Who's At Fault
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Who's At Fault
A friend of mine was parked on the fuel pumps at his local airfield in his R22 when a gazelle flew behind him. There was quite a strong wind (20k) and he was down wind of the gazelle with his rotor's / engine stopped.
The downwash of the gazelle made the R22's blade slap down into the tail boom and cause a dent which is just within the manufacturer's limits.
The Gazelle pilot says he's not at fault because he was far enough away from the aircraft and landed on the "H" next to the R22 as instructed by ATC.
I know my thoughts maybe the Flying Lawyer could put us straight.
The downwash of the gazelle made the R22's blade slap down into the tail boom and cause a dent which is just within the manufacturer's limits.
The Gazelle pilot says he's not at fault because he was far enough away from the aircraft and landed on the "H" next to the R22 as instructed by ATC.
I know my thoughts maybe the Flying Lawyer could put us straight.
I'll get me coat......
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In my humble opinion the Gazelle pilot is at fault as he is the pilot in command and as such is ultimately responsible for his downwash and the effect it may have on objects on the ground.
Then again I'm no lawyer!
Hollywood
Then again I'm no lawyer!
Hollywood
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
IMHO,
Plainly the Gazelle pilot was not "far enough away", whatever the circumstances may be.
The Gaz pilot must have realised he was upwind and in a 20 kt wind should have routed accordingly. A little thing called airmanship I believe.
Just because ATC gave clearance doesn't make Gaz guy right.
At the risk of sounding flippant, if ATC cleared him to the 'H' and there wasn't enough room, would he carry on until the inevitable happened and still claimed he was in the right?
I don't think so!
SS.
Plainly the Gazelle pilot was not "far enough away", whatever the circumstances may be.
The Gaz pilot must have realised he was upwind and in a 20 kt wind should have routed accordingly. A little thing called airmanship I believe.
Just because ATC gave clearance doesn't make Gaz guy right.
At the risk of sounding flippant, if ATC cleared him to the 'H' and there wasn't enough room, would he carry on until the inevitable happened and still claimed he was in the right?
I don't think so!
SS.
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I don't disagree with the general principle in the opinions above.
Just a couple of questions -
(1) I'm not familiar with R22 procedures, but ..... Wouldn't it have been good practice to have the rotor brake engaged if the wind was 20 kts?
Assume for the purpose of the next question that the R22 pilot was sitting in his helicopter at the time. (It's a small world.
)
(2) "There was quite a strong wind (20k) and he was down wind of the gazelle."
Knowing that he was downwind of a helicopter approaching to land on the next spot in a relatively strong wind, can the R22 pilot be blamed at all, if only to some extent, for not ensuring his rotor wouldn't be blown when the downwash arrived?
ie It should have been obvious to both pilots what was going to happen.
Any thoughts?
Just a couple of questions -
(1) I'm not familiar with R22 procedures, but ..... Wouldn't it have been good practice to have the rotor brake engaged if the wind was 20 kts?
Assume for the purpose of the next question that the R22 pilot was sitting in his helicopter at the time. (It's a small world.
)(2) "There was quite a strong wind (20k) and he was down wind of the gazelle."
Knowing that he was downwind of a helicopter approaching to land on the next spot in a relatively strong wind, can the R22 pilot be blamed at all, if only to some extent, for not ensuring his rotor wouldn't be blown when the downwash arrived?
ie It should have been obvious to both pilots what was going to happen.
Any thoughts?
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It's a good idea to offset the blade a bit when shut down in the R22 (I learned that parking next to a 206 in a tight spot for a few years), nevertheless we all know that we're responsible for our own rotorwash, period.
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rotorcaptain
Everyone agrees we're responsible for our own rotorwash, but it might not be as simple as 'period'.
I don't know about England but I believe most states here have what's called contributory negligence. If a court here decided the R22 pilot was say 15% to blame for the damage for not securing his blades when the other helicopter was landing upwind in a strong wind (basic airmanship) then the compensation he'd get for the damage would be reduced by 15%.
Everyone agrees we're responsible for our own rotorwash, but it might not be as simple as 'period'.
I don't know about England but I believe most states here have what's called contributory negligence. If a court here decided the R22 pilot was say 15% to blame for the damage for not securing his blades when the other helicopter was landing upwind in a strong wind (basic airmanship) then the compensation he'd get for the damage would be reduced by 15%.
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I did my initial training and indeed many hours on the R22, my Lady instructer always told me to ensure parked blades were left at 1.00clock /7.00 oclock , and only 6.oo oclock 12.00 oclock if you were tieing down, and if very windy parked and tieed down at 9.00 oclock 3.00 oclock
Peter R-B
Peter R-B
In Australia the law states that the pilot must not operate a helicopter so close as to cause a hazard, including its downwash.
The law also states that no ATC clearance or instruction absolves the pilot from complying with the laws.
If the guy is filling up happy as Larry and his bird is then damaged by another bloke blowing him around, it seems obvious to me who's fault it is! No Gazelle = no damage eh?
The Gazelle pilot could have requested an alternative helipad/landing site, albeit temporarily? Either way, maybe he needs to expand his situational awareness/common sense in my opinion.
The law also states that no ATC clearance or instruction absolves the pilot from complying with the laws.
If the guy is filling up happy as Larry and his bird is then damaged by another bloke blowing him around, it seems obvious to me who's fault it is! No Gazelle = no damage eh?
The Gazelle pilot could have requested an alternative helipad/landing site, albeit temporarily? Either way, maybe he needs to expand his situational awareness/common sense in my opinion.
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As the Robbo was parked in a strong wind situation at a fuel pump, why didn't he tie the blades down? Even if he was only going to be 20 mins or whatever, good airmanship with a teetering head would suggest tying down was required. Having said that the Gazelle pilot should have noticed that and landed further away. I'm sure FL would have a field day apportioning blame.
Over here some years ago, a 206L landed on a pontoon designed to take two 206s with the first one having it's blades tied. The 206L pilot saw the blades were fore and aft and duly landed. The blades weren't tied, turned, intermeshed and the 206L transmission entered the cabin and killed a passenger. The 206 pilot, who was in the crew room, was duly charged with manslaughter and spent well over a year before the case was reduced.
So tie your blades down if you are going walkabout!!
Over here some years ago, a 206L landed on a pontoon designed to take two 206s with the first one having it's blades tied. The 206L pilot saw the blades were fore and aft and duly landed. The blades weren't tied, turned, intermeshed and the 206L transmission entered the cabin and killed a passenger. The 206 pilot, who was in the crew room, was duly charged with manslaughter and spent well over a year before the case was reduced.
So tie your blades down if you are going walkabout!!
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The way I heard the story was the pilot was sitting in the R22 waiting to start while the Gazelle was being marshalled to the adjacent spot.
I don't think anyone would argue the Gazelle pilot wasn't responsible for his own downwash whatever the marshaller instructed. I haven't got an R22 rating but, if you're sitting in an R22 with a teetering head, downwind of another helicopter about to put down in a strong wind, could it be argued the pilot was partly to blame for not getting out and preventing the rear blade from impacting the tailboom since the blades weren't tied down?
I'm not an R22 pilot, but isn't it fairly basic airmanship?
I don't think anyone would argue the Gazelle pilot wasn't responsible for his own downwash whatever the marshaller instructed. I haven't got an R22 rating but, if you're sitting in an R22 with a teetering head, downwind of another helicopter about to put down in a strong wind, could it be argued the pilot was partly to blame for not getting out and preventing the rear blade from impacting the tailboom since the blades weren't tied down?
I'm not an R22 pilot, but isn't it fairly basic airmanship?
Slight amendment to Nigel's post: the helicopter on the deck was a 222, with the tail boom over the water: unable to be tied down. The pilot's defence (it didn't get to court, although he was initially charged and spent $A40k+ on legals) was that the Flight Manual prohibits leaving the rotor brake on, after shut down. I don't know the FM, but assume he was/is correct.
The 206L pilot was reported to have seen the 222's blades, yet continued his approach with subsequent fatality (passenger's video showed all
). 206L pilot became CP, 222 pilot sitting having a cup of coffee 50 yards away was charged by Queensland Police. Go figure 
Back to the Gazelle/R22: from the Antipodes, who was most at fault? Gaz pilot should have known better? R22 driver should have grabbed the tip of the nearest blade and held it secure when the obvious was about to happen? R22 driver should have tied the blade down? Gaz pilot should have gone to another spot?
All of the above
The 206L pilot was reported to have seen the 222's blades, yet continued his approach with subsequent fatality (passenger's video showed all
). 206L pilot became CP, 222 pilot sitting having a cup of coffee 50 yards away was charged by Queensland Police. Go figure Back to the Gazelle/R22: from the Antipodes, who was most at fault? Gaz pilot should have known better? R22 driver should have grabbed the tip of the nearest blade and held it secure when the obvious was about to happen? R22 driver should have tied the blade down? Gaz pilot should have gone to another spot?
All of the above
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In the states, the AIM clearly says that the pilot is responsible for his actions as he is the one with the most knowledge of the effects of his downwash. It is up to the pilot to know if the operation is going to possibly damage another aircraft and ask for an ammended clearance if so.
If the R22 pilot had no knowledge of the other helicopter coming in until he was buckled in, how could have he been negliable?
If the R22 pilot had no knowledge of the other helicopter coming in until he was buckled in, how could have he been negliable?
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Just to clear up a couple of queries.
Heliport your very well imformed, do you reside in the small hut just behind the fuel pumps?
The R22 pilot was sat in the helicopter waiting to start, with his headsets on talking on the radio, i don't think he would of heard the gazelle or seen it as it arrived from behind the r22, especially as the rotor noise was being hurtled down wind by the strong wind
You normally don't have your blades tied when your just about to start, but even if they were it would not of made the slightest bit of different. Blade ties on the 22 only stop them from flapping up, they are still free to flap down.
Currawong
As for proving if the dent was there before the aircraft is less than a week old with only 15 hours datcom
I think the Flying Lawyer won't be commenting on this as i believe he's been contacted by the gazelle driver.
I don't think even with the expert knowledge of the Flying Lawyer he will be able to talk himself out of this one
Interesting replies i will certainally be leaving a little more room next time i approach anything
Heliport your very well imformed, do you reside in the small hut just behind the fuel pumps?
The R22 pilot was sat in the helicopter waiting to start, with his headsets on talking on the radio, i don't think he would of heard the gazelle or seen it as it arrived from behind the r22, especially as the rotor noise was being hurtled down wind by the strong wind
You normally don't have your blades tied when your just about to start, but even if they were it would not of made the slightest bit of different. Blade ties on the 22 only stop them from flapping up, they are still free to flap down.
Currawong
As for proving if the dent was there before the aircraft is less than a week old with only 15 hours datcom
I think the Flying Lawyer won't be commenting on this as i believe he's been contacted by the gazelle driver.
I don't think even with the expert knowledge of the Flying Lawyer he will be able to talk himself out of this one
Interesting replies i will certainally be leaving a little more room next time i approach anything
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You've worked out where I live. 
I'll have to move now, and I liked it there.
It's a small industry. Not much happens that doesn't get about within a few hours.
Charlie
Flying Lawyer also flies Jetrangers and fixed-wings.
I don't think people who find themselves in a spot of bother contact FL because of any particular type he flies.
Difficult to see how anyone could do much to help the Gaz driver in this instance though.
I'll have to move now, and I liked it there.
It's a small industry. Not much happens that doesn't get about within a few hours.
Charlie
Flying Lawyer also flies Jetrangers and fixed-wings.
I don't think people who find themselves in a spot of bother contact FL because of any particular type he flies.
Difficult to see how anyone could do much to help the Gaz driver in this instance though.
Cyclicflare - you can hear the whine of a Gazelle fenestron from miles away through double glazing but I don't think hearing him would have helped him assess the proximity of the Gazelle.
If the robbo pilot has his back to the Gaz and is in the cockpit with headphones on and awaiting start clearance I don't think he can be considered negligent or culpable in any way, shape or form.
The gazelle pilot has a clear view of the area, presumably knows he is down wind and that his rotor wash is ahead of him and still comes in close enough to bother the R22 - that is poor airmanship however you dress it up.
If the robbo pilot has his back to the Gaz and is in the cockpit with headphones on and awaiting start clearance I don't think he can be considered negligent or culpable in any way, shape or form.
The gazelle pilot has a clear view of the area, presumably knows he is down wind and that his rotor wash is ahead of him and still comes in close enough to bother the R22 - that is poor airmanship however you dress it up.
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Firstly, regarding tieing the blades down, I have rented may R22s from different operators and have never foound any of them equipped with blade tie downs.
Strange how training is different - I was always taught to leave the blades at 12 o'clock - 6 o'clock but I do see the sense in making it 7 o'clock - 1 o'clock instead.
Many years ago I was taxying a C172 plank past a parked Trislander when the Trislander pilot decided to do a power check as I passed behind him. I was blown over sideways, shock loading the prop and damaging the wing.. It became an argument between insurers, and in the end they decided I was to blame for being there despite the fact that ATC had told me to taxy behind him.
Strange how training is different - I was always taught to leave the blades at 12 o'clock - 6 o'clock but I do see the sense in making it 7 o'clock - 1 o'clock instead.
Many years ago I was taxying a C172 plank past a parked Trislander when the Trislander pilot decided to do a power check as I passed behind him. I was blown over sideways, shock loading the prop and damaging the wing.. It became an argument between insurers, and in the end they decided I was to blame for being there despite the fact that ATC had told me to taxy behind him.
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Heliport
It is a small industry, but not that small.
I still think you live in that small hut behind the pumps or maybe your the re fueler.
Are you 4ft 3" tall about 96 years of age and fought in WW1
It is a small industry, but not that small.
I still think you live in that small hut behind the pumps or maybe your the re fueler.
Are you 4ft 3" tall about 96 years of age and fought in WW1