Who's At Fault
Joined: Apr 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 10,959
Likes: 1,814
From: EGDC
One of the great functions of this forum is that people can learn from others mistakes but unless we identify that a mistake has been made then how can another learn from it?
If the experienced among us do not say something or someone is wrong and just shrug our shoulders and mutter 'c'est la vie', then how will those not fortunate enough to have several thousand hours/many years of experience learn not to do the same things.
I would hope, at the very least, that this thread has made everyone aware of what damage their downwash can do and that they are resposible for that damage, whether they meant to do it or not.
If the experienced among us do not say something or someone is wrong and just shrug our shoulders and mutter 'c'est la vie', then how will those not fortunate enough to have several thousand hours/many years of experience learn not to do the same things.
I would hope, at the very least, that this thread has made everyone aware of what damage their downwash can do and that they are resposible for that damage, whether they meant to do it or not.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
Didn't this thread start by asking, "Who's at fault?" Yea, but by the Grace of God... how true. Nevertheless, having read and reviewed this forum, it will give me pause when I find myself in a similar situation. For the poor saps actually living this situation, someone has to pay the bill.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
From: London
I don't have the experience to comment on who may be at fault.
I would like to say that this thread has proved invaluable to me.
I have been taught that whilst carry out my check A on an R22 to visually inspect the tail boom. What for, I never really new until now. If I had seen a dent in the body work I probably would have thought it was superficial and nothing to worry about. I now know better.
Thank you all for that valuable piece of knowledge.
H.
I would like to say that this thread has proved invaluable to me.
I have been taught that whilst carry out my check A on an R22 to visually inspect the tail boom. What for, I never really new until now. If I had seen a dent in the body work I probably would have thought it was superficial and nothing to worry about. I now know better.
Thank you all for that valuable piece of knowledge.
H.
Joined: May 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 18,633
Likes: 1,072
From: Downeast
In another recent thread here I advocated in two bladed helicopters the blades be either tied down or at 3-9 o'clock position with the tiedown safely stowed and some took exception to that self imposed rule.
Application of that simple rule would have prevented this occurrence. Anyone that leaves an untied blade of any kind directly over the tail boom is asking for trouble.
That being said....the other aircraft is not relieved from the responsiblity of watching out for his rotor wash effects.
Being a former Chinook pilot....I do get a certain perverse satisfaction out of hearing about a Gazelle and a Robbie having rotor wash problems.
Application of that simple rule would have prevented this occurrence. Anyone that leaves an untied blade of any kind directly over the tail boom is asking for trouble.
That being said....the other aircraft is not relieved from the responsiblity of watching out for his rotor wash effects.
Being a former Chinook pilot....I do get a certain perverse satisfaction out of hearing about a Gazelle and a Robbie having rotor wash problems.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
From: Over here
As for the R22 pilot, leaving the blades at 12/6 is simply stupid, especially if he's about to start up. If you're shut down in 20 kt winds, you really need to think about where the blades are and what might happen in case of a gust, whether natural or from another helicopter.
As for the Gazelle pilot, if you can see that another ship is shut down and the blades are untied, you need to use more care than usual. That's pretty easy to see if the blades are perpendicular to the fuselage, but can be difficult if they're exactly parallel. I've done a number of approaches to offshore platforms where a 206 was shut down, and the blades appeared to be tied, but on low approach turned out not to be, necessitating a go-around at the last second, something I don't appreciate all that much. If you're flying a helicopter with a teetering rotor system, tie the damn thing down when you shut down, or else you will inevitably have some damage sometime.
As for the Gazelle pilot, if you can see that another ship is shut down and the blades are untied, you need to use more care than usual. That's pretty easy to see if the blades are perpendicular to the fuselage, but can be difficult if they're exactly parallel. I've done a number of approaches to offshore platforms where a 206 was shut down, and the blades appeared to be tied, but on low approach turned out not to be, necessitating a go-around at the last second, something I don't appreciate all that much. If you're flying a helicopter with a teetering rotor system, tie the damn thing down when you shut down, or else you will inevitably have some damage sometime.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 36
Likes: 1
From: W Mids
More unsolicited downwash
While at Wellesbourne yesterday, I witnessed an extraordinary episode of what appeared to be scant regard for the effects of downwash.
A Lynx flew slowly over a huge apron at approx 25/30 ft agl behind, but up wind of 3 parked fixed wing (Bulldog & 2 Rallye I think).
The first aircraft had its tail flapped back and forth wildly before finally being blown through a ground loop. Fortunately it did not collide with the aircraft beside it. The second aircraft bobbed up and down with the downwash acting upon its tail and started to move forward. It may have been at this point that the pilot noticed or was advised of what was happening because the Lynx seemed to move more rapidly away and take its downwash with it.
However the Lynx now moved round in front of the crowd at a small Classic Vehicle Event and while landing (still upwind of the crowd) managed to lift the dust and grit and procede to pebbledash the crowd and possibly the classic vehicles behind them.
None of us are immune to the momentary loss of concentration and fore-thought, but the 2 man crew of the Lynx both appeared to be having a very protracted 'blonde moment'.
A Lynx flew slowly over a huge apron at approx 25/30 ft agl behind, but up wind of 3 parked fixed wing (Bulldog & 2 Rallye I think).
The first aircraft had its tail flapped back and forth wildly before finally being blown through a ground loop. Fortunately it did not collide with the aircraft beside it. The second aircraft bobbed up and down with the downwash acting upon its tail and started to move forward. It may have been at this point that the pilot noticed or was advised of what was happening because the Lynx seemed to move more rapidly away and take its downwash with it.
However the Lynx now moved round in front of the crowd at a small Classic Vehicle Event and while landing (still upwind of the crowd) managed to lift the dust and grit and procede to pebbledash the crowd and possibly the classic vehicles behind them.
None of us are immune to the momentary loss of concentration and fore-thought, but the 2 man crew of the Lynx both appeared to be having a very protracted 'blonde moment'.
Joined: Sep 2004
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 2,378
Likes: 881
From: Canada
Perhaps instead of who is at fault we can ask " how do we prevent this from happening again."
A) If you park on a helipad you have to expect other helicopters to arrive so secure your a/c. If the door is not in your hand it should be closed and latched. If not starting the tiedown should be on.
B) If taxing near other a/c get as low and I mean low ( 6 inch hover ) as possible as far away as practicable, then taxi in. This reduces downwash a great deal.
C) If at a refueling point don't refuel and beetle off for lunch blocking access to the pumps. Move the aircraft.
D) Look around.
E) monitor TWR or other local freqs to get a picture of incoming traffic - perhaps delaying or accelerating your start a few minutes will avoid a problem.
F) Remember airmanship is not the boat you arrived on.
Perhaps a large sign with the statement - " Unforcast Winds of up to 100 Miles a Hour from any direction can be Expected in this area!" should be posted?
I once had the great joy of landing near a parked 206 on a small pad with 10 other helicopters coming and going.
A fellow had removed the tail rotor drive shaft cover layed it on the ground and then gone into the hangar to get some tools.
Needless to say the drive shaft cover ended up around the skid gear of the 206.
Was it my fault ? - Well, I did not spot the cover on the ground but would you leave a cowling on the round in a place where there is a helicopter landing or departing every 10 minutes and expect not to have it damaged?
A) If you park on a helipad you have to expect other helicopters to arrive so secure your a/c. If the door is not in your hand it should be closed and latched. If not starting the tiedown should be on.
B) If taxing near other a/c get as low and I mean low ( 6 inch hover ) as possible as far away as practicable, then taxi in. This reduces downwash a great deal.
C) If at a refueling point don't refuel and beetle off for lunch blocking access to the pumps. Move the aircraft.
D) Look around.
E) monitor TWR or other local freqs to get a picture of incoming traffic - perhaps delaying or accelerating your start a few minutes will avoid a problem.
F) Remember airmanship is not the boat you arrived on.
Perhaps a large sign with the statement - " Unforcast Winds of up to 100 Miles a Hour from any direction can be Expected in this area!" should be posted?
I once had the great joy of landing near a parked 206 on a small pad with 10 other helicopters coming and going.
A fellow had removed the tail rotor drive shaft cover layed it on the ground and then gone into the hangar to get some tools.
Needless to say the drive shaft cover ended up around the skid gear of the 206.
Was it my fault ? - Well, I did not spot the cover on the ground but would you leave a cowling on the round in a place where there is a helicopter landing or departing every 10 minutes and expect not to have it damaged?
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 440
Likes: 0
From: Port Townsend,WA. USA
The R22 has droop stops, so the blade should not strike the boom unless subjected to a strong downdraft. The blade could be tied and it would still strike through blade bending. (because ropes dont work in compression)
The blade has a warning placard "do not pull down" (I think). Sounds like this blade was overstressed as well.
A tie strut that holds in compression would help I think.
The blade has a warning placard "do not pull down" (I think). Sounds like this blade was overstressed as well.
A tie strut that holds in compression would help I think.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 741
Likes: 0
From: UK
It's all FRANK's fault !
..... ( Surprisingly ? ) no-one has blamed Frank ( yet ) for designing a machine where such an event is possible !
You just wouldn't get this problem with any other type now would you ? ( Jensen Button wouldn't agree
)
Surprised no-one else has picked up on this :
hemac ... what's the point of inspecting the tail boom then ?
Just curious : Is there anything else that you ( or anyone else ) carries out on the Check A that you don't understand ?
You just wouldn't get this problem with any other type now would you ? ( Jensen Button wouldn't agree
)Surprised no-one else has picked up on this :
I have been taught that whilst carry out my check A on an R22 to visually inspect the tail boom. What for, I never really new until now.
Just curious : Is there anything else that you ( or anyone else ) carries out on the Check A that you don't understand ?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Joined: Nov 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 4,753
Likes: 66
From: Alles über die platz
If it wasn't for the 'Top Fuel Pro Drag Racing' at Long Marston yesterday, I would have been at Wellsbourne to see the Vulcan runs and been able to have witnessed this 'Lynx effect!'
Thankfully I wasn't, otherwise I might upset a few people here by saying that I am very surprised that a high profile, 'in the public eye' professional crew would allow themselves to be so open to critisism in being accused of total disregard for the consequences of their downwash on other aircraft, vehicles, persons and structures.
I wonder who the defenders of the Gazelle pilot from earlier in the thread will point the finger at in this incident.
In reference to albatross' post, I would suggest point D would have been in order on this one!
SS
Thankfully I wasn't, otherwise I might upset a few people here by saying that I am very surprised that a high profile, 'in the public eye' professional crew would allow themselves to be so open to critisism in being accused of total disregard for the consequences of their downwash on other aircraft, vehicles, persons and structures.
I wonder who the defenders of the Gazelle pilot from earlier in the thread will point the finger at in this incident.
In reference to albatross' post, I would suggest point D would have been in order on this one!
SS
