Agusta A109
Join Date: Apr 2003
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Big Splash made a very good point in a very dramatic way!
I do not thiink any serial killers inhabit pprune, waiting to guide pilots into the rocks with false advice. The free advice here is often from floks who know why procedures are the way they are, and that is quite valuable and not at all deadly.
I do always recommend using approved procedures, though, so darn it, Splash is basically correct.
Let us know what the Factory recommends, Seaking, ok?
I do not thiink any serial killers inhabit pprune, waiting to guide pilots into the rocks with false advice. The free advice here is often from floks who know why procedures are the way they are, and that is quite valuable and not at all deadly.
I do always recommend using approved procedures, though, so darn it, Splash is basically correct.
Let us know what the Factory recommends, Seaking, ok?
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SASless said, After all the price costs of the advice here is quite reasonable.
How does that quote go? "Free advice is usually worth what you've paid for it"?
You're right SASless, filter the info, don't rely on it. I've learned quite a bit from this site, but could easily have been led astray.
As far as the A109 Engine Mode Switches, I'll be looking at them in a couple weeks so will have something more specific to say then. In general, they are supposed to balance the desire to autorotate without the engine providing power with the desire to have the engine come on line when you do need the power. I'd expect the manufacturer will have a convincing argument of why you'd want to use the "Engine Mode Switches".
Just my thoughts,
How does that quote go? "Free advice is usually worth what you've paid for it"?
You're right SASless, filter the info, don't rely on it. I've learned quite a bit from this site, but could easily have been led astray.
As far as the A109 Engine Mode Switches, I'll be looking at them in a couple weeks so will have something more specific to say then. In general, they are supposed to balance the desire to autorotate without the engine providing power with the desire to have the engine come on line when you do need the power. I'd expect the manufacturer will have a convincing argument of why you'd want to use the "Engine Mode Switches".
Just my thoughts,
Join Date: Jan 2003
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Begs the question........
Yes, having done full touchdowns in the 109E - Mode Switches are the primary method of simulating a failure. The Power levers should NOT be used as this is a manual mode function. Also as an aside you cannot move them fast without destroying the trim motor units inside them.
If you think about it power recovery is no different than other turbine powered machines.
Also you have to consider that it is a pre-meditated operation, why would it get so bad that you would need a power recovery if you were intending to do a full touchdown. At some point you are committed to a touchdown and by then the addition of power probably will not help.
Both engines in manual is no big deal either.
If you think about it power recovery is no different than other turbine powered machines.
Also you have to consider that it is a pre-meditated operation, why would it get so bad that you would need a power recovery if you were intending to do a full touchdown. At some point you are committed to a touchdown and by then the addition of power probably will not help.
Both engines in manual is no big deal either.
Join Date: Oct 2003
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Wait for the Flight Sim! It'll be easier and less expensive.....as in you don't hurt no one including yourself!
Now if you are just practising OEI and TDP/LDP confusion....which is a sympton of botched OEI profiles....................knock yourself out...'scuse the pun! But don't turn both switches at the same time......not unless you have hours and hours of 109 time...and it's your heli to mess around with, or Yes, YOU are that guy who signs the schedule on the CofA......
Now if you are just practising OEI and TDP/LDP confusion....which is a sympton of botched OEI profiles....................knock yourself out...'scuse the pun! But don't turn both switches at the same time......not unless you have hours and hours of 109 time...and it's your heli to mess around with, or Yes, YOU are that guy who signs the schedule on the CofA......
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Opps Big Splash, please don't get the wrong end of the stick. Technical advise on PPrune is not what i am after, only perspectives on what it feels like
This is an unusual setup in the cockpit compared to what i am used to, eg no tripple taco, not using the power levers, switches!!!
single pilot
television sets with even more buttons, etc.
interested to see that Giovanni is going all the way to the ground! it has a very low bottom and only about 5* pitch on the ADI seems about max.
Of course the only way to operate any aircraft is the way that the manufacturer, and by implication better brains than mine, says.
This is an unusual setup in the cockpit compared to what i am used to, eg no tripple taco, not using the power levers, switches!!!
single pilot television sets with even more buttons, etc.interested to see that Giovanni is going all the way to the ground! it has a very low bottom and only about 5* pitch on the ADI seems about max.
Of course the only way to operate any aircraft is the way that the manufacturer, and by implication better brains than mine, says.
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Seaking
Did the conversion at Vergiate where the things are made.
Fly with a production test pilot - they probably know the aircraft better than anyone.
Cat A clear, vertical, full down, dual failure in the hover, no big deal. And our aircraft does not have TRAINING.
Big thing to be aware of in the 109 is the number of different methods available to cage the wrong one when you have to.
Fly with a production test pilot - they probably know the aircraft better than anyone.
Cat A clear, vertical, full down, dual failure in the hover, no big deal. And our aircraft does not have TRAINING.
Big thing to be aware of in the 109 is the number of different methods available to cage the wrong one when you have to.
Join Date: Jun 2003
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Agusta 119 concerns
My agency is seriously considering the purchase of an A119 "Koala" for law enforcement operations.
We hear many rumours about the tail rotor (requiring frequent inspections/maintenance) and noticeable vibrations when operating between 40 and 60 knots. These vibrations have allegedly caused other A119 operators quite a headache with electronics and lighting problems.
Does anyone have any additional insight or information?
Is there a similar vibration in the A109?
All thoughts and input are appreciated.
We hear many rumours about the tail rotor (requiring frequent inspections/maintenance) and noticeable vibrations when operating between 40 and 60 knots. These vibrations have allegedly caused other A119 operators quite a headache with electronics and lighting problems.
Does anyone have any additional insight or information?
Is there a similar vibration in the A109?
All thoughts and input are appreciated.
If I remember correctly, there is a Service Bulletin that replaces the metal blades with composite ones of a different design. Pretty sure this cancels the inspection requirement. You'll know a machine with the composite blades, they look very "different".
noooby
noooby
Join Date: Mar 2002
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Hammer Headed is technically correct in what he says but I disagree with the comment that a new Koala will be practically trouble free. I don't know of such a beast and were you to get one for Police work I suspect it would have it's fair share of related problems.
I flew and operated one of two in the UK and was quietly pleased with it's general performance. My only concern for your type of Operations would be prolonged periods working over built up areas. The Koala is not blessed with the autorotative capability that inspires confidence in order to find that all so elusive clear area to land safely if the donkey stops!.
Chris 192, If you need more info drop me a PM.
I flew and operated one of two in the UK and was quietly pleased with it's general performance. My only concern for your type of Operations would be prolonged periods working over built up areas. The Koala is not blessed with the autorotative capability that inspires confidence in order to find that all so elusive clear area to land safely if the donkey stops!.
Chris 192, If you need more info drop me a PM.
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HH
Never crossed my mind, just disagreed with your comment! Incidentally the Koala has a specific rumble over and above ETL when transitioning to the hover. For a long time we thought this was a 4R but it was only after a bit of digging around that I found the two vibration attenuation absorbers were contacting the bulkhead (minor damage) at low speed and the cause of the vib. So I guess that's specific to the 119.
Regards & safe flying.
Never crossed my mind, just disagreed with your comment! Incidentally the Koala has a specific rumble over and above ETL when transitioning to the hover. For a long time we thought this was a 4R but it was only after a bit of digging around that I found the two vibration attenuation absorbers were contacting the bulkhead (minor damage) at low speed and the cause of the vib. So I guess that's specific to the 119.
Regards & safe flying.
When an a/c is purchased, I for one would devote a considerable amount of my research to looking at logistics, support etc. What is the point of buying an ABC 138T1 when it takes 2 days to supply a spare engine, or engineers can't get to you for atleast 8-10 hours??
Vhris 192 - why is NY buying a Koala? Whats wrong with your indigenous models??????
Vhris 192 - why is NY buying a Koala? Whats wrong with your indigenous models??????
Join Date: Apr 2004
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I fly both a119 and a109e in the ems role and they are excellent single patient machines.
Both helos have bags of power.
After some initial, relatively minor developmental snags the machines now suffer little downtime. New tailrotor kit (not just blades) is on the way.
Agusta support is excellent and their attitude to the customer is much better than their european cousins.
gags
e86
Both helos have bags of power.
After some initial, relatively minor developmental snags the machines now suffer little downtime. New tailrotor kit (not just blades) is on the way.
Agusta support is excellent and their attitude to the customer is much better than their european cousins.
gags
e86
Join Date: Feb 2001
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A109 Increased Mauw
A109 Power Gains From Increased Take-Off Weight and Reduced Maintenance
EASA and FAA certification for an increased internal gross weight of 3,000 kg has now been obtained for PW206C powered version of the AgustaWestland A109 Power, giving nearly 150 kg of extra payload. Existing A109 Power aircraft can also benefit from the increased internal gross weight by incorporation of minor modifications that include landing gear strengthening.
At the end of May 2005 AgustaWestland issued a new maintenance program for the A109 Power helicopter based on the extensive operational and maintenance experience accrued to date. The new maintenance programme has extended service intervals and deleted many existing requirements, thereby reducing the maintenance requirements and operating costs of the aircraft. Existing operators of the A109 Power can easily transition to the new maintenance programme while new aircraft are already benefiting from the new programme.
An all new composite tail rotor blade design has now been introduced on all new build A109 Power helicopters and can be retrofitted to existing aircraft as a replacement for the metal tail rotor blades. The composite tail rotor blades require less maintenance, have five times the certified life of the of the metal blades and additionally feature a reduced noise signature, due to their advanced -airfoil.
The first Grand ,I believe has been delivered in UK? Just inquisitive about the EEW (VIP ship)vis a vis New 2175 Kgs MAUW?
Secondly the fuel payload has been reduced on the Grand with new PW 207 Engines...is the Fuel burn (Kgs/hr)more or less?
Regards
EASA and FAA certification for an increased internal gross weight of 3,000 kg has now been obtained for PW206C powered version of the AgustaWestland A109 Power, giving nearly 150 kg of extra payload. Existing A109 Power aircraft can also benefit from the increased internal gross weight by incorporation of minor modifications that include landing gear strengthening.
At the end of May 2005 AgustaWestland issued a new maintenance program for the A109 Power helicopter based on the extensive operational and maintenance experience accrued to date. The new maintenance programme has extended service intervals and deleted many existing requirements, thereby reducing the maintenance requirements and operating costs of the aircraft. Existing operators of the A109 Power can easily transition to the new maintenance programme while new aircraft are already benefiting from the new programme.
An all new composite tail rotor blade design has now been introduced on all new build A109 Power helicopters and can be retrofitted to existing aircraft as a replacement for the metal tail rotor blades. The composite tail rotor blades require less maintenance, have five times the certified life of the of the metal blades and additionally feature a reduced noise signature, due to their advanced -airfoil.
The first Grand ,I believe has been delivered in UK? Just inquisitive about the EEW (VIP ship)vis a vis New 2175 Kgs MAUW?
Secondly the fuel payload has been reduced on the Grand with new PW 207 Engines...is the Fuel burn (Kgs/hr)more or less?
Regards
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The Agusta 109 POwer had approval for a max all up mass increase of 150 kg a while back, but it's not cheap. The problem is that the old main undercarriage was not strong enough to absorb the landing force if rejecting from a Category A take off at MAUM. The cost of replacing the existing landing gear is around $150,000, plus the minor structural modifications and labour. About $1,000 per kg. I don't know what the waiting time would be for a new undercarriage either - I hear Agusta are no better than Eurocopter when it comes to waiting time for spares.
If the Grand is anything like the Power, the PW206s burn a lot of fuel. Depending on weight, altitude and temperature the fuel burn for a 140 kts cruise will be between 210 - 240 kg per hour (more if you operate in a climate where you need to use the ECS (= cheap aircon). The fuel burn and limited payload when carrying required fuel for any decent length of trip is what cided my company against operating it some years back. Pretty - but flawed . As Nick would probably say, you have to pay something for its good single engine performance, and that's fuel burn.
If the Grand is anything like the Power, the PW206s burn a lot of fuel. Depending on weight, altitude and temperature the fuel burn for a 140 kts cruise will be between 210 - 240 kg per hour (more if you operate in a climate where you need to use the ECS (= cheap aircon). The fuel burn and limited payload when carrying required fuel for any decent length of trip is what cided my company against operating it some years back. Pretty - but flawed . As Nick would probably say, you have to pay something for its good single engine performance, and that's fuel burn.
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..... I seem to get 140 kts indicated easy at 75%Tq, ECS on, SL with a burn of 190 to 195 kg per hour. At max weight.
And if I get up above 4 or 5000 usually get the burn back to 180 kg per hour.
The best figure is at 7000 or above with the burn right back at 160 to 170 kg per hour haveing said that you do come back to about 125 to 130 kts but the gain is TAS usualy gets you to around 145kts.....plus the breeze and we had 197kts.
Mate we are real happy with the 109, support has been spot on, yes full fuel and passenger requirements get a bit painful but hey what else will fit the bill, low maintenance, speed, looks, comfort and so far reliable.
And if I get up above 4 or 5000 usually get the burn back to 180 kg per hour.
The best figure is at 7000 or above with the burn right back at 160 to 170 kg per hour haveing said that you do come back to about 125 to 130 kts but the gain is TAS usualy gets you to around 145kts.....plus the breeze and we had 197kts.
Mate we are real happy with the 109, support has been spot on, yes full fuel and passenger requirements get a bit painful but hey what else will fit the bill, low maintenance, speed, looks, comfort and so far reliable.
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oxi,
Your machine is obviously very different from ours. PW206 engines, near max gross at around 6250 lbs, 1,000 ft, around 95 degrees (F of course!), ECS on, 80% torque gives around 140 knots, but fuel burn is around 520 lbs (235 kg) an hour and the ECS struggles to keep the passengers cool. With the extra fuel tanks the cabin is crowded as all the passengers legs get entangled, and if it rains you need an umbrella inside!
.
For my money, I'd sell it, get a second-hand S76 and use the extra money to pay the increased maintenance and leasing charges. At least it also flies at 140 kts, and carries more passengers in greater comfort over a much longer range, with a proper aircon that works. I guess my boss will just look at the economics though
Your machine is obviously very different from ours. PW206 engines, near max gross at around 6250 lbs, 1,000 ft, around 95 degrees (F of course!), ECS on, 80% torque gives around 140 knots, but fuel burn is around 520 lbs (235 kg) an hour and the ECS struggles to keep the passengers cool. With the extra fuel tanks the cabin is crowded as all the passengers legs get entangled, and if it rains you need an umbrella inside!
. For my money, I'd sell it, get a second-hand S76 and use the extra money to pay the increased maintenance and leasing charges. At least it also flies at 140 kts, and carries more passengers in greater comfort over a much longer range, with a proper aircon that works. I guess my boss will just look at the economics though
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Captain Buck
Your machine seems to a bit of an alcoholic.
I have the same figures approx as OXI
At 80% I burn 200kgs max going to 210 with the Aircon
I must admit we operate around 59F but around 2000pa
I also agree the ECS isn’t up to much but at 95F it must be a struggle.
Look at the bright side you dont have to share the back with the passengers.
Your machine seems to a bit of an alcoholic.
I have the same figures approx as OXI
At 80% I burn 200kgs max going to 210 with the Aircon
I must admit we operate around 59F but around 2000pa
I also agree the ECS isn’t up to much but at 95F it must be a struggle.
Look at the bright side you dont have to share the back with the passengers.