Some of our test pilots are missing
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Some of our test pilots are missing
I suppose we are all spoilt rotten, having become used to our PPRuNe test pilot heroes Shawn, Rich Lee and the mighty Lappos. But where, I hear you cry, are the others?
The American manufacturers are well represented, with our three musketeers enlightening us all with regard to matters Sikorsky, MD and Bell.
But where are the Europeans? How about contributions from the guys at the sharp end of the AB149, EC 135, EH 101, 109, etc. And let us not forget the Russians with the Kamov & Mil hardware.
I know that I'm being greedy here, and I understand that there is potentially a language barrier for those nationals working in the non-English speaking parts of the helicopter world, but hey-Sue me!!
The American manufacturers are well represented, with our three musketeers enlightening us all with regard to matters Sikorsky, MD and Bell.
But where are the Europeans? How about contributions from the guys at the sharp end of the AB149, EC 135, EH 101, 109, etc. And let us not forget the Russians with the Kamov & Mil hardware.
I know that I'm being greedy here, and I understand that there is potentially a language barrier for those nationals working in the non-English speaking parts of the helicopter world, but hey-Sue me!!
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It's not just the Europeans that are missing...
At the Society of Experimental Test Pilots annual symposium this year, there was:
Exactly one helicopter paper given (V-22)
One test pilot from Boeing Helicopters (including both Mesa and Philadelphia)
No one from Bell, Sikorsky, Eurocopter, Westlands, Robinson.
One Russian test pilot (but not from Mil or Kamov)
Only US Army pilots I saw were students from the US Navy school (in the defence of the others, the Ft. Rucker folks were evidently ferrying helicopters away from or back to Rucker because of hurricanes, but still....)
It's like helicopters are definitely second class citizens as far as manufacturers are concerned, especially in the world of flight testing.
At the Society of Experimental Test Pilots annual symposium this year, there was:
Exactly one helicopter paper given (V-22)
One test pilot from Boeing Helicopters (including both Mesa and Philadelphia)
No one from Bell, Sikorsky, Eurocopter, Westlands, Robinson.
One Russian test pilot (but not from Mil or Kamov)
Only US Army pilots I saw were students from the US Navy school (in the defence of the others, the Ft. Rucker folks were evidently ferrying helicopters away from or back to Rucker because of hurricanes, but still....)
It's like helicopters are definitely second class citizens as far as manufacturers are concerned, especially in the world of flight testing.
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I wish the current test schedule at Boeing would have allowed me to attend SETP, or SETP would hold a symposium within a two hour drive from my home. Alas, not all wishes can come true!
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Bomber makes a good point, fellows! I know that Jerry Tracy is out there, perhaps under pseudonym. Where is Etienne Herrenschmidt (retired), or Andy Logan (Tigre pilot) of EC?
The Russians have some greats, but their English is not too good (just an observation, not a critisizm, neither is my Russian!)
The Russians have some greats, but their English is not too good (just an observation, not a critisizm, neither is my Russian!)
It's like helicopters are definitely second class citizens as far as manufacturers are concerned, especially in the world of flight testing.
In the eastern countries the TP have other problems as to post here or to trip around the world. Our companies closed the relationship with the russian manufacturers.
In Europe it seems we don't have to say to much (especially helicopters in SETP).
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Shawn,
I really have to take exception to your straw poll where the respect given to test pilots by their employers is determined by the attendence at SETP!
At Sikorsky, no project is formed without a project test pilot, who must aprove all cockpit and basic systems designs. The chief test pilot is an executive of the company, and rhis/her regular reports are distributed directly to the company president and all the senior vp's without editing.
I think your survey is backwards - if the tp's don't attend SETP, look there for where the problem resides. While SETP is a great org, it is not particularly influential in the helicopter world. And frankly, manufacturers know that the typical military TP is a long way from being qualified to conduct manufacturer's shakedown/development tests.
I really have to take exception to your straw poll where the respect given to test pilots by their employers is determined by the attendence at SETP!
At Sikorsky, no project is formed without a project test pilot, who must aprove all cockpit and basic systems designs. The chief test pilot is an executive of the company, and rhis/her regular reports are distributed directly to the company president and all the senior vp's without editing.
I think your survey is backwards - if the tp's don't attend SETP, look there for where the problem resides. While SETP is a great org, it is not particularly influential in the helicopter world. And frankly, manufacturers know that the typical military TP is a long way from being qualified to conduct manufacturer's shakedown/development tests.
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Nick and Shawn- Not sure if it is SETP or the manufacturers to blame, but at least one company refuses to fund TPs involvement with SETP. Meanwhile, the same company funds engineers for SFTE and AHS membership and regular attendance at their conventions. Most of our TPs cannot get time off and can't afford to attend SETP on their own dimes.
Nick, I am not sure that all companies' managment see a difference between TPs- they seem to be looking purely at budget sometimes, and are more than willing to send development work away from the company and to the military or even to use non-TPs.
I would think that there may be many other test pilots lurking around, but they are all more than willing to let Nick, Rich, and Shawn handle all the work. (Rumor has it that they are all so old, they need to spend their time typing to stay awake......)
Nick, I am not sure that all companies' managment see a difference between TPs- they seem to be looking purely at budget sometimes, and are more than willing to send development work away from the company and to the military or even to use non-TPs.
I would think that there may be many other test pilots lurking around, but they are all more than willing to let Nick, Rich, and Shawn handle all the work. (Rumor has it that they are all so old, they need to spend their time typing to stay awake......)
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Nick:
I know that Sikorsky gives a lot of respect to test pilots, and I wish others did the same.
The comment was not intended for that area, but as a comment in general that if manufacturers won't send people to this forum, how do we expect to be taken seriously as a part of the wider aviation community.
I'm going to recommend that SETP set up something that will help the individual types of aviation (my plea for a rotorcraft section fell on deaf, fighter pilot ears).
There are a lot of common problems all in flight face come across, and some of those get discussed quite nicely either during or after the formal sessions.
And you're right about part of the problem is the attitude at SETP....
I know that Sikorsky gives a lot of respect to test pilots, and I wish others did the same.
The comment was not intended for that area, but as a comment in general that if manufacturers won't send people to this forum, how do we expect to be taken seriously as a part of the wider aviation community.
I'm going to recommend that SETP set up something that will help the individual types of aviation (my plea for a rotorcraft section fell on deaf, fighter pilot ears).
There are a lot of common problems all in flight face come across, and some of those get discussed quite nicely either during or after the formal sessions.
And you're right about part of the problem is the attitude at SETP....
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Shawn,
Agreed. I do note that SETP has always been great to me, and their symposium is a very good meeting place, with lots of good technical content in the air. I have great regards for the organization, myself.
Agreed. I do note that SETP has always been great to me, and their symposium is a very good meeting place, with lots of good technical content in the air. I have great regards for the organization, myself.
I'll probably get ticked off by him if he reads this for telling tales out of school, but when he looks in from time to time Ppruner Wyvern AFSETP is that rare beast, somebody who has been CTP for both a fixed and rotary wing organisation (as well as both a fighter pilot and Special forces helicopter pilot in his youth). (Tells a mean war story as well.) Another teller of good war stories who drops in from time to time is John Farley who is rumoured to know a few things about both test flying and the hover - in or out a helicopter.
On the SETP thing, I think that increasingly organisations do not like funding SFTE and SETP attendance, it's about 5 years since my employer actually paid for me to attend one. Not a positive step I'd venture - and goes some way to explain the large military / heavy metal presence at most events. The cost of most symposia doesn't help either when either self-funding or persuading a cash-strapped budget holder to pay for it.
Incidentally, if you think it's hard getting helicopter papers published at SETP conferences - try light aircraft subjects. My paper which is now the first piece in the current Cockpit which I presented at this year's SETP/SFTE bash in London was originally declined by the conference committee, and I only got to present it because one of two F/A-22 papers dropped out.
Hopefully the idea Shawn is talking about will go some way to correct this and we can see a few less fighters, and more helicopters, light aircraft, airships - and maybe even the occasional gyroplane presence. Now there's an area where there's a lot of important work to be done !
G
On the SETP thing, I think that increasingly organisations do not like funding SFTE and SETP attendance, it's about 5 years since my employer actually paid for me to attend one. Not a positive step I'd venture - and goes some way to explain the large military / heavy metal presence at most events. The cost of most symposia doesn't help either when either self-funding or persuading a cash-strapped budget holder to pay for it.
Incidentally, if you think it's hard getting helicopter papers published at SETP conferences - try light aircraft subjects. My paper which is now the first piece in the current Cockpit which I presented at this year's SETP/SFTE bash in London was originally declined by the conference committee, and I only got to present it because one of two F/A-22 papers dropped out.
Hopefully the idea Shawn is talking about will go some way to correct this and we can see a few less fighters, and more helicopters, light aircraft, airships - and maybe even the occasional gyroplane presence. Now there's an area where there's a lot of important work to be done !
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 8th Oct 2004 at 09:42.
There are probably more of us on these forums than is obvious, so, I'll also come clean, though it's fairly obvious from some of my posts.
As for SETP, it is a wonderful institution, though sadly a more closed shop than some of the membership would want: you can still only apply for membership when actively engaged in test flying. I've been a member since 1989 and attended 7 European conferences, though I've yet to make it to the annual Californian bash. When I worked for a large UK heli operator, the company was generous enough to part sponsor me and or to count my attendence as 'duty' rather than leave, though company economies whittled the sponsorship away! Now I'm an independent I have to count the dollars myself, and finding time to attend conferences is sometimes taking out time when one could be earning. As to the 'Rotes' contributions to SETP proceedings, perhaps we're all too busy working to get round to producing papers! (Though I did manage one at a previous year's Eurobash.) I don't feel there's a bias against us; at least one recent SETP President, Lynn Hanks, is a helicopter man. And ETPS has for the past few years sent its whole rotary staff and students to the European Symposium.
It's good that such experienced hands as Nick and Shawn can regularly find the time to contribute to PPrune. Keep up the good work, chaps!
As for SETP, it is a wonderful institution, though sadly a more closed shop than some of the membership would want: you can still only apply for membership when actively engaged in test flying. I've been a member since 1989 and attended 7 European conferences, though I've yet to make it to the annual Californian bash. When I worked for a large UK heli operator, the company was generous enough to part sponsor me and or to count my attendence as 'duty' rather than leave, though company economies whittled the sponsorship away! Now I'm an independent I have to count the dollars myself, and finding time to attend conferences is sometimes taking out time when one could be earning. As to the 'Rotes' contributions to SETP proceedings, perhaps we're all too busy working to get round to producing papers! (Though I did manage one at a previous year's Eurobash.) I don't feel there's a bias against us; at least one recent SETP President, Lynn Hanks, is a helicopter man. And ETPS has for the past few years sent its whole rotary staff and students to the European Symposium.
It's good that such experienced hands as Nick and Shawn can regularly find the time to contribute to PPrune. Keep up the good work, chaps!
