HOUR METERS and Legislation!
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
From: Australia
HOUR METERS and Legislation!
Now This topic is set to attract some interest im sur and i expect some varied resonse but ive always begged the question?
why do not the authorities weather here in OZ or elsewhere make them mandatory.
Operators and authoritys always complain about Jo blogs and his helo operation, his pilot say boss skimps on maintenance , log books arent upto date, only the altimiter works on the machine.
my first job! i worked for an operator who had been in the industry for 30 years owned a 206, i come to check the hour meter to log time....shock, i cannot find the dials i ask ( maybe not a wise thing to do) is this aircraft fitted with an hour meter, a true and correct indication of ttis, the resopnse was , son use your watch fill in the daily book and ill do the rest. oh ok i said, i just asnt to fly helicopters!!
turns out this helo has never had a hobbs fitted, poor old belly tank here logs the daily record sheet for hours flown and owner fills out maintenance release. ok i knew my duties to fill out the MR but when boss says leave it up to me young buck, you do and im sure some of you have, you do not question otherwise your limited career is over before it began.
this is a limited example, i have worked for many professional operators since and im now cheif pilot of an operation.
but why do not the autoritys police this issue more thoroughly, why do not they make hour meters a MANDATORY requirement instead of the honesty quarts or casio system?
i beleive the new equipment like eurocopter gear have the right tamper proof idea when it comes to recording time in service, when it boils down to it its your life in your hands, i know there are commercial pressures put on operators and skimping time isnt the answer so why do it, if you have to do it dont!! and get out of the industry.
there have been too many accidents attributing to shonks and who pays for it in the end, young joe whos just finnished his CPLH and just want to build hours
when i first started in the industry 10 years ago i thought wow helicopters, these operators must be so proffesional, my how i was so wrong, ive vowed never to become so low.
i beleive it it is getting better, but getting back to my question when will the authoritys police the mandatory use of a correct recording device for entry into the Maintenance release document.
im sorry to have appeared so discouraged but it is a issue that really bugs me.
time for bed i think
cheers
why do not the authorities weather here in OZ or elsewhere make them mandatory.
Operators and authoritys always complain about Jo blogs and his helo operation, his pilot say boss skimps on maintenance , log books arent upto date, only the altimiter works on the machine.
my first job! i worked for an operator who had been in the industry for 30 years owned a 206, i come to check the hour meter to log time....shock, i cannot find the dials i ask ( maybe not a wise thing to do) is this aircraft fitted with an hour meter, a true and correct indication of ttis, the resopnse was , son use your watch fill in the daily book and ill do the rest. oh ok i said, i just asnt to fly helicopters!!
turns out this helo has never had a hobbs fitted, poor old belly tank here logs the daily record sheet for hours flown and owner fills out maintenance release. ok i knew my duties to fill out the MR but when boss says leave it up to me young buck, you do and im sure some of you have, you do not question otherwise your limited career is over before it began.
this is a limited example, i have worked for many professional operators since and im now cheif pilot of an operation.
but why do not the autoritys police this issue more thoroughly, why do not they make hour meters a MANDATORY requirement instead of the honesty quarts or casio system?
i beleive the new equipment like eurocopter gear have the right tamper proof idea when it comes to recording time in service, when it boils down to it its your life in your hands, i know there are commercial pressures put on operators and skimping time isnt the answer so why do it, if you have to do it dont!! and get out of the industry.
there have been too many accidents attributing to shonks and who pays for it in the end, young joe whos just finnished his CPLH and just want to build hours
when i first started in the industry 10 years ago i thought wow helicopters, these operators must be so proffesional, my how i was so wrong, ive vowed never to become so low.
i beleive it it is getting better, but getting back to my question when will the authoritys police the mandatory use of a correct recording device for entry into the Maintenance release document.
im sorry to have appeared so discouraged but it is a issue that really bugs me.
time for bed i think
cheers
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,330
Likes: 74
From: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Nothing has changed........
Transport Canada recently sent round a circular asking for opinions as to whether Chief Pilots should sign for training received rather than have pilots do PPCs - we alll know that about half the companies would not do the training and simply sign it up!! Hobbs meters are no different.
Phil
Transport Canada recently sent round a circular asking for opinions as to whether Chief Pilots should sign for training received rather than have pilots do PPCs - we alll know that about half the companies would not do the training and simply sign it up!! Hobbs meters are no different.
Phil
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: Both Hemisphere's...Unfortunately
Let me throw a few statements in before someone throws a pile of dirt towards the Regulator.
Any community gets what its prepared to demand, be that a high standard of living, a safe environment to live in, or other benefits....in other words if they collectively decide to fix their problem any troublemakers will find it hard to survive.
It’s not a policing problem; it’s a community [Industry] problem.
We the Industry can if we wish make it impossible for these rogue operators to function...absolutely impossible.
But we are just as bad as we have always been at addressing the problems, and we find it easier just place it on the regulator to solve the problem for us.
For this [cheating / murdering] to happen there has to be complicity, from an operator and the pilot. Normally these pilots are long term bush pilots wish a financial incentive to push the limits…..remember it’s a long time since new pilots have started there careers in mustering.
If we were prepared, or the government compelled us to show our books for audit, including Taxation, salary, bank accounts, salary slips, income verses expenditure, then these guys would be caught out very quickly. But as there is complicity within that small group, then we all know that won’t happen.
Let those that ever buy a 47, 22 or 300 be very very aware of its history……
Any community gets what its prepared to demand, be that a high standard of living, a safe environment to live in, or other benefits....in other words if they collectively decide to fix their problem any troublemakers will find it hard to survive.
It’s not a policing problem; it’s a community [Industry] problem.
We the Industry can if we wish make it impossible for these rogue operators to function...absolutely impossible.
But we are just as bad as we have always been at addressing the problems, and we find it easier just place it on the regulator to solve the problem for us.
For this [cheating / murdering] to happen there has to be complicity, from an operator and the pilot. Normally these pilots are long term bush pilots wish a financial incentive to push the limits…..remember it’s a long time since new pilots have started there careers in mustering.
If we were prepared, or the government compelled us to show our books for audit, including Taxation, salary, bank accounts, salary slips, income verses expenditure, then these guys would be caught out very quickly. But as there is complicity within that small group, then we all know that won’t happen.
Let those that ever buy a 47, 22 or 300 be very very aware of its history……
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 1
From: Australia
Ahh, the feds can already check what you have billed versus flying time logged versus maintenance release entries versus fuel records...
If they want to go through you they will.
As you say, plenty to catch the crooks, quite quickly.
But they are not.
If they want to go through you they will.
As you say, plenty to catch the crooks, quite quickly.
But they are not.
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,051
Likes: 0
From: CA
Not really Currawong:
...yeah we billed him 3hrs for 2hrs flown. Touched him up a bit....no law against that. We can charge what we want.
Oh! that fuel...yeah thats out at the station in drums. Wanna run out and take a look? Its only 4hrs by 150...
Put a bunch in drums in the park as well. So we can refuel on the burning jobs.....
Q: excuse me mr LAME engineer. how come there are no snags recorded in the flight log by the pilot?
A: why should there be? I look after my helicopters and they don't break down.
Been there done that. True conversations.
...yeah we billed him 3hrs for 2hrs flown. Touched him up a bit....no law against that. We can charge what we want.
Oh! that fuel...yeah thats out at the station in drums. Wanna run out and take a look? Its only 4hrs by 150...
Put a bunch in drums in the park as well. So we can refuel on the burning jobs.....
Q: excuse me mr LAME engineer. how come there are no snags recorded in the flight log by the pilot?
A: why should there be? I look after my helicopters and they don't break down.
Been there done that. True conversations.
Thread Starter
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
From: Australia
Thanks Guys!!
Ok im back on track today....DAY OFF!! hows my spelling so far? so big deal i had a few beers and my fingers walked all over the keyboard!
Mr Galt....yes english is my first language, however im also fluent in another.
Red Wine...i dont suffer from hangovers!! lucky me huh
currawong...thanks for the compliment!
Mr selfish...can you show me where the spell checker is i cant seem to find it?.
The trend toward data recorders seems to be the answer in the short term i guess. I once remember a story of an operator cross hiring his acft to another and secretly fitting a meter in the tail boom, other guy got caught out didnt he!.
I honestly think CASA need to pull finger on this issue, touble is like Mr Selfish said, they are too busy, understaffed or the resources arent there. maybe if the started to use the penalty system for offences as they have outlined in CAR'S then they would be able to find the resources.
Ok who would like to check my post for mistakes now...!!!!
cheers guys ( PS im not offended )
Ok im back on track today....DAY OFF!! hows my spelling so far? so big deal i had a few beers and my fingers walked all over the keyboard!
Mr Galt....yes english is my first language, however im also fluent in another.
Red Wine...i dont suffer from hangovers!! lucky me huh
currawong...thanks for the compliment!
Mr selfish...can you show me where the spell checker is i cant seem to find it?.
The trend toward data recorders seems to be the answer in the short term i guess. I once remember a story of an operator cross hiring his acft to another and secretly fitting a meter in the tail boom, other guy got caught out didnt he!.
I honestly think CASA need to pull finger on this issue, touble is like Mr Selfish said, they are too busy, understaffed or the resources arent there. maybe if the started to use the penalty system for offences as they have outlined in CAR'S then they would be able to find the resources.
Ok who would like to check my post for mistakes now...!!!!
cheers guys ( PS im not offended )
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,018
Likes: 73
From: Pewsey, UK
Mr S / belly tank:
There's no PPRuNe post reply spell checker as such, best bet is to compose your post in Word / some other program which does spoil chucking and then copy the text and paste it in here.
Alternatively, don't post pissed !
There's no PPRuNe post reply spell checker as such, best bet is to compose your post in Word / some other program which does spoil chucking and then copy the text and paste it in here.
Alternatively, don't post pissed !
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 1
From: Australia
With you on that one Steve76.
However, pulling your records from your fuel vendor is not that hard. Even if you purchase from several using different trading names etc. And can be done without even leaving the office.
Q. "So you can fly? What are you like at winding back tacho's?"
"We have a dispensation from the department to go over 100 hours"
"Can I see it?"
"No".....
However, pulling your records from your fuel vendor is not that hard. Even if you purchase from several using different trading names etc. And can be done without even leaving the office.
Q. "So you can fly? What are you like at winding back tacho's?"
"We have a dispensation from the department to go over 100 hours"
"Can I see it?"
"No".....
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,848
Likes: 0
From: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
My business is worked on a 85% dry basis. My clients provide my fuel..... How do you think CASA is going to check my fuel reciepts and correlate it into anything usefull?????
I don't think that fuel records are a valid check on anything that requires a burden of proof.
I don't think that fuel records are a valid check on anything that requires a burden of proof.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: TI
To add 2 Euros (hell of a deal at the current rates).
Having been to a few places including Australia and still have valid qualifications there and New Zealand, there are some huge differences in the regulations. The "time recording" culture exists in both places and probably wiped out a few people in NZ before Aus.
New Zealand has adopted the US FAR's as a "guideline" with differences as required. Australia say's it's doing the same, but to quote an Australian ex polly "the baby has got thrown out with the bathwater" in my opinion. You never know they may get it right one day but I have my doubts.
In NZ flight time recorders are mandatory under Part 91 and shall be approved and operating.
The "100 hour thing" - (b) Unless specifically prohibited by another Civil Aviation Rule, an
Airworthiness Directive issued under the Act, or a manufacturer’s
requirement, the inspection periods specified in 91.607, 91.609, 91.611,
91.613, and 91.615 may be extended by up to 10% to allow—
(1) accomplishment of an inspection during other scheduled maintenance; or
(2) completion of the delivery of an aircraft to the place where the inspection can be done.
(c) When applying the provisions of paragraph (b)—
(1) the extension that is applied must be recorded in the appropriate maintenance record; and
(2) the period to the next required inspection must begin on the first day of the extension period.
The catch here being "a manufacturers requirement" so it may not apply in all cases.
Then again you can fly over water without floats up to autorotation distance plus 10 miles, operate air transport Single engine VFR at night as well and carry people with a sling load. All the previous have their proviso's but at least they exist!
Having been to a few places including Australia and still have valid qualifications there and New Zealand, there are some huge differences in the regulations. The "time recording" culture exists in both places and probably wiped out a few people in NZ before Aus.
New Zealand has adopted the US FAR's as a "guideline" with differences as required. Australia say's it's doing the same, but to quote an Australian ex polly "the baby has got thrown out with the bathwater" in my opinion. You never know they may get it right one day but I have my doubts.
In NZ flight time recorders are mandatory under Part 91 and shall be approved and operating.
The "100 hour thing" - (b) Unless specifically prohibited by another Civil Aviation Rule, an
Airworthiness Directive issued under the Act, or a manufacturer’s
requirement, the inspection periods specified in 91.607, 91.609, 91.611,
91.613, and 91.615 may be extended by up to 10% to allow—
(1) accomplishment of an inspection during other scheduled maintenance; or
(2) completion of the delivery of an aircraft to the place where the inspection can be done.
(c) When applying the provisions of paragraph (b)—
(1) the extension that is applied must be recorded in the appropriate maintenance record; and
(2) the period to the next required inspection must begin on the first day of the extension period.
The catch here being "a manufacturers requirement" so it may not apply in all cases.
Then again you can fly over water without floats up to autorotation distance plus 10 miles, operate air transport Single engine VFR at night as well and carry people with a sling load. All the previous have their proviso's but at least they exist!
