Stump the chump
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Stump the chump
Alright, Im hopin this might be a new long thread where you can post stupid questions. Albeit thats kinda what this forum is for but heres in an example.
In the US...read FAA regs,
If you are on a composite flight plan with the IFR leg first and you are coming upon your clearence limit and are still in IFR and try and get an extended clearance but your radio has failed...What do you do? You reach a clearence limit with no EFC and maybe the airport you were going to did not have a instrument approach. So you are at a clearence limit with no EFC time, no assigned route, no EFC route, and no filed route.
?
In the US...read FAA regs,
If you are on a composite flight plan with the IFR leg first and you are coming upon your clearence limit and are still in IFR and try and get an extended clearance but your radio has failed...What do you do? You reach a clearence limit with no EFC and maybe the airport you were going to did not have a instrument approach. So you are at a clearence limit with no EFC time, no assigned route, no EFC route, and no filed route.
?
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Well, if you let yourself get into this situation, you are a chump, but the only thing to do now is get down. Find the nearest airport with an ILS and fly it to a landing. ATC can see you on radar, and will clear the airspace for you. Until you cancel IFR, you are on an IFR flight plan.
I'm assuming that when you said "still in IFR" you meant "still in IMC", since IFR refers to rules, not to meteorological conditions. You can be IFR in VMC and VFR in IMC.
I'm assuming that when you said "still in IFR" you meant "still in IMC", since IFR refers to rules, not to meteorological conditions. You can be IFR in VMC and VFR in IMC.
I can understand the IFR in VMC, but I think IMC is by definition weather conditions that preclude flight under VFR, so I can't see how one can be "VFR in IMC". Or does that make me a chump ?
Hovering AND talking
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One can easily be VFR in IMC - and bl**dy dodgy it is too!! If you have no instrument rating and fly into cloud, you can't be IFR 'cos you can't do it! Although you can't see where you're going, it is still Visual Flight Rules.
Cheers
Whirlygig
Cheers
Whirlygig
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Golllly Gomer
I have scratched the old noggin here, but for the life of me can't fathom out how you can be VFR in IMC.
How about putting my few remaining brain cells to ease, and give us a real big hint??
How about putting my few remaining brain cells to ease, and give us a real big hint??
Gatvol
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Remember the only stupid question is the one you didnt ask before you did your flight planning.
Anyway "So you are at a clearence limit with no EFC time, no assigned route, no EFC route, and no filed route." Im sure some will be into the books on this one and probably you will see a number of sharp folks who wont agree with each other.
Again it falls back to your flight planning for next time, put some more thought into it.
As to this situation and it was me in the clouds. First thing your going to have to do with no radio is let someone know. Squawk appropriate codes to Alert ATC. Then find the nearest Airport that maybe VFR or the nearest IFR where you can do an approach. No easy answer. Once you get on the ground, be prepared for the Gubbament guys to be on you like stink on Poo-poo for inadequate flight planning.
Anyway "So you are at a clearence limit with no EFC time, no assigned route, no EFC route, and no filed route." Im sure some will be into the books on this one and probably you will see a number of sharp folks who wont agree with each other.
Again it falls back to your flight planning for next time, put some more thought into it.
As to this situation and it was me in the clouds. First thing your going to have to do with no radio is let someone know. Squawk appropriate codes to Alert ATC. Then find the nearest Airport that maybe VFR or the nearest IFR where you can do an approach. No easy answer. Once you get on the ground, be prepared for the Gubbament guys to be on you like stink on Poo-poo for inadequate flight planning.
Whirlygig,
I'm not entirely sure what it is, but it most assuredly ain't VFR. It can't be, because you're in IMC. You may be a VFR-only pilot in a VFR-only machine, but the second you fly into cloud or lose sight of the surface, you are no longer flying VFR.
I'm not entirely sure what it is, but it most assuredly ain't VFR. It can't be, because you're in IMC. You may be a VFR-only pilot in a VFR-only machine, but the second you fly into cloud or lose sight of the surface, you are no longer flying VFR.
I think what is meant here by VFR in IMC is actually flying in IMC without instrument clearance.
Cause you can´t really fly in accordance with VFR rules when you entered IMC. But I see the dilemma! You´re not really flying i.a. with IFR rules either if in controlled airspace and not on clearance.
In my country you can legally fly in IMC without clearance from ATC if you stay in uncontrolled airspace (Class G) provided you and the aircraft are IFR certified and you adhere to IFR obstacle requirements.
"Bad weather approach in Greenland. Pic taken from B222."
Cause you can´t really fly in accordance with VFR rules when you entered IMC. But I see the dilemma! You´re not really flying i.a. with IFR rules either if in controlled airspace and not on clearance.
In my country you can legally fly in IMC without clearance from ATC if you stay in uncontrolled airspace (Class G) provided you and the aircraft are IFR certified and you adhere to IFR obstacle requirements.
"Bad weather approach in Greenland. Pic taken from B222."
Last edited by Aesir; 9th Apr 2004 at 09:15.
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confusion in terms VFR VMC etc
VFR in IMC? VMC in IFR? What you need is a truth table: the rules you're obeying (or violating, viz VFR in IMC), the conditions you're flying in (VMC vs IMC), and maybe the aircraft and pilot qualifications.
We tend to use VFR to loosely mean we're flying visually (looking out the big window to stay level). Used loosely that way, we can be flying 'VFR' trying to see something out the window, it's surely a visual effort. BUT it's not VFR-as-in-regulatory compliance.
So you've got .4 mile visibility and 300' between layers. You may be visual (for the rest of your short life!) but you're not VFR (even outside controlled airspace, separate discussion not addressed here). Thus, absent the VFR minimums, you're in IMC but still visual-not-VFR. Cobble up a rating & proper instruments & a clearance from ATC, and you're NOW IFR.
Got a headache yet? Take two aspirin, come back in the morning with a freshly sharpened razor blade, we'll endeavor to split that hair once again, into 1/4 ths.
Why do we do these things to ourselves?
We tend to use VFR to loosely mean we're flying visually (looking out the big window to stay level). Used loosely that way, we can be flying 'VFR' trying to see something out the window, it's surely a visual effort. BUT it's not VFR-as-in-regulatory compliance.
So you've got .4 mile visibility and 300' between layers. You may be visual (for the rest of your short life!) but you're not VFR (even outside controlled airspace, separate discussion not addressed here). Thus, absent the VFR minimums, you're in IMC but still visual-not-VFR. Cobble up a rating & proper instruments & a clearance from ATC, and you're NOW IFR.
Got a headache yet? Take two aspirin, come back in the morning with a freshly sharpened razor blade, we'll endeavor to split that hair once again, into 1/4 ths.
Why do we do these things to ourselves?
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Jcooper:
I don't know all the FAA rules but; I thought a filed alternate was required when on an IFR flight plan in the US.
In Canada what you would do is : go to your clearance limit and at the clearance limit conduct an approach at the EFC if given , or Expected approach time if given, or upon reaching the clearance limit, then if you don't get in[ land] continue to your alternate at which point ATC will protect the airspace for 30 minutes which will coincide with the helicopter running out of fuel.
You can file IFR in Canada with out an alternate but the destination weather has to be better than 3 miles > 1000 feet ect.
You can also file to a VFR destination but the wx has to be above the minimum altitude that would allow you to get visual at the mea of your route.
In any case common sense should prevail in the flight planning stage and have your options figured out in advance.
I don't know all the FAA rules but; I thought a filed alternate was required when on an IFR flight plan in the US.
In Canada what you would do is : go to your clearance limit and at the clearance limit conduct an approach at the EFC if given , or Expected approach time if given, or upon reaching the clearance limit, then if you don't get in[ land] continue to your alternate at which point ATC will protect the airspace for 30 minutes which will coincide with the helicopter running out of fuel.
You can file IFR in Canada with out an alternate but the destination weather has to be better than 3 miles > 1000 feet ect.
You can also file to a VFR destination but the wx has to be above the minimum altitude that would allow you to get visual at the mea of your route.
In any case common sense should prevail in the flight planning stage and have your options figured out in advance.
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In the US, where the OP wants to assume all this is occurring, VFR and IFR refer to rules and clearances, and have nothing to do, necessarily, with VMC and IMC, which refer only to weather conditions. Any weather conditions below 1000' and 3 miles is technically IMC, but you can legally fly under VFR in much worse weather; in the US, all that is required under Part 91 in a helicopter is clear of clouds, assuming Class G airspace. Thus you can be flying along at 300' with 1 mile visibility, VFR, legally, but in IMC. And in Class G airspace, you can be VFR, with no IFR clearance, in clouds. Not smart, but legal. Then there is the Special VFR clearance, which lets you fly visually in IMC in controlled airspace, with no instrument rating required.
OTOH, you can be on an IFR clearance in totally clear conditions. You still have to follow all the IFR rules and clearances until you cancel IFR. In the US, IFR/VFR and IMC/VMC are different things. I can't comment on how it works in the rest of the world.
IHL, in the US you are not required to file an alternate if the weather is forecast to be 2000'/3 or better for fixed-wing, or 1000'/2 for helicopters.
OTOH, you can be on an IFR clearance in totally clear conditions. You still have to follow all the IFR rules and clearances until you cancel IFR. In the US, IFR/VFR and IMC/VMC are different things. I can't comment on how it works in the rest of the world.
IHL, in the US you are not required to file an alternate if the weather is forecast to be 2000'/3 or better for fixed-wing, or 1000'/2 for helicopters.
Last edited by Gomer Pylot; 9th Apr 2004 at 04:49.
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Wow this exploded. It was just meant as a fun question for S and G's. So if you want to get semantic about you are on a composite flight plan for IFR and VFR for the second half (I use this term losely as it may not be halfway between your two points.) Your airport of intended landing does not have a SIAP. As you approach your clearance limit you are still in IMC conditions. Since you are on a victor airway it would be illegal to move beyond your clearence limit since you are still below VFR weather mins. You have no radio contact. Its just kind of humorous that according to the FARs you have a clearence limit with no place to go so you would be SOL except you can obviously deviate from your clearence limit because it is an emergency. Another example is on many approaches a point at which the approach can begin may be a 40,50, or even 90 (the highest ive seen) NM from the airport which means in a few instances in radio failure you would have to hold at that point until ETA and then fly for another 30min-1hr. Meaning that if you are fuel limited, which happens often in helis, you run out of gas half way to the airport.
Obviously proper planning would make a majority of this impossible, and obviously you could just deviate from your clearence. I just meant it for fun. Kinda like, if you have an engine failure as you enter a microburst, would you be able to maintain rotor RPM in a autorotation.
Obviously proper planning would make a majority of this impossible, and obviously you could just deviate from your clearence. I just meant it for fun. Kinda like, if you have an engine failure as you enter a microburst, would you be able to maintain rotor RPM in a autorotation.
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If your clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, and no efc was received leave the limit upon arrival and proceed to a fix that an approach may be attempted from. Then it goes on to say "commence descent and approach as close as possible to ETA as filed (or amended)."
So if this airport is not where you intended to land, I guess there is a problem. Oh well, like ya said man, declare that emergency and get down.
FAR 91.185 par 3(ii).
p.s. the only reason I knew exactly where to look is because I am going for my checkride in a few weeks... FINALLY.
So if this airport is not where you intended to land, I guess there is a problem. Oh well, like ya said man, declare that emergency and get down.
FAR 91.185 par 3(ii).
p.s. the only reason I knew exactly where to look is because I am going for my checkride in a few weeks... FINALLY.
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Ya, thats kind of a serious question...when they say that do they mean start approach as close to ETA as possible or start approach to try and hit the airport as close to the ETA as possible? Cause if its the former then you are screwed...anywho...good luck
Last edited by Jcooper; 9th Apr 2004 at 07:57.
Avoid imitations
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Just read this for the first time and noted the comment about "VFR in IMC".
This is most definitely not possible.
The VFR rules state that you must fly in accordance with the prescribed weather minima, which always include the requirement to remain clear of cloud, whichever way you interpret them.
If you don't have the required in-flight VMC / weather minima, you are in IMC and MUST fly iaw IFR.
So if you don't hold the necessary qualification, if your aircraft is not properly equipped, or you don't comply with the minimum safe separation from the nearest obstacle regulation, you are flying illegally.
On the other hand, you MAY elect to comply with IFR regulations in VMC.
This is most definitely not possible.
The VFR rules state that you must fly in accordance with the prescribed weather minima, which always include the requirement to remain clear of cloud, whichever way you interpret them.
If you don't have the required in-flight VMC / weather minima, you are in IMC and MUST fly iaw IFR.
So if you don't hold the necessary qualification, if your aircraft is not properly equipped, or you don't comply with the minimum safe separation from the nearest obstacle regulation, you are flying illegally.
On the other hand, you MAY elect to comply with IFR regulations in VMC.
JC, as you can see everyone is offering you all sorts of advice, the prime one of course relates to pre-flight planning, and a few "what-ifs" that you should have considered then.The Basic ICAO procedure for loss of comms on an IFR FP requires you to proceed as per your original FP to your destination as filed, unless you become VMC en-route and can complete VMC to destination. Whilst so doing you must continue to transmit blind with your intentions and estimates for arrival at specific aids/fixes etc, squawking 7600/C, . You should plan to arrive at destination and carry out an approach , instrument or visual within 30 mins of your expected/revised ETA. If you are able to divert to a clear a/f, or one with an instrument procedure, do that, transmitting your intentions.
A couple of further points,; checking fuel reserves ; if you have an ELT , USE IT; if you have a mobile, USE IT..
But , of course you thought of all these things before?
A couple of further points,; checking fuel reserves ; if you have an ELT , USE IT; if you have a mobile, USE IT..
But , of course you thought of all these things before?
Part 91 allows you to fly in VFR conditions that do not allow for control of the aircraft by reference to external references...for example...night offshore...no surface lights...overcast sky conditions (...say 10,000 overcast) visibility ten miles...(but no surface lights)...and being "VFR"...not much in the way of instrumentation required.
Before you squawk...that visiblity situation does not constitue a "weather" issue by definition under the FAR's.
Thus are you IFR...IMC...VFR...VMC or a combination?
Before you squawk...that visiblity situation does not constitue a "weather" issue by definition under the FAR's.
Thus are you IFR...IMC...VFR...VMC or a combination?
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My instructor in flight school (Bill Box where are you?) in 1968 set this problem up and asked me. I flopped around thinking all the right legal stuff for about 5 minutes (looked a lot like this thread!) He finally said, "Why not just fly to where you can land, sonny? The hell with rules, you couldn't hit someone else up there if you tried, and they will just have to get out of your way, won't they?"
Good advice then, and now, I think!
Good advice then, and now, I think!
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Just because you've become inadvertent IMC doesn't mean you're flying IFR. You remain VFR (albeit VFR with a problem). As someone said earlier, VFR/IFR refers to the rules, not the meteorological conditions.
