Helicopter crash at Newcastle
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Andy
You said
Assuming that they are landing into wind, and not down wind, a light head wind combined with a quick stop would be the "ideal" situation to get into vortex ring state, wouldn't you agree?
No Sorry I wouldn't But that is beside the point. Previous posters had it listed as possible vrs. And I know that vrs sounds bad and scarey but usually when you are close to the ground and you spear in and spread the skids it's lack of power, or too big of a demand on power too late... not vrs
Maybe my experience is biased because I operate mainly in high temperatures (32-45 C) but I regularly have pucker experiences with not enough power but have never had a problem with vrs.
And I am a long way from a perfect pilot but my second point was that if I was 63 and I had a private licence and I was taking my old mate who is 75 out for a poke around in a 22 one of the things I wouldn't be showing him is a quick stop !!!
You said
Assuming that they are landing into wind, and not down wind, a light head wind combined with a quick stop would be the "ideal" situation to get into vortex ring state, wouldn't you agree?
No Sorry I wouldn't But that is beside the point. Previous posters had it listed as possible vrs. And I know that vrs sounds bad and scarey but usually when you are close to the ground and you spear in and spread the skids it's lack of power, or too big of a demand on power too late... not vrs
Maybe my experience is biased because I operate mainly in high temperatures (32-45 C) but I regularly have pucker experiences with not enough power but have never had a problem with vrs.
And I am a long way from a perfect pilot but my second point was that if I was 63 and I had a private licence and I was taking my old mate who is 75 out for a poke around in a 22 one of the things I wouldn't be showing him is a quick stop !!!
overpitched:
It seems to be the topic of the month on rotorheads that it's not age but experience which counts. Until the AAIB report (or the gent concerned) lets us know how many hours the guy had, and what happened, then perhaps we can test your theory.
But I think it's going a bit far to make assumptions on what happened based on what is posted an anonymous and not guaranteed correct Internet forum.
It seems to be the topic of the month on rotorheads that it's not age but experience which counts. Until the AAIB report (or the gent concerned) lets us know how many hours the guy had, and what happened, then perhaps we can test your theory.
But I think it's going a bit far to make assumptions on what happened based on what is posted an anonymous and not guaranteed correct Internet forum.
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Nr
No doubt your right but what I was suggesting is that people love reaching for vrs as a cause for accidents such as this but from what I can see vrs doesn't seem to be the cause of many accidents at all.
Perhaps it is over emphasised during training or perhaps it is something that we are constantly thinking about and guarding against but at the end of the day I don't think many helos are lost to it.
I was suggesting that if it was a heavy landing following a quick stop then I think it more likely lack of power and rrpm.
And I think we here at rotorheads have a fine tradition of stabbing in the dark
No doubt your right but what I was suggesting is that people love reaching for vrs as a cause for accidents such as this but from what I can see vrs doesn't seem to be the cause of many accidents at all.
Perhaps it is over emphasised during training or perhaps it is something that we are constantly thinking about and guarding against but at the end of the day I don't think many helos are lost to it.
I was suggesting that if it was a heavy landing following a quick stop then I think it more likely lack of power and rrpm.
And I think we here at rotorheads have a fine tradition of stabbing in the dark
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Part 2
Overpitched: Maybe instead of "the ideal situation" i should have put "one of the "ideal" situations".
I would agree with you though that they would have to be flairing fairly enthusiastically to have a vrs problem, but with pratically calm conditions, it's not impossible. Same goes for overpitching though, at this time of the year with coldish temps and the amount of spare power a R22 has for the weight, to overpitch and run out of power you would have to be hauling in a BIG bunch of collective at the end. I don't know anything about their weight (had they just taken off with full fuel, or just coming back with hardly any?)
But, regardless, i was just surprised that these 2 guys were getting called 2 old Farts, and getting slagged of by you when all you had to go on was what you'd read on here. That's what prompted the reply to you.
Cheers
I would agree with you though that they would have to be flairing fairly enthusiastically to have a vrs problem, but with pratically calm conditions, it's not impossible. Same goes for overpitching though, at this time of the year with coldish temps and the amount of spare power a R22 has for the weight, to overpitch and run out of power you would have to be hauling in a BIG bunch of collective at the end. I don't know anything about their weight (had they just taken off with full fuel, or just coming back with hardly any?)
But, regardless, i was just surprised that these 2 guys were getting called 2 old Farts, and getting slagged of by you when all you had to go on was what you'd read on here. That's what prompted the reply to you.
Cheers
Last edited by AndyJB32; 18th Feb 2004 at 17:28.
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overpitched
I don't know anything about the pilot's hours/ experience or what went wrong in this instance, but why shouldn't a 63 year old do a quick stop? Even with his 75 year old chum on board?
It won't affect me for a few years yet, I'm just curious.
If a 63 year old is a "REALLY old fart", I suppose that makes the 75 year old one of the living dead?
BTW, you may be horrified to learn that arguably the finest warbird display pilot, and unarguably the finest Spitfire display pilot, in the world is the same age as the passenger in this incident. NB: I don't mean he 'used to be' the best - I mean he still is the best.
I don't know anything about the pilot's hours/ experience or what went wrong in this instance, but why shouldn't a 63 year old do a quick stop? Even with his 75 year old chum on board?
It won't affect me for a few years yet, I'm just curious.
If a 63 year old is a "REALLY old fart", I suppose that makes the 75 year old one of the living dead?
BTW, you may be horrified to learn that arguably the finest warbird display pilot, and unarguably the finest Spitfire display pilot, in the world is the same age as the passenger in this incident. NB: I don't mean he 'used to be' the best - I mean he still is the best.
The Original Whirly
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overpitched is probably about 17; can never convince these young-uns that your skills don't degrade just because you have another birthday or ten. They'll learn. One thing that's certain is that they'll get older.
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Well actually I'm a bit of an old fart myself. And as I get older I plan to rely more on my experience and less on my reflexes. I figure as I get more experience I wil be more able to avoid getting myself into situations that require lightning fast reflexes.
One of the trade offs for getting old I guess ??
But the question still remains, if it was a quick stop ? why ??
The only quick stop I've ever done was during training. I know it looks flashy but it probably scares the bejesus out of your pax and unless you are turning cattle or it is an emergency I can't really see a need for it.
One of the trade offs for getting old I guess ??
But the question still remains, if it was a quick stop ? why ??
The only quick stop I've ever done was during training. I know it looks flashy but it probably scares the bejesus out of your pax and unless you are turning cattle or it is an emergency I can't really see a need for it.
Last edited by overpitched; 19th Feb 2004 at 04:45.
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This incident has nothing to do with age, it's all to do with the flying of a Robinson R22.
And to stress a point which has been highlighted many times before is;- It's not the number of hours that you have but the quality of those hours. Cruising along aimlessly for an hour will not replace the benefits and increased skill level of one hour on a properly structured training flight with set aims and proficiency standards.
And to stress a point which has been highlighted many times before is;- It's not the number of hours that you have but the quality of those hours. Cruising along aimlessly for an hour will not replace the benefits and increased skill level of one hour on a properly structured training flight with set aims and proficiency standards.
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"Vortex Ring State"
If it was vortex and the pilot reads this forum could you please explain how to get into vortex. nine times out of ten i can't get the damm thing in it. Now give me a 206 and i'll have you in it in a flash or maybe and doing it wrong?
If it was vortex and the pilot reads this forum could you please explain how to get into vortex. nine times out of ten i can't get the damm thing in it. Now give me a 206 and i'll have you in it in a flash or maybe and doing it wrong?
In the old days, we just called it "settling with power" and left it at that. Now, the technoids tell us that it's really "vortex ring state" and suddenly it's a blanket that covers every accident for which we have no other explanation.
We like to break down, dissect and thoroughly analyze every control movement, puff of wind, and pilot thought leading up to every accident. Well guess what - helicopters are tricky. People like to think that they're easy to fly, but the reality is that they're easier to crash! It's deceptively easy for a pilot (especially a low-timer) to let the ship just "get away" from him. Lose your ground cushion when you're already at max power? BANG! Get a little too much of a RoD going near the ground without either sufficient power available or a timely enough application of it? BANG! Terminate a little too fast with a touch of tailwind? BANG! It's just too easy to "fall off the basketball."
I agree with "overpitched" that strict VRS is not the direct cause of the loss of too many airframes. But if a pilot invokes it, who can say or prove otherwise? Take an otherwise-good helicopter and roll it up in a ball? Obviously he/she did something wrong. It's still a pilot-error thing.
However, I disagree with "overpitched" that pilots should not practice quick-stops. And why not? It's not an emergency maneuvre, and I can think of a number of reasons why one might be required at an airport. For example, shooting your approach to one place at the tower's request when your actual parking spot is over there. A short air-taxi ending with a quick-stop might be just the ticket, rather than a long hover-taxi. Quick-stops are good coordination exercises. ...If you do 'em right, of course.
We like to break down, dissect and thoroughly analyze every control movement, puff of wind, and pilot thought leading up to every accident. Well guess what - helicopters are tricky. People like to think that they're easy to fly, but the reality is that they're easier to crash! It's deceptively easy for a pilot (especially a low-timer) to let the ship just "get away" from him. Lose your ground cushion when you're already at max power? BANG! Get a little too much of a RoD going near the ground without either sufficient power available or a timely enough application of it? BANG! Terminate a little too fast with a touch of tailwind? BANG! It's just too easy to "fall off the basketball."
I agree with "overpitched" that strict VRS is not the direct cause of the loss of too many airframes. But if a pilot invokes it, who can say or prove otherwise? Take an otherwise-good helicopter and roll it up in a ball? Obviously he/she did something wrong. It's still a pilot-error thing.
However, I disagree with "overpitched" that pilots should not practice quick-stops. And why not? It's not an emergency maneuvre, and I can think of a number of reasons why one might be required at an airport. For example, shooting your approach to one place at the tower's request when your actual parking spot is over there. A short air-taxi ending with a quick-stop might be just the ticket, rather than a long hover-taxi. Quick-stops are good coordination exercises. ...If you do 'em right, of course.
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Cyclic flare
My original point exactly.
PPF
You're right it's not an emergency procedure, however it is a relatively high speed manouver close to the ground that requires a nice touch and good timing so I think there is a time and a place. And I think if the 2 words before the quick stop are "watch this" it's not the time or the place.
My original point exactly.
PPF
You're right it's not an emergency procedure, however it is a relatively high speed manouver close to the ground that requires a nice touch and good timing so I think there is a time and a place. And I think if the 2 words before the quick stop are "watch this" it's not the time or the place.
Quickstops
Perhaps instead we should call it an emergency stop, to remind ourselves that it does have emergency applications.
I have read countless reports, over the years, where pilots have saved themselves from a full-on wire strike by performing a quickstop in the nick of time. Or avoiding other aircraft at busy, non-tower airfields, or at events such as the Silverstone Grand Prix.
I believe that when manoeuvring low level in any sort of traffic or obstacle environment, a pilot should be "spring-loaded" to perform an emergency stop (aka quickstop).
I'd hate to think that when required to perform a quickstop, that many pilots would make things infinitely worse by overpitching, poor Nr control, VRS, poor attitude/yaw control, etc.
As for the age issue, I don't think I've ever heard a passenger's age criticised before! And as for the pilot being 63. I haven't heard so much arrogant, judgemental, ageist bull$h*t in my life. There are pilots his age flying right now; the North sea being but one example.In more minor professions, such as being a world leader, for example, this age would not be an exclusion.
These guys are not flying supersonic night combat missons behind enemy lines or even landing a 430 on the back of a superyacht. It's just Charters and Caldicot out for a pleasant day, VFR flight!
Those who talk of skills degredation are kidding themselves as to how hard this flying game is from a purely physical point of view (Some, I know, need the ego boost)
Once hovering has been mastered and one has learned how to perform a full-touchdown auto, the rest is just a head game. It's mostly about judgement, and there is no automatic degradation of mental faculties with age, unless you allow your brain to rot.
I've got 30 years to go until I'm in his shoes. I only hope that in the same circumstances that I'd be condemned just for being a tw@t and not for being an old tw@t.
I have read countless reports, over the years, where pilots have saved themselves from a full-on wire strike by performing a quickstop in the nick of time. Or avoiding other aircraft at busy, non-tower airfields, or at events such as the Silverstone Grand Prix.
I believe that when manoeuvring low level in any sort of traffic or obstacle environment, a pilot should be "spring-loaded" to perform an emergency stop (aka quickstop).
I'd hate to think that when required to perform a quickstop, that many pilots would make things infinitely worse by overpitching, poor Nr control, VRS, poor attitude/yaw control, etc.
As for the age issue, I don't think I've ever heard a passenger's age criticised before! And as for the pilot being 63. I haven't heard so much arrogant, judgemental, ageist bull$h*t in my life. There are pilots his age flying right now; the North sea being but one example.In more minor professions, such as being a world leader, for example, this age would not be an exclusion.
These guys are not flying supersonic night combat missons behind enemy lines or even landing a 430 on the back of a superyacht. It's just Charters and Caldicot out for a pleasant day, VFR flight!
Those who talk of skills degredation are kidding themselves as to how hard this flying game is from a purely physical point of view (Some, I know, need the ego boost)
Once hovering has been mastered and one has learned how to perform a full-touchdown auto, the rest is just a head game. It's mostly about judgement, and there is no automatic degradation of mental faculties with age, unless you allow your brain to rot.
I've got 30 years to go until I'm in his shoes. I only hope that in the same circumstances that I'd be condemned just for being a tw@t and not for being an old tw@t.
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Talking of jumping to conclusions, I've not seen anywhere on this thread a post from someone who witnessed the accident. Pennine Boy said it SOUNDED like VRS after a quick stop. All we know was it was a heavy landing. For all we know it could have been an engine failure or wake turbulence or anything. Lets wait for the AAIB to publish their words of wisdom.
As for Overpitched's attitude to quick stops.... Why not do them? they are fun and very satisfying when you pull of a good one. Never felt like I was close to getting vrs doing one, but was warned that it is possible in low wind conditions.
COD
As for Overpitched's attitude to quick stops.... Why not do them? they are fun and very satisfying when you pull of a good one. Never felt like I was close to getting vrs doing one, but was warned that it is possible in low wind conditions.
COD
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After over 800 hours teaching in the R22 I have done literally thousands of Quick Stops and trust me, students have messed them them up in every way possible. I can also say that I have never gotten into VRS doing it. Robbies are not that easy to get into VRS, whether you are doing an upwind or downwind quick stop.
However, there have been numerous occasions where there is not much power to stop your decent at the bottom if you get settling a little too quickly, especially if you are heavy which is really easy to do in a R22 with two fully grown adults.
Now I'm not saying that this was the cause of the accident. I just wanted to help clear up the ease of getting into one verses the other.
As far as people practicing the quick stop. Definitely. They are not a dangerous maneuver if you don't do them properly. Only practice can keep you proficient. They are also very helpful in the airport environment when you are doing an air taxi to a helipad or other area for parking.
Ratherboutside
However, there have been numerous occasions where there is not much power to stop your decent at the bottom if you get settling a little too quickly, especially if you are heavy which is really easy to do in a R22 with two fully grown adults.
Now I'm not saying that this was the cause of the accident. I just wanted to help clear up the ease of getting into one verses the other.
As far as people practicing the quick stop. Definitely. They are not a dangerous maneuver if you don't do them properly. Only practice can keep you proficient. They are also very helpful in the airport environment when you are doing an air taxi to a helipad or other area for parking.
Ratherboutside
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Bomber
As far as race gender and AGE go I don't think "equal" means "the same" Surely you are not suggesting that a person is the same at 20 as they are at 60. I think you notice the difference in everything you do as you get older... from the moment you try! to get out of bed
To say that age doesn't make a difference is to deny an awful lot of evidence to the contrary however the next time I see a 5 year old fronting up for the cpl test or a 60 yo taking out the 100m sprint at the olympics or a 20 yo elected as world leader I will agree with you. Equal I totally agree with ... "the same" not from what I see.
As far as race gender and AGE go I don't think "equal" means "the same" Surely you are not suggesting that a person is the same at 20 as they are at 60. I think you notice the difference in everything you do as you get older... from the moment you try! to get out of bed
To say that age doesn't make a difference is to deny an awful lot of evidence to the contrary however the next time I see a 5 year old fronting up for the cpl test or a 60 yo taking out the 100m sprint at the olympics or a 20 yo elected as world leader I will agree with you. Equal I totally agree with ... "the same" not from what I see.
Never flown a R22, I think you are a pretty plucky bunch of aviators to get into one. Please, I am not trying to be rude, just an honest appraisal from someone who had Her Majesty's budget to learn with many years ago. I know a lot of people didn't have that luxury.
Of course everyone must wait until they publish the accident report, but there is nothing wrong with using the replies on this thread to learn from, thats usually how we imbibe, from others. Sadly, a lot of the times that we learn are from mistakes, but I do not think that they should ever get personal. There but for the grace and all that! Should we not let the licencing authorites worry about age and the likes.
The only thing that really concerns me from reading this thread is the almost casual use of one of the most alarming exercises in helicopter aerodynamics, Vortex Ring. Thank God, nowadays its only talked about during instruction, isnt it? I should also make the point reading this thread that the R22 is generally talked about in the training or private hire role. I am certainly not trying to upset any commercial R22 operators out there.
I am certain that before any QHI sends a student off on their first solo, the student fully understands the symptoms, the requirements and most importantly the the recovery from a vortex ring state. Do people actually still go out and intentionally put helicopters into vortex ring? We stopped it in the military about 20 years ago and I have never done ot commercially. Why? because its dangerous, the stresses placed on the airframe are scary and telemetry shows that it is usually very expensive. If any of our readers believe they have experienced it below a 500' then they truly did not experience an established vortex ring state. Unless of course they crashed or were very fortunate indeed.
We all know there are several high risk areas, sadly most of us operate in those areas daily. There are also factors which aggravate those high risk areas and quick/emergency stops certainly fall into that catagory. But surely, they are purely advanced coordination exercises only!
Other than on continuation training (isn't that planned and all exercises at least thought about prior to entry). Other than an emergency situation thats going badly wrong or landing in mountainous areas with extremely bad up and downdraughts or operating in a high hover (R22) what possible reason is there for anybody to get themselves into a vortex ring state. Accidents do happen and sadly will continue to, food for thought and hopefully, discussion
Gonna get off my soapbox now
Of course everyone must wait until they publish the accident report, but there is nothing wrong with using the replies on this thread to learn from, thats usually how we imbibe, from others. Sadly, a lot of the times that we learn are from mistakes, but I do not think that they should ever get personal. There but for the grace and all that! Should we not let the licencing authorites worry about age and the likes.
The only thing that really concerns me from reading this thread is the almost casual use of one of the most alarming exercises in helicopter aerodynamics, Vortex Ring. Thank God, nowadays its only talked about during instruction, isnt it? I should also make the point reading this thread that the R22 is generally talked about in the training or private hire role. I am certainly not trying to upset any commercial R22 operators out there.
I am certain that before any QHI sends a student off on their first solo, the student fully understands the symptoms, the requirements and most importantly the the recovery from a vortex ring state. Do people actually still go out and intentionally put helicopters into vortex ring? We stopped it in the military about 20 years ago and I have never done ot commercially. Why? because its dangerous, the stresses placed on the airframe are scary and telemetry shows that it is usually very expensive. If any of our readers believe they have experienced it below a 500' then they truly did not experience an established vortex ring state. Unless of course they crashed or were very fortunate indeed.
We all know there are several high risk areas, sadly most of us operate in those areas daily. There are also factors which aggravate those high risk areas and quick/emergency stops certainly fall into that catagory. But surely, they are purely advanced coordination exercises only!
Other than on continuation training (isn't that planned and all exercises at least thought about prior to entry). Other than an emergency situation thats going badly wrong or landing in mountainous areas with extremely bad up and downdraughts or operating in a high hover (R22) what possible reason is there for anybody to get themselves into a vortex ring state. Accidents do happen and sadly will continue to, food for thought and hopefully, discussion
Gonna get off my soapbox now
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Vortex Ring
IMHO I think the problem is really that of "how to handle downwind". The UK exercise for "how to recognise VR" is conducted at altitude with very little airspeed. You feel the shudder, see the rate of descent accelerate, stuff the nose down - and that's it.
Not many pilots (particularly private) will ever get a heli in that situation except in a towering descent. And normally with those you have no height to give you energy - so you and your machine are stuffed.
Far more common is the VR experienced with a downwind landing or emergency stop. I cannot forget the video I saw at the RHC Safety Course of the 44 crash in the far east - a downwind approach for photographic purposes, pilot lost control no doubt in VR and the machine skidded across its landing spot on its side.
Sadly, the landing spot was atop a skyscraper hotel and the crash didn't end there but 15 floors down the side.
So - more instruction should be given in downwind approaches and handling. And an emergency stop comes in that category.
Not many pilots (particularly private) will ever get a heli in that situation except in a towering descent. And normally with those you have no height to give you energy - so you and your machine are stuffed.
Far more common is the VR experienced with a downwind landing or emergency stop. I cannot forget the video I saw at the RHC Safety Course of the 44 crash in the far east - a downwind approach for photographic purposes, pilot lost control no doubt in VR and the machine skidded across its landing spot on its side.
Sadly, the landing spot was atop a skyscraper hotel and the crash didn't end there but 15 floors down the side.
So - more instruction should be given in downwind approaches and handling. And an emergency stop comes in that category.
Last edited by headsethair; 23rd Feb 2004 at 02:59.
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Just got to weigh in on this one. Unless something broke, it was pilot error. And in a belated reply to a post a little earlier from "over 800 hours of Robbie instruction", if you run out of power at the end of your quick stop, you're settling......
Quite simple really.
One for Mostofa. I don't know what kind of flying you do, or have done but to say that you can't experience settling below 500' is quite ridiculous. You are obviously not nor ever have been a utility pilot.
Lest anyone take offence, and I know you are a sensitive lot over there, none intended.
Quite simple really.
One for Mostofa. I don't know what kind of flying you do, or have done but to say that you can't experience settling below 500' is quite ridiculous. You are obviously not nor ever have been a utility pilot.
Lest anyone take offence, and I know you are a sensitive lot over there, none intended.
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Maybe "settling with power" is a bad term. Maybe it should be called "settling with power available" I think if you run out of power and settle then that is overpitching.
And I think you should maybe re-read mostofas post.
And I think you should maybe re-read mostofas post.
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In my experience:
VRS: a well defined and developed state where the rotor is operating in a self-sustaining vortex resulting in high rate of descent, requires positive action to exit
Settling with power: a state where the helicopter is continuing to descend despite power applied, usually made worse by recirculating air, turbulence, and high DA conditions
Overpitching: a condition where the pilot has commanded a higher pitch setting on the rotor blades than the engine(s) can sustain, causing a RRPM droop and subsequent loss of performance
all different and dangewrous in their own right.
VRS: a well defined and developed state where the rotor is operating in a self-sustaining vortex resulting in high rate of descent, requires positive action to exit
Settling with power: a state where the helicopter is continuing to descend despite power applied, usually made worse by recirculating air, turbulence, and high DA conditions
Overpitching: a condition where the pilot has commanded a higher pitch setting on the rotor blades than the engine(s) can sustain, causing a RRPM droop and subsequent loss of performance
all different and dangewrous in their own right.