Agusta A109
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
From: Asia/Oz
From the A109E RFM:
AMBIENT AIR TEMPERATURE LIMITATIONS
The minimum ambient air temperature for operation is -25°C (-13°F).
The maximum sea level ambient air temperature for operation is +45°C (113°F)
and decreases with pressure altitude at the standard lapse rate of 2°C (3.6°F) every
1000 ft (305 m) up to 20000 ft (6096 m)
AMBIENT AIR TEMPERATURE LIMITATIONS
The minimum ambient air temperature for operation is -25°C (-13°F).
The maximum sea level ambient air temperature for operation is +45°C (113°F)
and decreases with pressure altitude at the standard lapse rate of 2°C (3.6°F) every
1000 ft (305 m) up to 20000 ft (6096 m)
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
From: Asia/Oz
The LUH is based on the 109E which had the option of the Arrius engines or the Pratts. The RFM I have is for the P&W option but I assume the figures would be the same for both. The 109S (PW 207 engines) has a max operating temp of 50 degrees at sea level (ISA plus 35).
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
From: reckoning
A109 K2
Hi folks,
I am trying to find the average fuel consumption rate and the max. internal gross weight of the A109K2.
The company wants to know if its a good option putting money into one of the k2's. The high temp./ high altitude performance of the K2 is believed to be one of the best, comments?
Thanks in advance!
I am trying to find the average fuel consumption rate and the max. internal gross weight of the A109K2.
The company wants to know if its a good option putting money into one of the k2's. The high temp./ high altitude performance of the K2 is believed to be one of the best, comments?
Thanks in advance!
Last edited by captchopper; 5th June 2012 at 06:28.
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: USA
It would be impossible to say without knowing how much time is on the engine, and the idivudual timed componants as well as any damage history or exceedence history in the recorder. The last 207E I was involved with cost $330,000 thru Pratt and Whitney. That engine got new compressor turbine and power turbine discs.
There is a company in Phoenix that might be able to assist you either in the overhaul or overseeing the overhaul and making sure you don't buy too many parts that are not required to be replaced. Search for Phoenix Engine Services in Mesa Arizona and ask to talk to Doug Whitmarsh.
There is a company in Phoenix that might be able to assist you either in the overhaul or overseeing the overhaul and making sure you don't buy too many parts that are not required to be replaced. Search for Phoenix Engine Services in Mesa Arizona and ask to talk to Doug Whitmarsh.
Last edited by mfriskel; 8th August 2012 at 11:40.
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 80
Likes: 2
From: EU
Browsing the 'helicopter-ebay' for a second hand A109 IFR.
But a lot of ad's don't clearly specify IFR or VFR certified.
I guess the expert eye can see that on the equipmentlist:
but where to look for to rule out the VFR ships?
Most of the ships seem to have the AP/SAS/VOR/DME etc.
Also, should the A and C models be avoided, at any cost?
There are some nice looking lowtime older ships, but I heard
something about 'ghost' engine fire warnings and
high maintenance costs, low performance, versus the E models.
Any info appreciated!
FTF
But a lot of ad's don't clearly specify IFR or VFR certified.
I guess the expert eye can see that on the equipmentlist:
but where to look for to rule out the VFR ships?
Most of the ships seem to have the AP/SAS/VOR/DME etc.
Also, should the A and C models be avoided, at any cost?
There are some nice looking lowtime older ships, but I heard
something about 'ghost' engine fire warnings and
high maintenance costs, low performance, versus the E models.
Any info appreciated!
FTF
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Royal Leamington Spa
There are a couple of good C models in the UK just now and no, they don't need to be avoided at all costs but like its always mentioned here - get all the proper surveys done before buying.
The seller will tell you if the ship is certified for IFR and there are more than a good few outfits who can quickly tell you what it would cost to bring the helo up to IFR standard if that's whats required.
This one would be right up your street (unless of course you have the money to splash-out on an E or S). But as a two seat IFR training aircraft the C is perfect.
The seller will tell you if the ship is certified for IFR and there are more than a good few outfits who can quickly tell you what it would cost to bring the helo up to IFR standard if that's whats required.
This one would be right up your street (unless of course you have the money to splash-out on an E or S). But as a two seat IFR training aircraft the C is perfect.
Last edited by Anthony Supplebottom; 12th August 2012 at 11:10. Reason: add heli link
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 80
Likes: 2
From: EU
But as a two seat IFR training aircraft the C is perfect.
I'm working out the numbers and trying to find the limitations for different A109 variants.
I managed to scroll through the full 31 pages, which had a some good info and it's share of pprune discussion and bashing
I was surprised to find that the earlier models are practically three seaters.
(why put in the 8 seats...). So it is either E or S, my the boss has to open
his wallet a bit more then I initially told him... hmm
Also I'm not Italian build with my 1.90 meters.... hmm again.
Any more info from people, highly appriciated!
FTF
Last edited by FullTravelFree; 12th August 2012 at 14:27. Reason: typo
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Royal Leamington Spa
FTF, 5 pax, full fuel, luggage plus yourself = E model or later.
But - with all the seats full the E model is not very comfortable and you would rather consider the S.
Have you looked at the EC135 P2+ or even T2+?
But - with all the seats full the E model is not very comfortable and you would rather consider the S.
Have you looked at the EC135 P2+ or even T2+?
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
From: UK
I have flown both types. You will need an S model for IFR fuel reserves.
I agree with the previous poster the EC135 beats the pants off the 109. It may be slightly slower but is much more "pilot friendly" especially IFR. The 109 doesn't even have a chart holder and Alt Aquire mode so has to be monitored and hand flown much more than the 135.
I agree with the previous poster the EC135 beats the pants off the 109. It may be slightly slower but is much more "pilot friendly" especially IFR. The 109 doesn't even have a chart holder and Alt Aquire mode so has to be monitored and hand flown much more than the 135.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
From: London
I would be surprised if the EC135 "beats the pants off" the A109S but willing to compare real world figures as opposed to marketing bumpf.
As an indication in the UK there are 28 corporately operated A109E/S/SP versus 7 EC135s so I would guess that would give you a clue to the more capable machine for corporate transport.
Wombat, as a comparison, can you calculate the performance of an EC135 for FTF’s request:
To keep it simple how far could both fly, and how quickly, with 30 minutes reserve?
1 pilot at 90kgs
5 pax at 90kgs
30kgs of luggage
Class 1 from an elevated heliport (such as Battersea) ISA conditions.
For one of our Grands:
3175kg MTOW Class 1 Elevated Helipad
Aircraft empty weight 2186kg
Less 570 for Crew, Pax and luggage
Leaves 419 kg for fuel.
Take 100kg off for the 30 minute reserve leaves 319kg which will keep you flying for an 1hr27 mins at 150 knots and therefore give you a range of 217nm.
So in answer to FTF’s question the Grand will go 217nm in 1hr27 minutes with 1+5 pax with luggage.
FTF if you need a cofg calculator for the Grand or Power please send me a PM.
Oh and you do have to buy a kneepad to hold your chart and it really could do with altitude acquire mode (standard in the SP) but otherwise the autopilot is pretty good.
Bilbo
As an indication in the UK there are 28 corporately operated A109E/S/SP versus 7 EC135s so I would guess that would give you a clue to the more capable machine for corporate transport.
Wombat, as a comparison, can you calculate the performance of an EC135 for FTF’s request:
To keep it simple how far could both fly, and how quickly, with 30 minutes reserve?
1 pilot at 90kgs
5 pax at 90kgs
30kgs of luggage
Class 1 from an elevated heliport (such as Battersea) ISA conditions.
For one of our Grands:
3175kg MTOW Class 1 Elevated Helipad
Aircraft empty weight 2186kg
Less 570 for Crew, Pax and luggage
Leaves 419 kg for fuel.
Take 100kg off for the 30 minute reserve leaves 319kg which will keep you flying for an 1hr27 mins at 150 knots and therefore give you a range of 217nm.
So in answer to FTF’s question the Grand will go 217nm in 1hr27 minutes with 1+5 pax with luggage.
FTF if you need a cofg calculator for the Grand or Power please send me a PM.
Oh and you do have to buy a kneepad to hold your chart and it really could do with altitude acquire mode (standard in the SP) but otherwise the autopilot is pretty good.
Bilbo
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 80
Likes: 2
From: EU
Thanks gents, for numbers and comparisons.
In the wealthy people's world, looks are very important.
We dont wont to look like a policecar or ambulance, we want to
be Italian sportscar
(that 'we' doesn't include me though)
Most flights here will be VFR, because of availability of instrument approaches.
The IFR bit comes into play when going abroad and crossing some mountain ranges.
This whole research (mind you, this is just research for now) came from a recent flight when we had a 40kts tailwind,
and I told him that this is the 'normal' cruise of a 109. He liked it a lot, was smiling all the way.
Also our current ship will go to it's 12 year next summer. Good time for an upgrade I'd say!
...already got it 
FTF
In the wealthy people's world, looks are very important.
We dont wont to look like a policecar or ambulance, we want to
be Italian sportscar
(that 'we' doesn't include me though)Most flights here will be VFR, because of availability of instrument approaches.
The IFR bit comes into play when going abroad and crossing some mountain ranges.
This whole research (mind you, this is just research for now) came from a recent flight when we had a 40kts tailwind,
and I told him that this is the 'normal' cruise of a 109. He liked it a lot, was smiling all the way.
Also our current ship will go to it's 12 year next summer. Good time for an upgrade I'd say!
Oh and you do have to buy a kneepad to hold your chart
FTF
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1,605
Likes: 6
From: UK
The 135 can have an aux tank fitted into the boot, don't know if the 109 can, I thought all 109s were IFR?
Also we now have the 135 "e" available...
135 corporate ship cruises 140kts plus.
I think the 109 is so popular due to it's looks and fashion.
A 135 with a snazzy paint-job won't look like Police/Hems...
I am also told the 109 is maintenance heavy whereas the 135 is maintenance light 2hr 100hr service followed by 5day 500hr Service and 10 day 100hr service.
I stand corrected at any time.
Also we now have the 135 "e" available...
135 corporate ship cruises 140kts plus.
I think the 109 is so popular due to it's looks and fashion.
A 135 with a snazzy paint-job won't look like Police/Hems...
I am also told the 109 is maintenance heavy whereas the 135 is maintenance light 2hr 100hr service followed by 5day 500hr Service and 10 day 100hr service.
I stand corrected at any time.
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
From: Europe
Aircraft comparison
Last edited by espresso drinker; 13th August 2012 at 14:24. Reason: poor link
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 15,110
Likes: 1,083
From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
As I said I have flown both types and find the 135 much more pilot friendly.
140 kts? That's the gear limiting speed of a 109. We have to slow down from the cruise to 140 kts to put the gear down as airbrakes.
And who ever heard of a corporate aircraft with skids?
