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Becoming a professional pilot, and finding a job

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Old 7th Oct 2002, 16:56
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Question Route to Commercial Heaven!?

Hi All

Im about to give up the hum drum life and follow my dreams of becoming a professional helicopter pilot. Im sponsoring myself through and would like some un-biased advice. With all the information out there it's easy to get confused, would someone please be abel to offer some guidance. Im currently looking at Bristol ground school and the distance learning package, but also at Guildhall on a full time basis, any ideas? What are the pro's and cons'? I have spoken to various people about flight training and they have warded me off doing it in the States, is this the general concensus within the industry?

Im budgeting for about £45,000 is this a realistic amount?

Any advice would be welcome as i really dont want to make a bad decision. Im currently 26 and will finish training early 2004, hopefully, what is the situation regarding employment and what does the industry look like its going to do in the near future.

I have formed my own opinion on most of these issues but would like to hear from experienced pilots who could offer something more than a sales pitch.

Thanks

Rotormad.
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Old 7th Oct 2002, 23:54
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do your training in south africa. training will cost you half of that. maybe even less. and then spend the rest on xtra ratings etc so you make yourself more employable. send me an email if you want more info.
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Old 8th Oct 2002, 00:05
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Do it anywhere but the UK...........and why..??

Save yourself considerable money and get to see the world.......the US, Oz, NZ or SA are all good alternatives.....

If you want to work in the UK after that....just convert........if you have the UK ground subjects then thats a blessing........
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Old 8th Oct 2002, 11:22
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1. Per above flying outside the UK is much cheaper.
2. By the time you've paid for accomodation, car hire and general living expenses abroad the cost difference won't be so great.
3. By the time you've converted to a UK licence the cost difference will have disappeared.
4. GBP 45,000 is a realistic assessment of the overall costs of attainingthe UK CPL (H) done by the modular route.
5. You will be exceedingly lucky to get a job with a 200 hour CPL i.e. after spending £45K.
6. Likelihood is that you will have to build another 100 hrs after the CPL and then do the instructor course in order to build sufficient hours to be considered for a commercial position. That's another GBP 20 - 25K on top of your commercial licence costs.
7. If you can do the whole exercise on a full time basis you will be able to reduce these costs a little.
8. Once you're an instructor the pickings will likely be frugal.
9. Bristol Ground School gets the results and is very popular. If you can do a full time course then that will be easier. If you're good at cramming and exams you can study part time at home, supplement the studies with a crammer, and simultaneously build hours thus speeding things up and reducing overall costs.
10. Make sure you do the flying with a good school. Cheap is not necessarily good.
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Old 8th Oct 2002, 14:42
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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im thinking Tiger Helicopters or Heli Coventry, any thoughts??

Rotormad
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Old 8th Oct 2002, 19:37
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1. 300 hours with GBP 28,000.00. still leaves you with GBP 17,000.00 to convert or do what you like with (that includes your instructors ticket)
2. live comfortable for around GBP 300 per month (rent, food, car included)
3. some of the best schools around with ex-airforce pilots as instructors. (....even if it is cheap)
4. you will be able to do your training full-time.
6. experience flying in africa
5. no... i am not talking out of my a$$.
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Old 9th Oct 2002, 23:51
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Conversions?

Hi all,

About conversions mentioned earlier. I am off to the states to do my instructor ticket on a 47, build some hrs there, with a small interest to come back here to fly. I have been lead to believe If I want to fly here commercially I will have to sit all the 14 exams I believe.
Can any shed any light on this for me.

Darren

Stop the bus and let my brother Jack off
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Old 10th Oct 2002, 11:14
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Rotormad,

I've just been through what you're about about to start so this is the way I did it and the way I'd do it again if I had my time over ...

I was lucky enough to have the 45,000 odd that it costs to the training fulltime and its taken me just over 12 months from 0 to 190 hour JAR CPL(H). Unfortunately I'm now coming to realise that was the easy bit, its the next 500-1000 hours that are going to be the tough part.

When I first started I was advised that if I wanted to work in this country in an offshore and then maybe in a police or EMS role then I should train in this country. (Apparently there is still a stigma attached to overseas training.) It seemed reasonable advice so I began my PPL last August. After I completed that I immediately started on a distance learning course with OAT. I have to say I thought they were excellent, the notes were good and the two week crammer courses before each set of exams were hugely helpful.

By January I'd completed my first set of exams and built about 30 hours pottering around the SE of England. Trouble was I didn't think I was learning anything (apart from which airport cafes served the best coffee) so I decided to take myself off to NZ to do some hour building. Best decision I made in the twelve months of my training. The training I received was fantastic and the location awesome. I did mountain, low level and sling training. In the end I spent three months down there, did around 80 hours and passed my NZ CPL(H). (You only need 150 hours to take the test rather than the 155 you need here to even start the 35 hour course). Cost wise, as someone has already pointed out, it didn't really work out any cheaper but the experience was invaluable.

I arrived back in the UK in April and started studying for the second set of exams. Then once I'd finished those I took the mandatory 35 hour course and sat the flight test to get my JAR CPL(H).

Everyone from other students to instructors to Chief Pilots will have their opinions about your chances of getting a job after you've finished and I'm sure you'll try and tell yourself during the course of your training that you know how tough it'll be. Having spent the last two months pounding the pavement and wearing out my keyboard writing letters though let me assure its next to impossible to secure a job with a CPL and only 200 hours.

Pretty much the only option at that stage is the North Sea and as far as I can make out they aren't recruiting at the moment and aren't likely to be for the foreseeable future. The only other way in is as an instructor but you'll need a further 100 hours and the money to pay for another 30 (I think) hour training course, about another £25,000.

But its not all doom and gloom, unfortunately I've run out of time for the moment but I'll post again this afternoon with the way I would have gone about it if I'd had my time over.
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Old 10th Oct 2002, 15:05
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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overseas training

I did my primary training in NZ about 1/3 cheaper than I could of in the us. I thought I got excellent value and skills.

Plus it is really cheap to live in NZ (spending usd og GBP)women.
I would move there in a heartbeat if I could figure out how to make a living.

Note that training cost in the US are going up. The numbers you see on the web , add 15-20% once they add in everything.

Go to NZ or SA...

if you have any questions email me or names of training schools in NZ.

RB
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Old 10th Oct 2002, 20:18
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Well i must damit to being slightly nervous about spending all this cash and not having a job at the end of it!! However i am determined to succed and like the idea of building hours in NZ, i have a friend in Weillington, any flight schools you could recommend there????

Thanks for the responses, i really appreciate it. Just one more thing, im thinking of doing my distance learning with Bristow, anybody done it with them or have any opinons!!! Would apppreciate it.

Rotormad

Sorry i meant Bristol, ive got bloody off-shore companies on the bloody brain!!!

Cheers

Rotormad
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Old 11th Oct 2002, 08:03
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Thumbs up learning in NZ

i have passed my ppl(h) and am continuing to cpl(h) and ppl(a)( for the instrument rating) with southern wings in invercargill. we have all weather and terrain types. wanaka and queenstown are but two hours away. check out the site www.flightschool.co.nz
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Old 11th Oct 2002, 12:40
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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I'm years out of date about training costs, but a bit suprised to read people saying the US is still so much cheaper. I know fixed-wing hire is much cheaper in the US (unlike the rip-off rates here) but is helicopter flying any cheaper than here?
I looked into renting a 206 for a few hours in California a few months ago and was quoted just over $600 pr hr - not much difference to the UK. And the hoops I'd have had to jump through to self-fly hire made it not worth the hassle. Some places in the US won't even do SFH for turbines at all.
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Old 11th Oct 2002, 19:44
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Rotormad,
1. You are Mad if you don't check out www.heli.com
2. You are Mad if you believe that you have to do your flight training in Britain in order to get a job in Britain.
3. You are Mad if you don't think NOW about how you are going to get your first 1000 hrs,because without these crucial hours you'll get nowhere.
4. You are Mad if you don't do some really thorough research on potential flight schools world wide.
5. You are Mad if you don't look into the visa situations within these countries.

I started flying in the mid 1990's at age 26 in the US. I left the country 2 years later with a CPL(H) and CFI and around 1000 hrs of mainly instructing.Back to the UK to spend a ridiculous amount of money on a minute amount of flying between 5 and 10 hours and a slog through the CAA exams then straight into the North Sea.I stayed there for a few years then got myself a real helicopter flying job ,still in the UK.

Be prepared for dissmissive comments eg. "a US licence isn't worth the paper its written on"

However when I was in the North Sea there were up to 8 pilots that I knew personally from HAI.

Bristows obviously think its cheaper as they transferred their training to HAI.


Some people will tell you that you're Mad to start flying helicopters in the first place.
Some people will tell you to spend your money on a fixed wing licence (they may have a point).

All the best with your choice,its an important one.
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Old 22nd Dec 2002, 22:59
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Talking Helicopter careers

Hi all

I am just finishing off my private license (fixed wing) here in the US. But recently, I have been more and more interested in flying helicopters, for a living...

I am at Embry Riddle in AZ and have thought about starting flying at the local helicopter FBO and still getting my degree through Riddle.

Here's the question:

How do the licenses work, would I do an "add-on" after getting my private license? Is there a "multi-engine" rating for helicopters? I might do the multi engine rating (fixed wing) through riddle as I have already taken the ground school.

Would any of you guys like to try help me out with some of these questions and giving me a little insight into the world of rotary wing aircraft. Maybe even suggestions on how to go about doing the training, in order to minimise the headaches and enjoy the training even more.

Thanks, and sorry if any of these questions seem REALLY dumb.

Cheers

Craig
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Old 23rd Dec 2002, 14:19
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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Good questions !

Sounds like you want an FAA certificate, which is easier than the JAR program.

You have Private FW, you can do an add-on PVT Rotorcraft Helicopter. You do not need another written exam, your FW will cover it. You need to solo, that can take anywhere from 15 – 40 hours depending on your skill, frequency of lessons, motivation, etc. If you train in an R-22 I believe you need a minimum of 20 hours to solo. After you solo you need to do 10 hours of solo which includes 3 hours of solo XC, some additional night dual and prep for the test. Be prepared to hit the books as the examiner will make sure you understand helicopter aerodynamics, like retreating blade stall, dissymmetry of lift, etc.

For a Commercial license you need a total of 150 flight hours, all of your FW counts towards the total, with 50 hours in a helicopter. Be prepared to have more helicopter time, 90 hours total may be a more reasonable total as you need to demonstrate higher standards for the commercial checkride and you need to do confined areas and 180 degree autorotation. You also need to a Commercial Helicopter written exam.

Once you have your commercial license you need to make a decision, either go for your helicopter CFI or instrument rating. If you are at a school (or pick a school) that will take you on as a new CFI then go for the CFI. This will allow you to build hours, and hours is what prospective employers want to see. If the prospects for a CFI position are low and they have an instrument ship then go for the instrument rating. Any prospective corporate, EMS, offshore operation will require an instrument rating. Instrument training is a challenge, it may take 40-60 hours of instruction to get the rating. If you are at a school that has an instrument ship that has low utilization you may want to get the instrument rating done as low utilized equipment gets sold. Helicopter instrument ships are delicate, electrical gyros are expensive, this type of equipment is rarely used for primary training.

There is no multi-engine helicopter license or rating. However, if you did take say an instrument checkride in a multi-engine helicopter you would probably have to demonstrate a simulated single-engine instrument approach. It’s not like FW where your instrument rating is limited to SE or ME aircraft.

You mentioned you might go for a FW multi-engine rating, if you really want to fly helicopters save the funds for RW as this training is expensive.

I like to mention the current bankruptcies of UAL and US Air. If these carries end up being liquidated there will be a huge glut of pilots (perhaps over 12,000) on the market for years to come. I also believe there will be a huge ripple effect on the regional jets as the feed into the major carriers. You might be wise choosing the heli route. Helicopter pilots never made airline salaries but there are some decent salaries out there.
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Old 24th Dec 2002, 09:13
  #236 (permalink)  
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Not admittedly US oriented, but if you go to the Royal Aeronautical Society's website at www.raes.org.uk and then to the careers section, there's a large download of a booklet called "So you want to be a pilot", which you might find useful.

G
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Old 24th Dec 2002, 14:08
  #237 (permalink)  
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Further to ATPMBA's good advice-

If you're considering flying helos professionally (why?), do an airplane instrument course first. By the time you've done that, you'll be in the ball park for comm helo "aeronautical experience", and the airplane time will greatly assist you in the helo instrument (see next paragraph). My experience is that the difference between a helo private pilot and bare minimum commercial level aircraft control touch is about 10 hours of instruction. If your aim is professional, start as one.

Helicopters fly in the same airspace and generally by the same rules as stuck wings-learning IFR in an airplane makes learning to handle a helo ifr easier. I used airplanes as simulators before I took my IFR course [I'm not an airplane pilot]. The helo part was the first and only time I've ever done a course in minimum time... Yes, you can do helo commercial work without an instrument ticket, but there's less opportunity every day. From your point of view, instrument proficiency=life insurance, and lots of us old fart Viet Nam guys don't have that ticket-but we do have tens of thousands of hours-you can't compete with us for those non-ifr slots. Use that to your advantage.

You'll see many schools offering minimum hours for a commercial add-on. Your initial instruction is the basis for all your experience, get the best you can find, which is not necessarily the cheapest.

My limited exeperience is that when it comes to the actual control handling, ab initio and experienced airplane pilots move at the same rate through to approximately private level aircraft control-then the airplane pilots progress much more rapidly-they already understand flight, how to navigate, weather and the airspace system.
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Old 24th Dec 2002, 16:26
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Cool Getting Started

Hello.

I am very interested in doing a PPL (H) and working my way up to an ATPL (H) eventually, they only problem is that I don't know anything about any of the courses and not sure how to find out. Can anyone help? Also how do I find my nearest good school, something else I don't know!

I would be very grateful for any help.. Cheers..
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Old 25th Dec 2002, 15:07
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Thanks for the advice all. I am going to go for an intro flight in an R22 when I get back to university to see if it is for me.

I still enjoy flying fixed wing, but helicopters look very exciting.

The only prob now is that I'll probably have to change my degree because Riddle doesn't offer helo training under my current Aeronautical Science degree. So, I have a lot of pretty big decisions to make. I am so lucky that I am still able to change to my ideals/aspirations.

If helicopters aren't for me, I'll just continue flying the fixed wings ones (planks, I think you guys call them )

Thanks again guys, any other other info, suggestions or ideas would be great.

Cheers

Craig
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Old 25th Dec 2002, 15:50
  #240 (permalink)  
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Capt Spud..I believe we have talked before. Heres my Opinion.
First do you play a Piano??..........
Seriously, GET THAT DEGREE. That should be a priority. Its the main thing you will have to fall back on should flying for a living not really fill your bank account.....
As to the flying part there are many ways to skin a cat. I believe the cheapest is to continue with fixed wing all the way up through Commerical Multi-Engine CFII. You then can find work easily with lower time than if you did it the helicopter way.. Should you then still want to fly helicopters, add-on would be appropriate and by then you would have "total hours" which would help with your Helicopter add-on. You can also find a larger variety of methods to pay fo the helicopter time...
To be at any job in the Helicopter world today, the bottom line is usually 1500 hours turbine with a Commercial Helicopter. Thats going to take time and money. Your fixed wing CFII will keep you exposed to flying and beans on the plate. It will also make it easier for you once you have your Helo add-on to move up to Insturment andATP helo....
Hit the Books, get that Degree.......
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