW COST OPERATORS
Jetbox,
I think Wizzard is saying that the money will not be very good in Bond because they are a" low cost operator".
Self proclaimed low cost operators tend to cost less because they pay their employees less ( among other things )
Nobody is talking about the quality of the passengers suits.
Still smiling?
I think Wizzard is saying that the money will not be very good in Bond because they are a" low cost operator".
Self proclaimed low cost operators tend to cost less because they pay their employees less ( among other things )
Nobody is talking about the quality of the passengers suits.
Still smiling?
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
From: UK
If Bond are going to use line co-pilots, that isn't too much of a problem so long as there is a training scheme in place for them to become SAR qualified. After all, you have to start somewhere!
Are the HEMS medics going to get a winchman's course from someone such as Bristow, FBH or the RAF? If not, how are they going to be trained, in house? Will they be able to get recurrent training to keep up their medical skills? Anybody know if Bond have any SAR trainers on their aircrew side, or are they looking for those too?
I suspect that there is a lot going on that we are not privvy to for whatever reason (probably commercial) and only time will tell how it is going to work. Fun to speculate though.
Are the HEMS medics going to get a winchman's course from someone such as Bristow, FBH or the RAF? If not, how are they going to be trained, in house? Will they be able to get recurrent training to keep up their medical skills? Anybody know if Bond have any SAR trainers on their aircrew side, or are they looking for those too?
I suspect that there is a lot going on that we are not privvy to for whatever reason (probably commercial) and only time will tell how it is going to work. Fun to speculate though.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 127
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From: Nowhere Special
That's fair enough if the guys are going to get properly trained but my question still stands -
Are they going to have to meet the same performance standard as the Jigsaw Trial Team before they start the SAR cover or will it be assumed that because the Trials did it then they can too?
Are they going to have to meet the same performance standard as the Jigsaw Trial Team before they start the SAR cover or will it be assumed that because the Trials did it then they can too?
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 46
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From: Aberdeen, UK
Mountainman, Wizzard
The title low cost operator maybe justified with regard to the price BP are paying. I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of the contract, but if the cost to BP is less than the opposition were charging I dont think this is due to Bond "paying their employees less (among other things!)" - as you've stated.
The flight crew pay scales are almost identical to competitors and in some cases better. The number of crew that migrated across the airfield would not have done so if this were not the case. Also, none of these crew were in threat of being pushed, as Wizzard stated. They would not have been at risk due to their age, experience, seniority.
As for "Among other things":
-All the flight crew have been sent to Eurocopter in the South of France to complete courses of training. This was not just crew that required the full AS332L2 type rating course, but also those who already had the type on their license. The engineers have been through similar courses of training, also in France. This is a cost that the opposition have chosen not to bear.
-5 new AS332L2s with a more advanced Nav kit than the oppo. A quieter cabin and more comfortable seating is not the cheapest option either.
-A totally refurbished hangar/terminal, with brand new equipment, which the engineers seem very happy with.
Maybe Bond are not a 'Low cost operator'. They are just more careful where their resources are being allocated. Where it counts - on Training, equipment, and employees (those that bend'em and those that mend'em), and not on buildings full of beancounters trying to keep Big Brother across the Atlantic happy!
Some may think I'm off on a tangent with regard to this thread, but I think if Bond Offshore Helicopters carry on the way they have started and approach Jigsaw in a similar way, I have no doubt the operation will be a success.
Mountainman, I'm sure you know a lot more about the SAR aspects of the operation than myself, as I have no experience in this role. I do understand the difficulties in getting experienced crews (which I agree, is a must!) and setting up efficient training programs. A year ago many people had doubts, myself included, as to wether Bond would be up and running, competetive, and safe. I've been pleasantly surprised.
As I said, if they continue in the same vein, you might be surprised at how they cope with Jigsaw.
I'm sure experienced crews will be sourced and they will have to be payed well for their services. Just as the offshore line crews were sourced.
Still smiling.
The title low cost operator maybe justified with regard to the price BP are paying. I'm not familiar with the ins and outs of the contract, but if the cost to BP is less than the opposition were charging I dont think this is due to Bond "paying their employees less (among other things!)" - as you've stated.
The flight crew pay scales are almost identical to competitors and in some cases better. The number of crew that migrated across the airfield would not have done so if this were not the case. Also, none of these crew were in threat of being pushed, as Wizzard stated. They would not have been at risk due to their age, experience, seniority.
As for "Among other things":
-All the flight crew have been sent to Eurocopter in the South of France to complete courses of training. This was not just crew that required the full AS332L2 type rating course, but also those who already had the type on their license. The engineers have been through similar courses of training, also in France. This is a cost that the opposition have chosen not to bear.
-5 new AS332L2s with a more advanced Nav kit than the oppo. A quieter cabin and more comfortable seating is not the cheapest option either.
-A totally refurbished hangar/terminal, with brand new equipment, which the engineers seem very happy with.
Maybe Bond are not a 'Low cost operator'. They are just more careful where their resources are being allocated. Where it counts - on Training, equipment, and employees (those that bend'em and those that mend'em), and not on buildings full of beancounters trying to keep Big Brother across the Atlantic happy!
Some may think I'm off on a tangent with regard to this thread, but I think if Bond Offshore Helicopters carry on the way they have started and approach Jigsaw in a similar way, I have no doubt the operation will be a success.
Mountainman, I'm sure you know a lot more about the SAR aspects of the operation than myself, as I have no experience in this role. I do understand the difficulties in getting experienced crews (which I agree, is a must!) and setting up efficient training programs. A year ago many people had doubts, myself included, as to wether Bond would be up and running, competetive, and safe. I've been pleasantly surprised.
As I said, if they continue in the same vein, you might be surprised at how they cope with Jigsaw.
I'm sure experienced crews will be sourced and they will have to be payed well for their services. Just as the offshore line crews were sourced.
Still smiling.