Helicopter raises village anger
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It seems as though Vfrpilotpb hit the nail on the head and some of us may have been a little too quick to assume this helicopter owner's neighbours were being unreasonable.
I've now heard from two separate sources that he positioned his hangar on the part of his land furthest away from his own house and close to his neighbour's house - blocking his neighbours' view and keeping his own unobstructed.
When advised that this was inconsiderate and likely to cause problems, he took the view that it was his own land and he could do what he wanted regardless of what they thought.
I'm told his response was similar when advised to stop doing engine runs at night.
If it's true, he appears to have brought the trouble upon himself.
I'm told his helicopter has been u/s for some months - no doubt to the relief of his neighbours.
I've now heard from two separate sources that he positioned his hangar on the part of his land furthest away from his own house and close to his neighbour's house - blocking his neighbours' view and keeping his own unobstructed.
When advised that this was inconsiderate and likely to cause problems, he took the view that it was his own land and he could do what he wanted regardless of what they thought.
I'm told his response was similar when advised to stop doing engine runs at night.
If it's true, he appears to have brought the trouble upon himself.
I'm told his helicopter has been u/s for some months - no doubt to the relief of his neighbours.
Maybe Flying Lawyer can advise us the of the difference between being inconsiderate and being in violation of laws pertaining to blocking the view of a neighbor. If you own the property and are not violating any law, ordinance, covenant, or other building code restriction....who is to say where you put your hangar on your own property.
The guy might be a pushy, obnoxious, inconsiderate newly rich young man....but if he is within the law....he is within the law. As to the a Mad Dog done in black being sinsister....having a "jet engine" and all that....well bless me! Old maids that peer through kitchen curtains worry me a bit too.
How does one fill a valley with "black smoke" from a Mad Dog?
Engine runs at night....is there an "anti-noise" ordinance that pertains....if he is not in violation of that....again....he is not in violation of the law. Certainly in violation of a commonsense rule.
From the sounds of the arguments....the guy is rich beyond his intelligence. I would think I would move the chopper to an airfield and find some of that peace and tranquility he seems to be destroying.
But that being said....I can understand the guy resisting if he is in fact not in violation of the law. People do look for ways to deprive others of their freedom these days.
You reckon if he had done a house warming affair....and given all takers a helicopter ride that might have prevented some of this....start off by trying to be a "good neighbor".
The guy might be a pushy, obnoxious, inconsiderate newly rich young man....but if he is within the law....he is within the law. As to the a Mad Dog done in black being sinsister....having a "jet engine" and all that....well bless me! Old maids that peer through kitchen curtains worry me a bit too.
How does one fill a valley with "black smoke" from a Mad Dog?
Engine runs at night....is there an "anti-noise" ordinance that pertains....if he is not in violation of that....again....he is not in violation of the law. Certainly in violation of a commonsense rule.
From the sounds of the arguments....the guy is rich beyond his intelligence. I would think I would move the chopper to an airfield and find some of that peace and tranquility he seems to be destroying.
But that being said....I can understand the guy resisting if he is in fact not in violation of the law. People do look for ways to deprive others of their freedom these days.
You reckon if he had done a house warming affair....and given all takers a helicopter ride that might have prevented some of this....start off by trying to be a "good neighbor".
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SASLess
You suggest a very important thing. Before claiming that law regulates every thing (works also both ways), one might first be considerate with neighbours.
Law should come in if only if some of them are really unreasonable.
Counting on a lot of sympathy when being confrontational on this one looks like real poor judgement and imho bad for the trade...
Before I flew myself there was a guy (that I know well) that used to hover over my pool, which I really did not like..... I try not to forget that.
delta3
You suggest a very important thing. Before claiming that law regulates every thing (works also both ways), one might first be considerate with neighbours.
Law should come in if only if some of them are really unreasonable.
Counting on a lot of sympathy when being confrontational on this one looks like real poor judgement and imho bad for the trade...
Before I flew myself there was a guy (that I know well) that used to hover over my pool, which I really did not like..... I try not to forget that.
delta3
Having taught Mr Griffin to fly his machine a few observatios for you.
1. He is not a bad bloke and not unreasonable, but knows what he wants and doed not suffer fools gladly.
2. His hangar was out of view of his and neighbours house until neighbours cut 4 ft off their hedge. Mr G has even sunk the hangar down a bit, although I think this is to get round the law.
3. I spent a day with him last week, looking at, minimising noise, steep approaches and the best way of getting in to his site to cause the least disturbance. Before you ask - away from his house.
4. He shot himself in the foot by using Castle Air boys, they knew little about a 500 and they could only " fix it " after hours and at the weekend. I would not like a 500 starting up 50m from my house 10 to 15 times on a weekend. Very few have a problem with 1 or 2 flights a day.
5. The next door neighbours have already an order served on them in relation to taking photos and videos - apparantly.
6. If Shaun had taken a different tack there would have been less of a problem.
7. A lesson for us all - one has to work with ones neighbours, after all we have to live with them !
1. He is not a bad bloke and not unreasonable, but knows what he wants and doed not suffer fools gladly.
2. His hangar was out of view of his and neighbours house until neighbours cut 4 ft off their hedge. Mr G has even sunk the hangar down a bit, although I think this is to get round the law.
3. I spent a day with him last week, looking at, minimising noise, steep approaches and the best way of getting in to his site to cause the least disturbance. Before you ask - away from his house.
4. He shot himself in the foot by using Castle Air boys, they knew little about a 500 and they could only " fix it " after hours and at the weekend. I would not like a 500 starting up 50m from my house 10 to 15 times on a weekend. Very few have a problem with 1 or 2 flights a day.
5. The next door neighbours have already an order served on them in relation to taking photos and videos - apparantly.
6. If Shaun had taken a different tack there would have been less of a problem.
7. A lesson for us all - one has to work with ones neighbours, after all we have to live with them !
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Hughes500
Since you're familiar with the location, can you tell us:
Is it true "he positioned his hangar furthest away from his own house and close to his neighbour's house."?
Is it true he put it where "blocked his neighbours' view and kept the view from his own house unobstructed."?
Is it true "When advised that this was inconsiderate and likely to cause problems, he took the view that it was his own land and he could do what he wanted regardless of what they thought."?
BTW, you say he's "not a bad bloke and not unreasonable, but knows what he wants and does not suffer fools gladly."
The MD of the company he sold (quoted in an earlier post) put it in a different way, saying 'He's a hard-nosed businessman who won't let anything get in the way of what he wants to do.'
Some people might think Mr Griffin sounds like the sort of person who's not unreasonable as long as he gets his own way, and that his definition of a fool is anyone who dares to try to stop him.
Heliport
Since you're familiar with the location, can you tell us:
Is it true "he positioned his hangar furthest away from his own house and close to his neighbour's house."?
Is it true he put it where "blocked his neighbours' view and kept the view from his own house unobstructed."?
Is it true "When advised that this was inconsiderate and likely to cause problems, he took the view that it was his own land and he could do what he wanted regardless of what they thought."?
BTW, you say he's "not a bad bloke and not unreasonable, but knows what he wants and does not suffer fools gladly."
The MD of the company he sold (quoted in an earlier post) put it in a different way, saying 'He's a hard-nosed businessman who won't let anything get in the way of what he wants to do.'
Some people might think Mr Griffin sounds like the sort of person who's not unreasonable as long as he gets his own way, and that his definition of a fool is anyone who dares to try to stop him.
Heliport
Gatvol
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Would do my heart good to see some rich guy, take his property in the English Countryside, level all the buildings and make a huge underground complex. Buy a bell 212 with the noisiest rotor system, paint it black and have all his black uniformed security patrolling the perimeter fence. Do only late night or early morning take off and departures from the elevated platform that comes out of the underground complex. Any vehicles that arrive or depart must come in a convoy minimum of three and be also totally black.
This having everything titled under some mysterious corporation registered in the Cayman Islands.
Maybe this would keep the towns buzzing. Where is Robert Ludlum when you really need him....
This having everything titled under some mysterious corporation registered in the Cayman Islands.
Maybe this would keep the towns buzzing. Where is Robert Ludlum when you really need him....
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SASless
You don't need me to advise you on the difference between being inconsiderate and being in violation of laws.
All I meant was that operating from private helipads in the UK is difficult enough as it is, and the position of responsible pilots isn't helped by publicity about helicopter owners who behave inconsiderately - regardless of whether or not they are within the law.
I'm not usually sympathetic to people who object to helicopters, but there are times when they have a point. If someone chooses to put his hangar beside his neighbour's house instead of his own, and blocks his neighbour's view rather than his own, I don't blame them for trying to stop him. They may not succeed, but at least they would have tried their best.
In my experience, it's usually better to get the neighbours on side rather than antagonise them. It doesn't always work, but it's always worth trying.
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Hughes500
I'd advise you to be extremely cautious in your dealings with Mr Griffin.
After falling out with his first instructor, he made numerous allegations against him to the CAA. One of those led to the CAA prosecuting the instructor for minor 'paperwork' offences (ANO Article 115) which had no flight safety implications whatsoever.
Why the CAA prosecuted such trivia is beyond my understanding, but I've long since given up trying to comprehend the CAA's prosecution policy and just work with it - or around it!
Fortunately, the court accepted the FI had made an honest mistake, agreed the offences were trivial, and gave the instructor a Conditional Discharge. (He could have been fined.)
I'm told by a lawyer present in court that Mr Shaun 'not a bad bloke' Griffin not only went to court and watched the instructor being prosecuted, but started shouting out from the public gallery during the defence mitigation and had to be warned he'd be removed if he didn't keep quiet.
I wasn't there, but my source is 100% reliable. I'd planned to represent the Instructor myself - free of charge because he's a good man and because I thought the prosecution was outrageous. I couldn't get there because the case I've been prosecuting for the past couple of months and which I expected to finish last week didn't finish until yesterday.
In stark contrast to the ridiculous prosecution of the instructor, that case wasn't trivial. Link
Tudor Owen
You don't need me to advise you on the difference between being inconsiderate and being in violation of laws.
All I meant was that operating from private helipads in the UK is difficult enough as it is, and the position of responsible pilots isn't helped by publicity about helicopter owners who behave inconsiderately - regardless of whether or not they are within the law.
I'm not usually sympathetic to people who object to helicopters, but there are times when they have a point. If someone chooses to put his hangar beside his neighbour's house instead of his own, and blocks his neighbour's view rather than his own, I don't blame them for trying to stop him. They may not succeed, but at least they would have tried their best.
In my experience, it's usually better to get the neighbours on side rather than antagonise them. It doesn't always work, but it's always worth trying.
______________________________
Hughes500
I'd advise you to be extremely cautious in your dealings with Mr Griffin.
After falling out with his first instructor, he made numerous allegations against him to the CAA. One of those led to the CAA prosecuting the instructor for minor 'paperwork' offences (ANO Article 115) which had no flight safety implications whatsoever.
Why the CAA prosecuted such trivia is beyond my understanding, but I've long since given up trying to comprehend the CAA's prosecution policy and just work with it - or around it!
Fortunately, the court accepted the FI had made an honest mistake, agreed the offences were trivial, and gave the instructor a Conditional Discharge. (He could have been fined.)
I'm told by a lawyer present in court that Mr Shaun 'not a bad bloke' Griffin not only went to court and watched the instructor being prosecuted, but started shouting out from the public gallery during the defence mitigation and had to be warned he'd be removed if he didn't keep quiet.
I wasn't there, but my source is 100% reliable. I'd planned to represent the Instructor myself - free of charge because he's a good man and because I thought the prosecution was outrageous. I couldn't get there because the case I've been prosecuting for the past couple of months and which I expected to finish last week didn't finish until yesterday.
In stark contrast to the ridiculous prosecution of the instructor, that case wasn't trivial. Link
Tudor Owen
5. The next door neighbours have already an order served on them in relation to taking photos and videos - apparantly
In my experience, it\'s usually better to get the neighbours on side rather than antagonise them.
Of course, the odd joy flights for neighbours don\'t go astray. They all love to see their properties from the air.
I also discussed it with my shire councillor. He said the council didn\'t give a fig about it.
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What a complete fool this guy is. Contrary to 'getting what he wants', idiots like this don't. Instead, they live life looking over their shoulder at neighbours who despise them and they spoil relationships with the locals for their wife and kids.
It's plainly lack of intelligence.
You want to start flying a helo from your property? Think, plot and PLAN it.
I've moved house twice in recent years and had to do just that.
So, to help anyone else tempted to follow Mr Griffin's approach and make things more difficult for the rest of us, here's the idiot's guide.
ONE: Move in first. Keep the machine away. Get known first as someone to be liked.
When you move into a community everyone gets a one line label that neighbours use initially when talking of you to someone else. Make sure yours is 'nice guy, runs a xxx company' or similar. DO'NT let it be 'He's got a helicopter'.
TWO: When you first move your machine in, fly a LITTLE. Avoid any pattern of the same time or day a week. A month or two will do.
THREE: Take as many different approach and departure routes as you can and NEVER directly overfly anyone's house.
FOUR: Take the elders of the village flying. In my case and at the last village, taking one wonderful 80 year old lady (who had never flown in anything, ever), had everyone out in their gardens and right down the village street waving. Bet Mr Griffin would kill for that PR.
FIVE: Offer some use of your machine for free. For example, farmers like to see their fields, neighbours like to see their houses and everyone would like a free photo of their house. This last one happened to me last month and wasn't my idea. I was approached about flying a local amateur photographer, prints available to everyone in the village, donations to the village hall. EVERYONE's happy.
FIVE: Communicate your PASSION for flying and dispel the image that it's an executive toy.
SIX: For heaven's sake BE MODEST.
I don't plot this cynically. People are basically good and if they have fears about noisy machines they don't understand, it's your responsibility to reassure them. You get out of your relationships with neighbours precisely what you put in.
I resent the damage that the Griffin's of this world do to the reputation of helicopters, but in my experience, guys like him won't be flying in ten years time. They'll either have killed themselves with a similarly poor attitude to the discipline of flying, or have moved on to fast bikes or boats. Yes I'm generalising and no I've never met Mr Griffin, but his actions speak very loud. Aviation can do without him.
It's plainly lack of intelligence.
You want to start flying a helo from your property? Think, plot and PLAN it.
I've moved house twice in recent years and had to do just that.
So, to help anyone else tempted to follow Mr Griffin's approach and make things more difficult for the rest of us, here's the idiot's guide.
ONE: Move in first. Keep the machine away. Get known first as someone to be liked.
When you move into a community everyone gets a one line label that neighbours use initially when talking of you to someone else. Make sure yours is 'nice guy, runs a xxx company' or similar. DO'NT let it be 'He's got a helicopter'.
TWO: When you first move your machine in, fly a LITTLE. Avoid any pattern of the same time or day a week. A month or two will do.
THREE: Take as many different approach and departure routes as you can and NEVER directly overfly anyone's house.
FOUR: Take the elders of the village flying. In my case and at the last village, taking one wonderful 80 year old lady (who had never flown in anything, ever), had everyone out in their gardens and right down the village street waving. Bet Mr Griffin would kill for that PR.
FIVE: Offer some use of your machine for free. For example, farmers like to see their fields, neighbours like to see their houses and everyone would like a free photo of their house. This last one happened to me last month and wasn't my idea. I was approached about flying a local amateur photographer, prints available to everyone in the village, donations to the village hall. EVERYONE's happy.
FIVE: Communicate your PASSION for flying and dispel the image that it's an executive toy.
SIX: For heaven's sake BE MODEST.
I don't plot this cynically. People are basically good and if they have fears about noisy machines they don't understand, it's your responsibility to reassure them. You get out of your relationships with neighbours precisely what you put in.
I resent the damage that the Griffin's of this world do to the reputation of helicopters, but in my experience, guys like him won't be flying in ten years time. They'll either have killed themselves with a similarly poor attitude to the discipline of flying, or have moved on to fast bikes or boats. Yes I'm generalising and no I've never met Mr Griffin, but his actions speak very loud. Aviation can do without him.
Heliport
Shaun Griffins land is reverse L shaped, ie Look down the garden, garden L goes down and to the right, looking down the terraced slope ( 3 x 5 ft high terraces) the hangar is situated on the right arm of reverse L. Therefore hangar does not obscure his view. The hangar is situated on the lower terrace making it some 10 to 12 ft below the level of the house. To be fair the hangar is in the best place for all as it is situated behind a hedge. The neighbours cut down 4 ft of the hedge making the hangar more visible ?
If I was putting up a hangar that is where I would put it ! Not out of badness but out of practicality.
Where he has gone wrong is in not consulting his neighbours and starting machine up - late afternoons and weekends doing track and balance. This would upset a jet head let alone a normal neighbour.
I can't see him using the machine a great deal, probably no more than 2 to 3 times a week on average.
Tudor thank you for your advice as always, I will speak as I find ( I am not defending any of his actions). I have found him to be courteous, well mannered, always on time, helpful and very willing to learn and has always paid his bills on time.
Having witnessed him speaking to a deputation of villagers he was all of the above. Perhaps what he has lacked is a bit of sensitivity in his actions
I will willingly answer more questions.
Shaun Griffins land is reverse L shaped, ie Look down the garden, garden L goes down and to the right, looking down the terraced slope ( 3 x 5 ft high terraces) the hangar is situated on the right arm of reverse L. Therefore hangar does not obscure his view. The hangar is situated on the lower terrace making it some 10 to 12 ft below the level of the house. To be fair the hangar is in the best place for all as it is situated behind a hedge. The neighbours cut down 4 ft of the hedge making the hangar more visible ?
If I was putting up a hangar that is where I would put it ! Not out of badness but out of practicality.
Where he has gone wrong is in not consulting his neighbours and starting machine up - late afternoons and weekends doing track and balance. This would upset a jet head let alone a normal neighbour.
I can't see him using the machine a great deal, probably no more than 2 to 3 times a week on average.
Tudor thank you for your advice as always, I will speak as I find ( I am not defending any of his actions). I have found him to be courteous, well mannered, always on time, helpful and very willing to learn and has always paid his bills on time.
Having witnessed him speaking to a deputation of villagers he was all of the above. Perhaps what he has lacked is a bit of sensitivity in his actions
I will willingly answer more questions.
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Thanks for the reply.
I realise you're in a difficult position as he's a customer, but going by the care you've taken not to antagonise your own neighbours (separate thread) I can't help wonder if you'd really put your hangar/helicopter right next to your neighbours' house, separated only by a hedge, even if it was the best place from your own point of view.
Heliport
I realise you're in a difficult position as he's a customer, but going by the care you've taken not to antagonise your own neighbours (separate thread) I can't help wonder if you'd really put your hangar/helicopter right next to your neighbours' house, separated only by a hedge, even if it was the best place from your own point of view.
Heliport
Heliport...
The real question is really...would you base your personal helicopter on your own property knowing it might cause a problem with your neighbors. It isn't a question of law, rights, or privilege....simply a matter of logic as I see it.
He owns the property, there is no law to prevent him from doing what he did, and from the description of the property....he chose the best place possible on his premises.
What we have here is an implementation problem.
If he had been more sensitive to the downside of his decision, and had done a good PR effort, all this might have been averted.
The real question is really...would you base your personal helicopter on your own property knowing it might cause a problem with your neighbors. It isn't a question of law, rights, or privilege....simply a matter of logic as I see it.
He owns the property, there is no law to prevent him from doing what he did, and from the description of the property....he chose the best place possible on his premises.
What we have here is an implementation problem.
If he had been more sensitive to the downside of his decision, and had done a good PR effort, all this might have been averted.
Guys
My persoal feelings on this are : always go carefully, in my situation I have my Parish Council all the landowners around and 99% of the village behind me. This has only come about by being a good and considerate neighbour. Most of all do not kick the arse out of it, no one likes having the perverbial taken and try and keep everyone or more realistic the majority on side. It is surprising what local support can do v officaldom.
Everyone have a happy xmas and a safe flying 2005
My persoal feelings on this are : always go carefully, in my situation I have my Parish Council all the landowners around and 99% of the village behind me. This has only come about by being a good and considerate neighbour. Most of all do not kick the arse out of it, no one likes having the perverbial taken and try and keep everyone or more realistic the majority on side. It is surprising what local support can do v officaldom.
Everyone have a happy xmas and a safe flying 2005
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Their was quite a big thread on this guy about the late spring last year (2004), seems to be riding roughshod over the locals, and has upset his neighbours from day one!
Not really good if you want to fly your machine from home.
Vfr
Not really good if you want to fly your machine from home.
Vfr
Shaun Griffin is in no different a position to lots of other owners. Where he has gone wrong was to try and fix the many problems with the machine at weekends / evening times.
Generally he uses the machine on average 3 times a week. Hardly that offensive, the rest of the village does not complain if a chainsaw goes all day.
If Shaun was using the machine everyday and doing numerous take offs and landings then I could see the point.
The best answer to anyone else is to get the locals on side, I did in a recent battle with my local authority, I ended up with The Parish Council voting 6 to 0 in favour with more than 40 letters of support. However I emposed the following restrictions 100 days use, 8am to 8pm, The local authority was happy with this.
Everyone out there please be mindful of your neigbours, be in their position, they will eventually determine whether you get planning permission or hassle ! Take heed from Mr Griffin - he went wrong by doing balance runs / fcu scheduling on Sunday and evenings agianst my advice.
Most of us would not like a H500 to be running up and down on a Sunday afternoon !
Generally he uses the machine on average 3 times a week. Hardly that offensive, the rest of the village does not complain if a chainsaw goes all day.
If Shaun was using the machine everyday and doing numerous take offs and landings then I could see the point.
The best answer to anyone else is to get the locals on side, I did in a recent battle with my local authority, I ended up with The Parish Council voting 6 to 0 in favour with more than 40 letters of support. However I emposed the following restrictions 100 days use, 8am to 8pm, The local authority was happy with this.
Everyone out there please be mindful of your neigbours, be in their position, they will eventually determine whether you get planning permission or hassle ! Take heed from Mr Griffin - he went wrong by doing balance runs / fcu scheduling on Sunday and evenings agianst my advice.
Most of us would not like a H500 to be running up and down on a Sunday afternoon !
h-r
Another neighbour, Mark Gibbons, said: "The aviation exhaust makes the whole village stink like Heathrow airport, which is the last thing you want when you are sitting out in your garden on Sunday afternoon."
I prefer JETA1 to pig $hit any day of the week.
I prefer JETA1 to pig $hit any day of the week.