Becoming a professional pilot, and finding a job
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Why a degree?
A degree that can serve you in aviation and other arenas will provide a safety net. God forbid you have an ailment where you loose your medical or have an eye injury; nevertheless, a more universal degree may provide more alternatives for you if the need should arise. Goes to the "never put all your eggs in one basket" philosophy.
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Shawn,
This is what i was thinking, it would open other doors that may not be available to pilots only but what exactly?. Hence the need to know the final cash at the end of the day, i need to finance it somehow, you know what banks are like, they need guarantees.
Rick/Diethelm/RD
I already have a Masters degree, that was my cop-out because money was scarce and so were the flying jobs at the time..viable alternative though and didn't want to do FW.
I have also investigated the possibility of finding a rich older lady...my degree was seemingly easier! 
Although i have a degree hasn't really done much for me at the moment, i'm unemployed! Bloody aerospace industry - maybe i should heed the advice from RD 'eggs in one basket syndrome' maybe it's time i pursued my snowboard teaching or a sailing job...nah..i like both but who am i kidding!
Perhaps i should have rephrased the question: 'would a CPL(H) in addition to my aero degree benefit me in getting a better, more lucrative Engineering job?' Any comments, thoughts?
This is what i was thinking, it would open other doors that may not be available to pilots only but what exactly?. Hence the need to know the final cash at the end of the day, i need to finance it somehow, you know what banks are like, they need guarantees.
Rick/Diethelm/RD
I already have a Masters degree, that was my cop-out because money was scarce and so were the flying jobs at the time..viable alternative though and didn't want to do FW.
I have also investigated the possibility of finding a rich older lady...my degree was seemingly easier! Although i have a degree hasn't really done much for me at the moment, i'm unemployed! Bloody aerospace industry - maybe i should heed the advice from RD 'eggs in one basket syndrome' maybe it's time i pursued my snowboard teaching or a sailing job...nah..i like both but who am i kidding!Perhaps i should have rephrased the question: 'would a CPL(H) in addition to my aero degree benefit me in getting a better, more lucrative Engineering job?' Any comments, thoughts?
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helislave
can I perhaps give you a slightly more cynical alternative?
I agree with Shawn and Rich and what others have said, education per se is a good thing.
But, I think you have to really look at your own ambitions and motivation.
In your last post you ask us to look at it from a different angle: will a CPL(H) help you get a better engineering job?
It seems to me there is confusion in your own mind about what you really want to do. The bottom line is, if you want to fly helicopters, you've got to get the licences, and start working! In the UK this would mean paying for 300 hundred hours R22 time then working as an instructor. After 1000 hours you'll maybe be eligible for some ad hoc charter work if you get yourself some turbine time.
But you'll have to dedicate yourself full time to being a pilot, not an engineer.
As for working for a manufacturer, well we're mostly into the realms of test flying there, and Shawn and Rich are the guys to ask about that, but you aren't going to walk into that with your Masters and a CPL(H).
I think you need to ask yourself what means the most to you, the academic side of things, or being a pilot. Remember, there just aren't any guarantees, and as a pilot you'll be up against guys who want to do nothing else but fly that helicopter. They are truly dedicated! Are you?
can I perhaps give you a slightly more cynical alternative?
I agree with Shawn and Rich and what others have said, education per se is a good thing.
But, I think you have to really look at your own ambitions and motivation.
In your last post you ask us to look at it from a different angle: will a CPL(H) help you get a better engineering job?
It seems to me there is confusion in your own mind about what you really want to do. The bottom line is, if you want to fly helicopters, you've got to get the licences, and start working! In the UK this would mean paying for 300 hundred hours R22 time then working as an instructor. After 1000 hours you'll maybe be eligible for some ad hoc charter work if you get yourself some turbine time.
But you'll have to dedicate yourself full time to being a pilot, not an engineer.
As for working for a manufacturer, well we're mostly into the realms of test flying there, and Shawn and Rich are the guys to ask about that, but you aren't going to walk into that with your Masters and a CPL(H).
I think you need to ask yourself what means the most to you, the academic side of things, or being a pilot. Remember, there just aren't any guarantees, and as a pilot you'll be up against guys who want to do nothing else but fly that helicopter. They are truly dedicated! Are you?
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Heli Vision i think you are right. I am confused, between a nicely paid fairly secure Engineering job (which i have yet to find. The same goes for engineering in terms of experience as well as flying, it has to be the right kind of experience to get the good jobs) and the risk, insecurity and less well paid but pleasure of a flying position, which i wanted first incidentally.
Just thought i'd ask if the two together would be of any benefit. Perhaps Shawn, Rich you could give me some pointers?
Hard work and putting the effort in i don't have a problem with, it's the lack of cash i have a problem with, which the engineering pays!
And i think secretively (no longer) the flying test job is the one i ultimately want..but you're right it ain't gonna happen with 0 hrs!!
ta very much..i'm glad i came to this forum, it's got me thinking about stuff i would never have before...
Just thought i'd ask if the two together would be of any benefit. Perhaps Shawn, Rich you could give me some pointers?
Hard work and putting the effort in i don't have a problem with, it's the lack of cash i have a problem with, which the engineering pays!
And i think secretively (no longer) the flying test job is the one i ultimately want..but you're right it ain't gonna happen with 0 hrs!!
ta very much..i'm glad i came to this forum, it's got me thinking about stuff i would never have before...
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Helislave,
Many years ago two young Warrant Officers in Vietnam (Rich Lee and Pete Stormer) shared a common dream. Neither of us had money, connections or education. We both became successful test pilots by two entirely different tracks. Pete followed a military path while I followed a civil path. Pete became a respected instructor at the US Navy Test Pilot School. I work for Boeing.
Education? I will tell you that neither of us has ever stopped learning. The pursuit of our dreams involved constant learning. Even today neither of us has arrived, a test pilot never does. I am always in school. Always taking tests.
A Masters in Engineering is an excellent first step. Now it is time to focus on your flying. The beginning in any career is difficult and a beginning in the field of test perhaps even more so. I can tell you that it becomes easier with time and experience.
There are ways. Can you join the military? Have you considered employment with some other government agency? Can you become associated with a school or university? Do you belong to any professional organizations or societies?
Most people focus on why they cannot be successful. I have always figured out how to be successful. If I were a test pilot starting in the US today I would begin with a BA or BS in any science. I would take any job to pay for flying lessons. Once certificated I would virtually live at the airport and take every opportunity (paid or unpaid) to get flight time. I would then enroll in the National Test Pilot School and learn the ropes. Then I would apply for the FAA and let them bankroll the rest of my education while I paid off existing debt. Using my FAA connections I would secure a private sector job (assuming I wasn't getting job satisfaction from the FAA).
There are many other ways of becoming a test pilot. I have one friend who started his own engineering company to become a test pilot. He looked around, found a product that could be improved, secured funding and started making money. He owns his own helicopter, is a test pilot and is wealthy.
Think--I am sure you can envision a path appropriate for you.
Many years ago two young Warrant Officers in Vietnam (Rich Lee and Pete Stormer) shared a common dream. Neither of us had money, connections or education. We both became successful test pilots by two entirely different tracks. Pete followed a military path while I followed a civil path. Pete became a respected instructor at the US Navy Test Pilot School. I work for Boeing.
Education? I will tell you that neither of us has ever stopped learning. The pursuit of our dreams involved constant learning. Even today neither of us has arrived, a test pilot never does. I am always in school. Always taking tests.
A Masters in Engineering is an excellent first step. Now it is time to focus on your flying. The beginning in any career is difficult and a beginning in the field of test perhaps even more so. I can tell you that it becomes easier with time and experience.
There are ways. Can you join the military? Have you considered employment with some other government agency? Can you become associated with a school or university? Do you belong to any professional organizations or societies?
Most people focus on why they cannot be successful. I have always figured out how to be successful. If I were a test pilot starting in the US today I would begin with a BA or BS in any science. I would take any job to pay for flying lessons. Once certificated I would virtually live at the airport and take every opportunity (paid or unpaid) to get flight time. I would then enroll in the National Test Pilot School and learn the ropes. Then I would apply for the FAA and let them bankroll the rest of my education while I paid off existing debt. Using my FAA connections I would secure a private sector job (assuming I wasn't getting job satisfaction from the FAA).
There are many other ways of becoming a test pilot. I have one friend who started his own engineering company to become a test pilot. He looked around, found a product that could be improved, secured funding and started making money. He owns his own helicopter, is a test pilot and is wealthy.
Think--I am sure you can envision a path appropriate for you.
Engineering jobs...
On the subject of degrees and engineering jobs.
As you've probably noticed, Engineering jobs aren't easy to find. If you find one, you'll also discover that they aren't all that well paid, the good news is that they are generally quite secure once you've got one since once you've learned the products and system of a company they will generally work quite hard (short of actually paying more) to keep you.
Both flying and engineering jobs need two things (1) the right qualifications, and (2) the right experience - albeit that the proportions can vary a little.
There is however some good news - if you want to work in aviation, you can to a fair extent read-across the experience between the two (when you've enough of both, you might hit the jackpot and be allowed to do some test flying).
I suspect that like me, you are interested in both the engineering and flying sides - so try and get the minimum qualifications that you need on both sides - a BEng, MEng or MSc in aero-eng, and a CPL(H) being where you're looking. In the meantime, grab all the flying time you can when you can, and engineering experience when you can't (flying experience is always harder to get - there are ways to gain real engineering experience, albeit possibly unpaid, if you search).
Eventually, all going well, you'll hit the jackpot.
G
(and, as Rich says, if you want to be wealthy, quit working for other people and start on your own - working in aviation is fun but you'll not retire a millionaire.)
As you've probably noticed, Engineering jobs aren't easy to find. If you find one, you'll also discover that they aren't all that well paid, the good news is that they are generally quite secure once you've got one since once you've learned the products and system of a company they will generally work quite hard (short of actually paying more) to keep you.
Both flying and engineering jobs need two things (1) the right qualifications, and (2) the right experience - albeit that the proportions can vary a little.
There is however some good news - if you want to work in aviation, you can to a fair extent read-across the experience between the two (when you've enough of both, you might hit the jackpot and be allowed to do some test flying).
I suspect that like me, you are interested in both the engineering and flying sides - so try and get the minimum qualifications that you need on both sides - a BEng, MEng or MSc in aero-eng, and a CPL(H) being where you're looking. In the meantime, grab all the flying time you can when you can, and engineering experience when you can't (flying experience is always harder to get - there are ways to gain real engineering experience, albeit possibly unpaid, if you search).
Eventually, all going well, you'll hit the jackpot.
G
(and, as Rich says, if you want to be wealthy, quit working for other people and start on your own - working in aviation is fun but you'll not retire a millionaire.)
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Thanks to you both for your words of encouragement and wisdom. It is truely inspiring...
Gengis, this is what i am thinking, it is a long term prospect, but hopefully i will hit the jackpot, i have to be better placed with a Masters and a CPL(H) combined.
Rich, as far as the military are concerned, i am well passed that age, as an aside, i applied for flight school for the army, 6 months too old, same for the Navy and the airforce! Government agency, is a possibility i have yet to pursue, university, again well passed that stage. We are talking the UK here, the Alumni network is not so well advanced, and well to be honest the chances of a university havng a flying school are well almost zero.
It is interesting that if you were doing it now you would go for the engineering degree first then the flying job, well that certainly gives me some hope, i have the Masters already!
I hadn't considered looking at enrolling at the test pilot school. But i think you really hit on a point there, 'connections', at the moment i don't have any, i am not known or placed in the industry per se, and that's certainly a place i could start.
The only reservation i have is getting funding, the only way i can do it, is a remortgage, big gamble huh?
Both, thank you so much. Any jobs going? 
One has to ask!
Gengis, this is what i am thinking, it is a long term prospect, but hopefully i will hit the jackpot, i have to be better placed with a Masters and a CPL(H) combined.
Rich, as far as the military are concerned, i am well passed that age, as an aside, i applied for flight school for the army, 6 months too old, same for the Navy and the airforce! Government agency, is a possibility i have yet to pursue, university, again well passed that stage. We are talking the UK here, the Alumni network is not so well advanced, and well to be honest the chances of a university havng a flying school are well almost zero.
It is interesting that if you were doing it now you would go for the engineering degree first then the flying job, well that certainly gives me some hope, i have the Masters already!
I hadn't considered looking at enrolling at the test pilot school. But i think you really hit on a point there, 'connections', at the moment i don't have any, i am not known or placed in the industry per se, and that's certainly a place i could start.
The only reservation i have is getting funding, the only way i can do it, is a remortgage, big gamble huh?
Both, thank you so much. Any jobs going?
One has to ask!
You may be in luck, possible the most highly respected place in the UK to do a Masters in an aeronautical (technical) subject is Cranfield .
They do have a flying school on site...
I believe somebody once told me that the rates are subsidised for current students at the college of Aeronautics although am not sure either how much, or whether they do rotary courses.
G
They do have a flying school on site...
I believe somebody once told me that the rates are subsidised for current students at the college of Aeronautics although am not sure either how much, or whether they do rotary courses.
G
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Starting up ( sorry )
Hi all
I am a new member after some people on another web site recommended this one.
I have done a search and read some old posts about becoming a commercial pilot, and to be honest I am feeling a little disheartened, I am currently thinking of getting a PPL and then a CPL with the then get a job flying rich people about....
I know welcome to the real word, but what are the chances of getting a pilots job in the real word, it is a bleak as I am led to believe ? or is it a case of you will be okay in the end.
It is a lot of money to spend and I don't mind borrowing it if I can pay it back at the end.
Any comments welcome
Malc
I am a new member after some people on another web site recommended this one.
I have done a search and read some old posts about becoming a commercial pilot, and to be honest I am feeling a little disheartened, I am currently thinking of getting a PPL and then a CPL with the then get a job flying rich people about....
I know welcome to the real word, but what are the chances of getting a pilots job in the real word, it is a bleak as I am led to believe ? or is it a case of you will be okay in the end.
It is a lot of money to spend and I don't mind borrowing it if I can pay it back at the end.
Any comments welcome
Malc
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Duck,
There are two kinds of people, those who do what they want, and are happy, and those who get out their calculators and decide what is the rational course.
Do you love flying? Do you want to fly every day? Then become a pro pilot. If being a groundpounder and drilling assholes in hobby horses quite satisfactory for you, then don't.
Real pilots (this forum is full of them) know when they first broke ground, and then smelled a bit of avgas, they were hooked. For them, the real question is "Do you want to fly?" When I was 8, I was hooked, and that was that. How about you?
There are two kinds of people, those who do what they want, and are happy, and those who get out their calculators and decide what is the rational course.
Do you love flying? Do you want to fly every day? Then become a pro pilot. If being a groundpounder and drilling assholes in hobby horses quite satisfactory for you, then don't.
Real pilots (this forum is full of them) know when they first broke ground, and then smelled a bit of avgas, they were hooked. For them, the real question is "Do you want to fly?" When I was 8, I was hooked, and that was that. How about you?
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I know what you mean about wanting to do it, I have lived near an airfield all my life and have always wanted to fly a helicopter, I am getting to a point in my life where I want to do a job I would love, but also I am a realist with family who can afford the wrong option.
Malc
Malc
Cool as a moosp
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Duck/Malc
There are financial risks and requirements on the road to self sufficiency in rotor aviation. Your last included "but also I am a realist with family who can afford the wrong option."
Does that mean that you are seriously financially independent or did you miss off the apostrophe t on the word before afford? It is important.
BTW for others, isn't this forum great? It's like a guy writes he wants to become a software engineer and Bill Gates replies.
There are financial risks and requirements on the road to self sufficiency in rotor aviation. Your last included "but also I am a realist with family who can afford the wrong option."
Does that mean that you are seriously financially independent or did you miss off the apostrophe t on the word before afford? It is important.
BTW for others, isn't this forum great? It's like a guy writes he wants to become a software engineer and Bill Gates replies.
Last edited by moosp; 25th Sep 2003 at 00:36.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Duck,
How old are you, if your past the age of 35yrs then its possibly too late, but if your young, and fit and have good eyesight and have a yearning to get some air under your Arse, and if you have no wife, no mortgage, no HP or in general no earthly tie's ,
THEN MY FRIEND GRAB SOME WITH BOTH HANDS, but dont faffe about do it, you can't play half way.
If you have money your half way there, if not join HM Forces and get into the AAC ( Army Air Corp) they will pay you at the same time as your training,
if Uncle Tone is still the boss you'll probably have to go to some nasty places and some nasty unwashed louts may want to throw lead and iron at you, BUt hey, you'll be flying,
then you'll be able to come this sort of thread and talk in riddles and shortcuts like most other forces bods do, But Hey you'll be a flyer.
How old are you, if your past the age of 35yrs then its possibly too late, but if your young, and fit and have good eyesight and have a yearning to get some air under your Arse, and if you have no wife, no mortgage, no HP or in general no earthly tie's ,
THEN MY FRIEND GRAB SOME WITH BOTH HANDS, but dont faffe about do it, you can't play half way.
If you have money your half way there, if not join HM Forces and get into the AAC ( Army Air Corp) they will pay you at the same time as your training,
if Uncle Tone is still the boss you'll probably have to go to some nasty places and some nasty unwashed louts may want to throw lead and iron at you, BUt hey, you'll be flying,
then you'll be able to come this sort of thread and talk in riddles and shortcuts like most other forces bods do, But Hey you'll be a flyer.
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Duck, if your keen, then go for it mate!
Getting that first job won't be easy, but if your keen and commit yourself then that first all important job WILL happen. It might be later rather then sooner, but if your "in the right place at the right time" it could very well be sooner.
Vfrpilotpb is right though, if you want it, grab it with both hands, and off course don't let go if things get tough.
If you get into it, Good luck with your flying.
Getting that first job won't be easy, but if your keen and commit yourself then that first all important job WILL happen. It might be later rather then sooner, but if your "in the right place at the right time" it could very well be sooner.
Vfrpilotpb is right though, if you want it, grab it with both hands, and off course don't let go if things get tough.
If you get into it, Good luck with your flying.
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Thanks all
Moosp you are correct I forgot the ' .
Just for the record I am 30 and think I am fit etc.
I will have to sit down and have a serious think, it would be a
amazing job if I could get it, but like most people I am cautious of change.
Malc
Moosp you are correct I forgot the ' .
Just for the record I am 30 and think I am fit etc.
I will have to sit down and have a serious think, it would be a
amazing job if I could get it, but like most people I am cautious of change.
Malc
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Hi Count,
just to help you along too, i am sure you have probably scoured this whole site, i certainly did, but have you checked out these following threads,
'Is a degree and advantage',
'Working for nothing',
'CPL training in NZ',
they contain some useful information and advice from those i the know. It certainly helped me.
At least it helps in knowing i am not alone in my pursuit of flight! Although you are a potential competitor for a job. i have the bug too but not the cash, that 45 min trial flight certainly did it for me, but i knew anyway i wanted to fly. No doubt!.
Hey maybe we can start up some organisation somehow to help newbbie pilots get 'off the ground'
oh yeah, 30 ain't too old, i'm approaching 32...s**t i better do something before i reach 35 hey vfr
just to help you along too, i am sure you have probably scoured this whole site, i certainly did, but have you checked out these following threads,
'Is a degree and advantage',
'Working for nothing',
'CPL training in NZ',
they contain some useful information and advice from those i the know. It certainly helped me.
At least it helps in knowing i am not alone in my pursuit of flight! Although you are a potential competitor for a job.
i have the bug too but not the cash, that 45 min trial flight certainly did it for me, but i knew anyway i wanted to fly. No doubt!. Hey maybe we can start up some organisation somehow to help newbbie pilots get 'off the ground'
oh yeah, 30 ain't too old, i'm approaching 32...s**t i better do something before i reach 35 hey vfr
The Original Whirly
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A couple of things come to mind...
Maybe you should at least get a trial lesson. Of course, it may get you hooked, like all of us. But amazing though it may seem, some people don't like flying helicopters. One fixed wing pilot friend of mine tried it and wasn't keen. And I had a very keen sounding student who disappeared after a trial lesson...although of course maybe she didn't like me and went elsewhere.
You talk about "wanting to fly rich people about". Don't we all!!! Which means there aren't enough of those sort of jobs to go round. I think if you did a survey, you'd find most of the people on this forum, and in the helicopter industry generally, were doing far less glamorous (and more dangerous) jobs - instructing, the North Sea oil rigs, the police, etc.
If you love helicopter flying because you love helicopter flying, go for it! If not, there are probably better ways to earn a better living
Maybe you should at least get a trial lesson. Of course, it may get you hooked, like all of us. But amazing though it may seem, some people don't like flying helicopters. One fixed wing pilot friend of mine tried it and wasn't keen. And I had a very keen sounding student who disappeared after a trial lesson...although of course maybe she didn't like me and went elsewhere.
You talk about "wanting to fly rich people about". Don't we all!!! Which means there aren't enough of those sort of jobs to go round. I think if you did a survey, you'd find most of the people on this forum, and in the helicopter industry generally, were doing far less glamorous (and more dangerous) jobs - instructing, the North Sea oil rigs, the police, etc.
If you love helicopter flying because you love helicopter flying, go for it! If not, there are probably better ways to earn a better living
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Thanks for in advice you are correct about the trail flights I have got the info for them already, I think once I start I won't stop, so I want to be sure before I start.
Thanks for the topics helislave I had already seen them but thanks anyway.
Malc
Thanks for the topics helislave I had already seen them but thanks anyway.
Malc
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A good number of the people on this forum were in your shoes at some point in the not too distance past. I was too - I took the leap and it eventually worked out for me.
I took it one step at a time and only worried about getting a job once I actually had the right rating. If I had worried about getting a job when I started my PPL, I would have never made it.
It seems that the employment merry go round is cyclical - feast or famine. When I was doing my instructor's rating, I could have got a job in the North Sea, but I didnt have a CPL. When I got my CPL, there were no NS jobs. A year later and I got a job. It seems we are at the bottom end of the wheel at the moment, but who can say what next year will bring.
In short go for it, spend some time instructing - its a great apprenticeship, but dont get hung up on the job situation just yet. But it is well worth having a plan B - dont give up the day job just yet - you can do all your training part time!
Good Luck and enjoy your flying
COD
I took it one step at a time and only worried about getting a job once I actually had the right rating. If I had worried about getting a job when I started my PPL, I would have never made it.
It seems that the employment merry go round is cyclical - feast or famine. When I was doing my instructor's rating, I could have got a job in the North Sea, but I didnt have a CPL. When I got my CPL, there were no NS jobs. A year later and I got a job. It seems we are at the bottom end of the wheel at the moment, but who can say what next year will bring.
In short go for it, spend some time instructing - its a great apprenticeship, but dont get hung up on the job situation just yet. But it is well worth having a plan B - dont give up the day job just yet - you can do all your training part time!
Good Luck and enjoy your flying
COD