Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Rotorheads
Reload this Page >

Agusta A109

Rotorheads A haven for helicopter professionals to discuss the things that affect them

Agusta A109

Old 12th Oct 2017, 09:00
  #681 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 533
Yeah, I know. But this weird limitations configuration doesn’t work on the planning part. You cannot plan your MCP TQ for something the way Agusta wants in the flight manual.

Last edited by Phoinix; 16th Oct 2017 at 19:37.
Phoinix is offline  
Old 16th Oct 2017, 19:39
  #682 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 533
So, any Agusta 109 drivers out there to clear the topic?
How to plan a flight with TQ margin if the TQ doesn't have the MCP range at all, but the charts for T/O and MCP power exist (MCP for TOT and N1 limit only)?
Like one pilot said: "we never have power related issues". But I don't buy that, every helicopter has power issues that we need to plan for.
Phoinix is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2017, 05:27
  #683 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 620
Surely if you want to ensure a power margin, you calculate the max all up mass for hover OGE in the given conditions, and then you reduce the mass by whatever margin you require. eg, if you want a 5% thrust margin at 3000kg, you will ensure your mass is 150kg below the max.
Non-PC Plod is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2017, 05:45
  #684 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 533
Again, not the point. Ok... I give up. So Agusta never runs out of power, period.
Phoinix is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2017, 10:20
  #685 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 620
Maybe you are not explaining your point clearly enough? Clearly Agusta will run out of power like any machine. The Hover OGE graph tells you when that will be. It just doesnt tell you whether the limiting factor will be Tq N1 or TOT. Does that matter? Most more modern aircraft provide you with a "PI" or first limit indicator which tells you when you get to the limit on any of the parameters. It doesnt make much difference to me which one it is.
Non-PC Plod is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2019, 14:06
  #686 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Harwich
Age: 61
Posts: 735
Agusta A109

G-OPEN B206 enters cloud in challenging weather, distraction?

G-FRRN A109SP starts up at Battersea with rotor brake on

G-MACA R22 in hover loses control in gust of wind, strikes ground

Hilico is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2019, 18:37
  #687 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 12,577
The Agusta 109 rotor brake control is a badly thought out design, certainly in the way that it's not pilot proof, as this one discovered.

As the report states, the handle on the left side of the overhead panel is fairly small and is partly hidden by the ECLs. The latter are normally left in the "Flight" position at all times (engines are started and stopped using the controls on the centre console) so there is no need for putting one's hand up to move them - which might be a further prompt to notice where the brake handle is.

The utility hydraulic pressure for the rotor brake tends to bleed away after shutdown, as does that of the parking brakes (it's important to chock a 109 if you want it to be where you parked it on a slope when you return).
If there's no utility pressure the rotors will begin to turn quite normally on start up despite the brake handle still being in the "ON" position. However, as the rotors begin to turn, the hydraulic pump re-pressurises the utility system and the brake comes on again all by itself, harder and harder... say no more!

I never leave the rotor brake handle "ON" for this reason. I know of one pilot some years ago who started his first A109 job in the morning, inadvertently left the rotor brake on for a subsequent startup and was looking for another job by the end of the afternoon.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 16th Mar 2019, 19:56
  #688 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Harwich
Age: 61
Posts: 735
I was a little surprised to see that flying SP in the 109 a checklist is not used. There may be a good reason for that, SPIFRs might be able to tell me. As it is, I barely fasten my seatbelt without referring to the checklist (the rotor brake is on it, and much easier to see in the a/c Iím training on).
Hilico is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2019, 09:30
  #689 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 620
"The AW109SP is designed to be flown by a single pilot and the checks are generally performed from memory without reference to a written checklist."

I think this phrase is an unhelpful generalisation. The checks are clearly listed in the RFM. When conducting training on the factory course, every student will use a checklist. If an operator chooses to dispense with checklists, then it is their own lookout, as it opens them up to exactly this sort of error. I would like to know on what evidence the AAIB has decided this is the norm?

Non-PC Plod is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2019, 11:52
  #690 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 12,577
In forty years of aviation, I've never had the privilege of a factory course, on any type I've flown.
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2019, 15:02
  #691 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: england
Posts: 49
I was a little surprised to see that flying SP in the 109 a checklist is not used
Not sure if it's still the case, but the owner's previous aircraft (a 355N) was flown almost exclusively by one pilot, day in day out and was private use only. If it's the same with the 109, it could explain no checklist as the pilot would be so familiar with it, and would (usually) know exactly how the aircraft had been left from it's previous flight (e.g. rotor brake on/off etc)
heli14 is online now  
Old 17th Mar 2019, 16:54
  #692 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 620
heli 14. I am sure you are right. But it just proves the point why most commercial operators would always use checklists.
Non-PC Plod is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2019, 16:58
  #693 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 620
Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
In forty years of aviation, I've never had the privilege of a factory course, on any type I've flown.
I can only comment on the courses I am familiar with. I have no idea whether most other training schools would teach you to use a checklist. I would hope they do, as CRM and TEM are supposed to be integrated at all stages of training, and use of a checklist is probably the most basic form of error management imaginable.
Non-PC Plod is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2019, 20:37
  #694 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Warrington, UK
Posts: 3,459
After an incident where someone started with the rotor brake on, we adopted the procedure where if the brake was left on after shutdown, then a cover was put on the cyclic.
MightyGem is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2019, 21:51
  #695 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: London
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
The Agusta 109 rotor brake control is a badly thought out design, certainly in the way that it's not pilot proof, as this one discovered.
You can't even start a Robinson R22 with the rotor brake on
rr84c is offline  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 02:21
  #696 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 472
Nor a 44, as it has a starter motor interlock on the rotor brake. Not sure about the 66, but I'd guess it's the same. It's always a bit embarrassing when you make that mistake in the 44, but thankfully that's all it is.
aa777888 is online now  
Old 18th Mar 2019, 08:36
  #697 (permalink)  

Avoid imitations
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 12,577
Originally Posted by rr84c View Post
You can't even start a Robinson R22 with the rotor brake on
Precisely. But then, who would want to start one up anyway?
ShyTorque is offline  
Old 27th Aug 2019, 01:25
  #698 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Maitland
Posts: 126
Sorry if this has been asked before, but, can anyone give me the OEI fuel burn in the cruise for a A109E P&W 206C engines. I've looked at the RFM and can find nothing.
The new fuel requirements thing here is wanting me to know what fuel I'll need if I have a single engine failure at critical point in a flight to make it to my destination or an alternate plus 15 minutes dicking around above the aerodrome then landing. Why a VFR aircraft is going to hang around for 15 minutes before I land I don't know. Typical of the rubbish produced from Canberra.
McGowan is offline  
Old 27th Aug 2019, 07:12
  #699 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: ...in view of the 'Southern Cross' ...
Posts: 1,379
Mmmm ...

How long have you been flying that thing ? ...
spinwing is offline  
Old 27th Aug 2019, 07:57
  #700 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Out West
Posts: 295
But it just proves the point why most commercial operators would always use checklists.
Bristow do start-up checks from memory on more complex helicopters than the 109. A flow pattern, regularity and practice helps but if I need a checklist to remind me to do up my seat belt then it is possibly time to give it up!
Same again is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.