GoM crash 38th since 2000 (Merged threads)
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Great discussion...
I've been following this thread with interest, but I don't have anything to contribute. Why doesn't PHPA commission this kind of study? You won't be able to get what you need from the NTSB database... this one takes leg work and a statistician to make sure outlyers and distractors don't scew the meat and potatoes. The data is there and some important questions could be answered. That kind of study shouldn't be too expensive to accomplish.
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Of course it was careless of me not to qualify that my statement was made on the basis of a moving average - not a single year. As has been said statistics can be manipulated; for example the width of the averaging window could be used to elimate (or include) significant data. The Chinook accident has been used to illustrate a point in a previous post but the UK CAA uses a data window of 10 years - that accident has therefore not featured for a significant number of reports. Arrival of buses is also not an analogy that I would use - the whole reason for moving averages is to smooth the data. Could it be because of the rising trend of accidents that attention is being focused on the GOM. Fatal accident rates are not reported on the basis of numbers of passengers carried - although that methodology has been used recently in an attempt to legimise the use of singles. Fact is that with the small number of hours flown by helicopters, skewing is always present. (The reason that the fatal accident rate has not significantly improved in the UK North Sea over the last couple of years is that as the Puma moved out of the (10 year) window the S76 moved in (but there were still only two fatals in that 10 years)).
My curiosity is aroused by your questioning of the OGP in their data collection and reporting. Whilst they do use the ICAO/FAA/CAA definition of serious incident and accident, the quality of their data and analysis for the GOM is better than that of the FAA/NTSB - whilst Mr Tucker can tell you what the 5 year moving average accident rate per 100,000 hours is, the FAA/NTSB definitely could not - unlike some other countries the US has no requirement to report usage. Where there might be a discussion of the representation of incidents/accidents is the removal from the analysis of engine failures that result in a ditching - not reported in the accident figures in accordance with the ICAO/FAA definition (which does need to be addressed to include engine failures in singles).
As we have heard from Nick Lappos, the safety of the more modern FAR 29 aircraft has been enhance by the requirement for a design assessment of the dynamic parts, and the introduction of fault tolerance (neither required on FAR 27 singles). That, and the gradual introduction of Vibration Health Monitoring, should ensure that the single point of failure problem is reduced on these sophisticated helicopters.
I would also disagree that the use of more sophisticated aircraft and the required levels of skill and training could lead to an increasing number of accidents (unless your comment is specifically addressing maintenance). One of the points made by Nick and others is that the increase in complexity should not lead to an increase in workload; this and the extensive use of CRM in multi-crewed helicopters should make it easier to fly and not the reverse (like some others on this thread, my skin has also been saved by the two crew concept). I would qualify your statement about singles being safer than twins and might say that their use could be more appropriate for some activities.
However for me one of the most important statements made on this thread was by Hippolite
to which I heartily subscribe.
My curiosity is aroused by your questioning of the OGP in their data collection and reporting. Whilst they do use the ICAO/FAA/CAA definition of serious incident and accident, the quality of their data and analysis for the GOM is better than that of the FAA/NTSB - whilst Mr Tucker can tell you what the 5 year moving average accident rate per 100,000 hours is, the FAA/NTSB definitely could not - unlike some other countries the US has no requirement to report usage. Where there might be a discussion of the representation of incidents/accidents is the removal from the analysis of engine failures that result in a ditching - not reported in the accident figures in accordance with the ICAO/FAA definition (which does need to be addressed to include engine failures in singles).
As we have heard from Nick Lappos, the safety of the more modern FAR 29 aircraft has been enhance by the requirement for a design assessment of the dynamic parts, and the introduction of fault tolerance (neither required on FAR 27 singles). That, and the gradual introduction of Vibration Health Monitoring, should ensure that the single point of failure problem is reduced on these sophisticated helicopters.
I would also disagree that the use of more sophisticated aircraft and the required levels of skill and training could lead to an increasing number of accidents (unless your comment is specifically addressing maintenance). One of the points made by Nick and others is that the increase in complexity should not lead to an increase in workload; this and the extensive use of CRM in multi-crewed helicopters should make it easier to fly and not the reverse (like some others on this thread, my skin has also been saved by the two crew concept). I would qualify your statement about singles being safer than twins and might say that their use could be more appropriate for some activities.
However for me one of the most important statements made on this thread was by Hippolite
Strict enforement of weather minima through operational control, adherence to standard procedures and SOP, helideck regulation, improved weather reporting and communications will go a long way to improving Single Engine accident rates in the GOM. Singles should be able to safely operate in a benign environment within a certain distance from the beach under the majority of weather conditions. For those areas and conditions which fall outside certain parameters, twins should be used with 2 pilots.
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GOM crash #39 today
A 206B based out of Cameron went down. A/c sank, pilot and pax were "ok" . A/c was owned by American Helicopters (omni energy).
Also heard that Rotorcraft found and is recovering the rest of the 206l that went down last week.
RB
Also heard that Rotorcraft found and is recovering the rest of the 206l that went down last week.
RB
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Officials release name of pilot in Saturday’s crash
July 21, 2004
LAFAYETTE — A pilot missing since his helicopter crashed Saturday morning in the Gulf of Mexico has been identified as Edwin Dixon, of Nederland, Texas, according to his employer.
Officials didn’t release the name until relatives could be notified. The helicopter went down in the Gulf south of Cameron Parish while Dixon was returning to shore.
The U.S. Coast Guard called off its search on Sunday, but the company that owned the helicopter, Rotorcraft Leasing in Broussard, is continuing to search for the man’s body and wreckage.
“It’s like looking for a needle in haystack,” said Rotorcraft general manager Gerry Golden.
A dive boat and a boat equipped with sonar equipment are searching the area where the helicopter is believed to have gone down, Golden said. He said Dixon has flown with Rotorcraft since 2000.
“He was a very experienced guy,” Dixon said.
Federal safety investigators are just beginning the work of trying to determine what caused the crash. A report on the incident isn’t expected for several months.
July 21, 2004
LAFAYETTE — A pilot missing since his helicopter crashed Saturday morning in the Gulf of Mexico has been identified as Edwin Dixon, of Nederland, Texas, according to his employer.
Officials didn’t release the name until relatives could be notified. The helicopter went down in the Gulf south of Cameron Parish while Dixon was returning to shore.
The U.S. Coast Guard called off its search on Sunday, but the company that owned the helicopter, Rotorcraft Leasing in Broussard, is continuing to search for the man’s body and wreckage.
“It’s like looking for a needle in haystack,” said Rotorcraft general manager Gerry Golden.
A dive boat and a boat equipped with sonar equipment are searching the area where the helicopter is believed to have gone down, Golden said. He said Dixon has flown with Rotorcraft since 2000.
“He was a very experienced guy,” Dixon said.
Federal safety investigators are just beginning the work of trying to determine what caused the crash. A report on the incident isn’t expected for several months.
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Hey Guys, just heard another aircraft down in the GOM, it was a Bell 206B, had engine failure, autorotated, pax and crew ok. (well done that man)! Now what was that that was said earlier about single engine over water?
Fatigue
Fatigue
All right....now lets hear the argument why a single engine public transport aircraft flying over water is the right answer! Why should passengers be exposed to that risk....say in January....water temperature about 55 degrees...45 minutes before dark....sea state about 6-9 feet....and 150 nm' s offshore while enroute to the far side of the field....and no exposure suits, personal Sarbe's.....lets say the Coast Guard launches immediately.....and arrives directly overhead the site an hour and a half later.....and your wonderful yellow life jacket battery powered light has malfunctioned....or after turning turtle....everyone got out but got scattered down wind/down current....oh...and your postion report was ten minutes old.
Care to tell me what your chances of surviving are?
Care to tell me what your chances of surviving are?
How long do some of these 206's go between good daily inspections by licensed mechanics? In the old days...mechanics went with the aircraft just like pilots...then the move was to roving mechanics...now...the aircraft and pilots sit on the offshore platforms for a week or two at a time without seeing a mechanic. Is that as it should be?
How many of these crashes are due to mechanical failure...and how many to bad fuel...or pilot error? A good statistical analysis would be revealing I think.
How many of these crashes are due to mechanical failure...and how many to bad fuel...or pilot error? A good statistical analysis would be revealing I think.
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I think this is the same accident:
source
PATTERSON, La. The U-S Coast Guard says two men on a helicopter that crashed today into the water 20 miles southeast of here were rescued.
The Coast Guard says the oil company helicopter crashed this morning because of motor problems shortly after taking off from the Abbeville Airport.
The Coast Guard says that before crashing from a height of 3,000 feet, the helicopter had just enough time to make a mayday call. The helicopter managed to make a controlled landing on the water, which allowed the men to get onto a life raft.
A Coast Guard helicopter was dispatched from New Orleans and picked them up. The two men were reportedly in good condition.
The Coast Guard says the oil company helicopter crashed this morning because of motor problems shortly after taking off from the Abbeville Airport.
The Coast Guard says that before crashing from a height of 3,000 feet, the helicopter had just enough time to make a mayday call. The helicopter managed to make a controlled landing on the water, which allowed the men to get onto a life raft.
A Coast Guard helicopter was dispatched from New Orleans and picked them up. The two men were reportedly in good condition.
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I'm losing count!
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 3195S Make/Model: B206 Description: BELL 206B HELICOPTER
Date: 07/24/2004 Time: 1225
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: ABBEVILLE State: LA Country: US
DESCRIPTION
BELL 206L-3 HELICOPTER, WHILE IN CRUISE FLIGHT AT 3000FT, ENGING LOST POWER
AND AUTO-ROTATED INTO THE GULF OF MEXICO, NO INJURIES REPORTED TO THE FOUR
PERSONS ON BOARD, 2927/9137, GULF OF MEXICO, OFF COAST OF ABBEVILLE, LA
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 3 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: NOT REPORTED
OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Cruise Operation: General Aviation
Departed: ABBVILLE, LA Dep Date: 07/24/2004 Dep. Time: 1200
Destination: EI32F Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: N
Last Radio Cont: NONE
Last Clearance: NONE
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 3195S Make/Model: B206 Description: BELL 206B HELICOPTER
Date: 07/24/2004 Time: 1225
Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Minor
LOCATION
City: ABBEVILLE State: LA Country: US
DESCRIPTION
BELL 206L-3 HELICOPTER, WHILE IN CRUISE FLIGHT AT 3000FT, ENGING LOST POWER
AND AUTO-ROTATED INTO THE GULF OF MEXICO, NO INJURIES REPORTED TO THE FOUR
PERSONS ON BOARD, 2927/9137, GULF OF MEXICO, OFF COAST OF ABBEVILLE, LA
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 3 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
WEATHER: NOT REPORTED
OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Cruise Operation: General Aviation
Departed: ABBVILLE, LA Dep Date: 07/24/2004 Dep. Time: 1200
Destination: EI32F Flt Plan: NONE Wx Briefing: N
Last Radio Cont: NONE
Last Clearance: NONE
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According to an industry insider RUMOUR has it that there may have been a "fuel problem" possibly not enough of it.....
The oil company has stopped using that operator as of now.
The oil company has stopped using that operator as of now.
Without speculating on this latest event, I would not be at all surprised if it was fuel. Even the so-called "majors" suffer with a dwindling number of "fuel for all" or even "prior permission" fuel stations. It makes flight planning all the more critical.
And it's not simply a matter of sticking more fuel installations offshore. The oil company has to find space for it, and the oil company personnel have to do the transferring of the transporters from the boat to the platform, and then the fuel from the transporter to the tank. Then there's the prospect of having more helicopter traffic on their deck and its attendant risk. So they are VERY reluctant to let any but their own ships drink from that well.
Every helicopter operator locks their fuel stations, so Air Log can't pump PHI fuel and vice-versa. (Few pilots carry around "universal" fuel keys - bolt cutters.) And there are almost no meters on the pumps, so even if operators shared there's no way of keeping track of gallons pumped except pilot honesty (yeah, right!).
When the smaller operators like Rotorcraft and Tex-Air began getting a foothold in the GOM, I worried about their fuel availability. It's usually not a problem when the weather is nice and the winds are light and the loads are light and everything goes according to plan...but throw even one "slight" change of itinerary (the dreaded, "Hey, let's swing by...") or stronger winds offshore and it can really mess with your mind as you try to figure where you're going to get fuel now.
I've had my share of fuel scares out in the GOM even though my paycheck came from one of the majors. I just cannot imagine the pucker factor of working for RTI or Tex-Air every day. That's the kind of pressure a pilot really doesn't need.
...Finally, no matter what turns out to be the cause of this latest engine failure, WHY DIDN'T HE POP THE FLOATS?! It would really suck to do a nice, pretty auto to the water and then forget to pull the trigger. That would be the "D'OH!" heard 'round the world.
And it's not simply a matter of sticking more fuel installations offshore. The oil company has to find space for it, and the oil company personnel have to do the transferring of the transporters from the boat to the platform, and then the fuel from the transporter to the tank. Then there's the prospect of having more helicopter traffic on their deck and its attendant risk. So they are VERY reluctant to let any but their own ships drink from that well.
Every helicopter operator locks their fuel stations, so Air Log can't pump PHI fuel and vice-versa. (Few pilots carry around "universal" fuel keys - bolt cutters.) And there are almost no meters on the pumps, so even if operators shared there's no way of keeping track of gallons pumped except pilot honesty (yeah, right!).
When the smaller operators like Rotorcraft and Tex-Air began getting a foothold in the GOM, I worried about their fuel availability. It's usually not a problem when the weather is nice and the winds are light and the loads are light and everything goes according to plan...but throw even one "slight" change of itinerary (the dreaded, "Hey, let's swing by...") or stronger winds offshore and it can really mess with your mind as you try to figure where you're going to get fuel now.
I've had my share of fuel scares out in the GOM even though my paycheck came from one of the majors. I just cannot imagine the pucker factor of working for RTI or Tex-Air every day. That's the kind of pressure a pilot really doesn't need.
...Finally, no matter what turns out to be the cause of this latest engine failure, WHY DIDN'T HE POP THE FLOATS?! It would really suck to do a nice, pretty auto to the water and then forget to pull the trigger. That would be the "D'OH!" heard 'round the world.
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First, never go by the FAA preliminary reports for anything. They are embarrassingly inaccurate. I've seen wrong types, wrong everything at one time or another. In the one posted above, I highly doubt that this flight was for pleasure for anyone involved. The NTSB reports, OTOH, are usually trustworthy.
Fuel is always a concern with helicopters, because they just don't have the range of fixed-wing, and the oil company dispatchers/foremen/flunkies all want the absolute maximum payload carried, no matter what, and safety isn't anywhere near the top of the list of their concerns. Thus almost every helicopter flying in the GOM is flying with the minimum required fuel, and sometimes less. The majors have more fuel installations, thus more chances to divert and pick up some more fuel if things go into the dumpster, but the small bottom-feeders can't do that, and their pilots had better plan very carefully. Until the oil company upper management comes down hard and fires a few dispatchers and foremen, this isn't going to change. I won't hold my breath waiting for any change.
Fuel is always a concern with helicopters, because they just don't have the range of fixed-wing, and the oil company dispatchers/foremen/flunkies all want the absolute maximum payload carried, no matter what, and safety isn't anywhere near the top of the list of their concerns. Thus almost every helicopter flying in the GOM is flying with the minimum required fuel, and sometimes less. The majors have more fuel installations, thus more chances to divert and pick up some more fuel if things go into the dumpster, but the small bottom-feeders can't do that, and their pilots had better plan very carefully. Until the oil company upper management comes down hard and fires a few dispatchers and foremen, this isn't going to change. I won't hold my breath waiting for any change.
Hang on 'ere mate....I thought all the oil companies had safety programs...minimum safety standards...the FAA has a hotline for complaints....the helicopter company has safety managers whose sole job is seeing that all the safety rules are complied with....you mean....things are not what they are supposed to be?
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Hmm PPRUNE , popping the floats is great if they work. Just ask my frined S.S., He had a eng failure this year , got real busy, real fast and reach down and pulled the manual and they didnt go. so he didnt have enough time to reach down, arm the elec, and pull the trigger... Lifes a beach, the elec would have worked, but all the arm switch on the panel is different in every a/c , and he was a little overwhelmed....
He did do a great auto, no one hurt, but it sank..... tough luck
He did do a great auto, no one hurt, but it sank..... tough luck
This is not a GOM crash...nor a Jetranger..but the quote about the oil company desire to achieve "zero incidents" is quite amusing when taken in context to the on-going argument about the difference in safety standards between say...the UK, Nigeria, and the GOM....same oil company...but different policies or enforcement of policies.
Missing Chopper in Nigeria Confirmed Crashed in Sea
LAGOS (Reuters) - U.S. energy giant ChevronTexaco confirmed on Tuesday that a helicopter carrying an American and three Nigerians which went missing shortly after takeoff from a Nigerian offshore rig on Monday had crashed.
A statement from ChevronTexaco said one body had already been recovered near the crash site in the Gulf of Guinea and search and rescue operations were still underway.
A U.S. embassy official said the recovered body was not that of the American pilot.
"The incident underscores why all of us in the oil industry, both producers and service companies, must continue to work together to strive for zero incident in our operations," ChevronTexaco director Jay Pryor said in the statement.
The cause of the crash was still unknown, company officials said.
The American was a pilot working for Pan African Airlines, a subsidiary of U.S.-based Air Logistics, which also owns the aircraft. The three Nigerians were comprised of the co-pilot and two employees of Houston-based drilling contractor Transocean Inc, company officials said.
The drilling rig, owned by Sedco Energy, was working in ChevronTexaco's deepwater oil concession called OPL 249, about 150 km (90 miles) offshore, under contract to Transocean Inc., officials said.
ChevronTexaco is Nigeria's third largest oil producing company, with about 450,000 barrels per day (bpd) output.
The company has shut down 140,000 bpd due to continued insecurity in Nigeria's swampy delta region, where wells were vandalized during ethnic violence last year.
Missing Chopper in Nigeria Confirmed Crashed in Sea
LAGOS (Reuters) - U.S. energy giant ChevronTexaco confirmed on Tuesday that a helicopter carrying an American and three Nigerians which went missing shortly after takeoff from a Nigerian offshore rig on Monday had crashed.
A statement from ChevronTexaco said one body had already been recovered near the crash site in the Gulf of Guinea and search and rescue operations were still underway.
A U.S. embassy official said the recovered body was not that of the American pilot.
"The incident underscores why all of us in the oil industry, both producers and service companies, must continue to work together to strive for zero incident in our operations," ChevronTexaco director Jay Pryor said in the statement.
The cause of the crash was still unknown, company officials said.
The American was a pilot working for Pan African Airlines, a subsidiary of U.S.-based Air Logistics, which also owns the aircraft. The three Nigerians were comprised of the co-pilot and two employees of Houston-based drilling contractor Transocean Inc, company officials said.
The drilling rig, owned by Sedco Energy, was working in ChevronTexaco's deepwater oil concession called OPL 249, about 150 km (90 miles) offshore, under contract to Transocean Inc., officials said.
ChevronTexaco is Nigeria's third largest oil producing company, with about 450,000 barrels per day (bpd) output.
The company has shut down 140,000 bpd due to continued insecurity in Nigeria's swampy delta region, where wells were vandalized during ethnic violence last year.
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SASless, we both know how things work. The safety managers sit in their ivory towers and send policy down, and the people out on the platforms, who perceive that their jobs depend on cutting costs at all costs, ignore the policy. Some of the stupidest things anyone has ever tried to get me to do were suggested by employees of a major oil company which boasts about its safety program, and imposes all kinds of things on its contractors. That company's safety program is mostly eyewash, but that will never be admitted. How it's planned in the ivory tower and how it's actually done in the field are very different. Same thing with the company I work for. The safety managers never go out to the bases, they stay at home and think of things that will help them keep their jobs by making it look like they're doing something. I've never met a safety manager who was worth a bucket of warm spit.
Gome ol' buddy....don't sugar coat it...just tell us what you really think!
I have to agree...having flown on the North Sea and then later on the Alaska Cook Inlet operation for a large, now thought to be up for sell helicopter operator, safety standards really were quite different.
The horror stories I hear...and the flying techniques some of the guys from the GOM have shown me as being "normal" fare there...convince me of the need for serious oversight by some organization that can improve safety for the crews and passengers there.
I have to agree...having flown on the North Sea and then later on the Alaska Cook Inlet operation for a large, now thought to be up for sell helicopter operator, safety standards really were quite different.
The horror stories I hear...and the flying techniques some of the guys from the GOM have shown me as being "normal" fare there...convince me of the need for serious oversight by some organization that can improve safety for the crews and passengers there.