Questions about obtaining an Instrument Rating
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paco
As mentioned earlier if you hold a CAA Helicopter Commercial then it is only training as required for a 170A and a checkride till the end of 2002. You must be type rated in the aircraft that you do the test in. Aircraft must be capable of IFR so it's mostly AS355....
If you have a CAA or JAA airplane instrument then it is only a 10 hour add-on after the end of 2002 according to JAR's.
For all others after the end of 2002 it is a full 55 hour JAA approved course for which you will get 5 hours off for owning a Commercial licence. Nothing for a foreign instrument.
There has been some rumours on the Wanabees forum that these regulations are being looked at so that pilots with experience won't have to do the full course!!!
Interesting to read that other places can offer training as last week the CAA informed me that the only three available was Cabair, Bristow and PAS. Nobody else could give a 170A sign-off, ONLY these three. You could train anywhere but would have to go to one of these three for a 170A sign-off. Can anyone confirm that that I received bum information from the CAA??
Bristow as mentioned above are unable to help till Feb 2003, PAS haven't currently got an instructor on staff to do the training!!! and that just leaves Cabair. Which IMHO isn't choice in the marketplace!!!! Fast Helicopters (Mike Green) have informed me that they are able to offer training but I need to chase them further.
Possibly the place in the south of France is Eurocopter (AS355) via Helisim who haven't answered email requests. Another option might be Eurocopter in Germany (BO105) who on their website offer instrument training but also don't bother replying to requests for information!!!
As mentioned earlier if you hold a CAA Helicopter Commercial then it is only training as required for a 170A and a checkride till the end of 2002. You must be type rated in the aircraft that you do the test in. Aircraft must be capable of IFR so it's mostly AS355....
If you have a CAA or JAA airplane instrument then it is only a 10 hour add-on after the end of 2002 according to JAR's.
For all others after the end of 2002 it is a full 55 hour JAA approved course for which you will get 5 hours off for owning a Commercial licence. Nothing for a foreign instrument.
There has been some rumours on the Wanabees forum that these regulations are being looked at so that pilots with experience won't have to do the full course!!!
Interesting to read that other places can offer training as last week the CAA informed me that the only three available was Cabair, Bristow and PAS. Nobody else could give a 170A sign-off, ONLY these three. You could train anywhere but would have to go to one of these three for a 170A sign-off. Can anyone confirm that that I received bum information from the CAA??
Bristow as mentioned above are unable to help till Feb 2003, PAS haven't currently got an instructor on staff to do the training!!! and that just leaves Cabair. Which IMHO isn't choice in the marketplace!!!! Fast Helicopters (Mike Green) have informed me that they are able to offer training but I need to chase them further.
Possibly the place in the south of France is Eurocopter (AS355) via Helisim who haven't answered email requests. Another option might be Eurocopter in Germany (BO105) who on their website offer instrument training but also don't bother replying to requests for information!!!
Last edited by Rotorbike; 14th Jun 2002 at 05:25.
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Barry - the gen posted in this thread is pretty much the full story - at risk of tedious repetition:
1. For a UK IR(H) you are required under JARs to undergo a course of training at an Instrument FTO (These are Bristow Helicopters, Cabair or PAS, as correctly listed by Rotorbike)
2. The course, as you will be aware, consists of 55 hours - of which 15 hours min. must be in a multi-engine helicopter & 20 hours (max) in a simulator. This is reduced to 50 hours for holders of a CPL(H).
3. A single engine rating course is 50 hours of which 15 hours (max) may be in the simulator. You would then require additional 5 hours in a multi-engine type to upgrade to ME IR(H).
4. Until Dec 31st 2002 the CAA 'intends to be as flexible as possible in allowing license holders to take advantage of the full transition period'. Until this date, exemption from having to undergo an approved course of training will be given to:
a. Holders of UK IR(A) - plus (in helicopters) 50 hours PIC, including 20 hours X-country, 20 hours instrument time, 5 hours instrument time in the helicopter to be tested in (most of the latter would be achieved in training).
b. 'QSPs' (Service - read 'military' - Pilots) plus (in helicopters) 200 hours total, 100 hours pic, 40 hours instruments & 5 hours inst. on type.
c. Pilots with 400 hours PIC on helicopters......
(the above is an 'interpretation' of the regs., but mostly the truth).
If you are 'exempt approved' training as in 4. above, then there are several providers who are able to complete your training to initial instrument rating test standard - contacts have been mentioned in previous posts. Otherwise the three FTOs (possibly only two) are your only choice at present. And yes, they are very busy.
1. For a UK IR(H) you are required under JARs to undergo a course of training at an Instrument FTO (These are Bristow Helicopters, Cabair or PAS, as correctly listed by Rotorbike)
2. The course, as you will be aware, consists of 55 hours - of which 15 hours min. must be in a multi-engine helicopter & 20 hours (max) in a simulator. This is reduced to 50 hours for holders of a CPL(H).
3. A single engine rating course is 50 hours of which 15 hours (max) may be in the simulator. You would then require additional 5 hours in a multi-engine type to upgrade to ME IR(H).
4. Until Dec 31st 2002 the CAA 'intends to be as flexible as possible in allowing license holders to take advantage of the full transition period'. Until this date, exemption from having to undergo an approved course of training will be given to:
a. Holders of UK IR(A) - plus (in helicopters) 50 hours PIC, including 20 hours X-country, 20 hours instrument time, 5 hours instrument time in the helicopter to be tested in (most of the latter would be achieved in training).
b. 'QSPs' (Service - read 'military' - Pilots) plus (in helicopters) 200 hours total, 100 hours pic, 40 hours instruments & 5 hours inst. on type.
c. Pilots with 400 hours PIC on helicopters......
(the above is an 'interpretation' of the regs., but mostly the truth).
If you are 'exempt approved' training as in 4. above, then there are several providers who are able to complete your training to initial instrument rating test standard - contacts have been mentioned in previous posts. Otherwise the three FTOs (possibly only two) are your only choice at present. And yes, they are very busy.
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IR(H) or Hours building?
I'm hoping to eventually get a North Sea co-pilot position. Got a CPL(H) and less than 200hrs right now.
With a view to that - would it be better to spend the money (about 25k pounds) on an Instrument Rating or on building hours? I'm guessing 25k is about 250-300hrs in the UK..?
On one hand, I can see that the experience is valuable but, on the other hand, if you have the IR, you're cheaper to bring on-line.... Also, I feel like if I have to pay to fly with a CPL, I might as well be receiving some training for my money!
With a view to that - would it be better to spend the money (about 25k pounds) on an Instrument Rating or on building hours? I'm guessing 25k is about 250-300hrs in the UK..?
On one hand, I can see that the experience is valuable but, on the other hand, if you have the IR, you're cheaper to bring on-line.... Also, I feel like if I have to pay to fly with a CPL, I might as well be receiving some training for my money!
Last edited by buttline; 20th Jun 2002 at 05:23.
Difficult decision that one! If I was you I'd probably speak to all the possible employers first before committing all that money. (and I guess an IR is nearer to 30k and over than 25k) Get in touch with Scotia (Alan Veale) and Bristows (Graham Dainty) and see if they would consider you. 
The Original Whirly
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If it helps your decision at all, R22 self fly hire in the UK is around £140-£150/hr. You may get it slightly cheaper paying a lump sum in advance at some places, but not a lot. That means your £25K will buy you less than 200 hrs 
Good luck; I'm in roughly the same position, but decided I'd really like to instruct anyway, and wasn't sure I fancied the North Sea. I'm having loads of fun and learning a lot, but it's still annoying to have to pay a fortune to fly when you have a CPL, isn't it?
Good luck; I'm in roughly the same position, but decided I'd really like to instruct anyway, and wasn't sure I fancied the North Sea. I'm having loads of fun and learning a lot, but it's still annoying to have to pay a fortune to fly when you have a CPL, isn't it?
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buttline.
I have to agree with woolf on this you should check to see if the North Sea operators are willing to hire you, before doing anything else.
I went for an interview at one of the North Sea operators last fall without having my IR and what I got from that was a very postive attitude towards employment as soon as I got I got my IR. So I went home and got it but now I'm waiting for the CAA to start issuing JAR licenses...
I'd recommend you to get the IR.
What I want to know is why the IR is so expensive? Is it because you have to do it in a multi-engine helicopter or what? This is a ridicilous amount of money required for attaining work privileges, people who have this money at hand are usually into some other kind of business, me thinks.
Happy landings.
Heli-Ice
I have to agree with woolf on this you should check to see if the North Sea operators are willing to hire you, before doing anything else.
I went for an interview at one of the North Sea operators last fall without having my IR and what I got from that was a very postive attitude towards employment as soon as I got I got my IR. So I went home and got it but now I'm waiting for the CAA to start issuing JAR licenses...
I'd recommend you to get the IR.What I want to know is why the IR is so expensive? Is it because you have to do it in a multi-engine helicopter or what? This is a ridicilous amount of money required for attaining work privileges, people who have this money at hand are usually into some other kind of business, me thinks.
Happy landings.
Heli-Ice
Last edited by Heliport; 19th Jun 2002 at 10:59.
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Heli-ice said - "What I want to know is why the IR is so expensive? Is it because you have to do it in a multi-engine helicopter or what?"
Bang on. Thank you, CAA. They are paranoid of single engine failures, so it makes it rather hard to get an instrument-rated machine with a single engine. I did hear, however, that there is a lone IFR jetranger operating out of Redhill.
The Americans have a more enlightened view.
Bang on. Thank you, CAA. They are paranoid of single engine failures, so it makes it rather hard to get an instrument-rated machine with a single engine. I did hear, however, that there is a lone IFR jetranger operating out of Redhill.
The Americans have a more enlightened view.
My 50 cents worth....
I can't believe that you guys in Europe would consider spending that amount of money on a IF Rating so early in your career.
In fact to be brutally honest, you really have no career at the moment.
Why not postpone the cojoe slot and work on getting some command time up?
You will have an easier time to the command seat on the twins later and you will bring more experience to your offshore employer.
Offshore is not all its cracked up to be and you will spend a lot of time in the LH seat before being considered to become aircraft captain. You may even hate it but then be committed to paying back or recouping your massive investment and be forced to endure it for many years.
Additionally,
To even think about doing the IF rating in a twin is crazy! I would tell them where to stick it. The CAA will accept overseas flying towards the CAA equivalent licence... they just won't accept the exams. There's a host of schools in North America or Australia where you can do it in a Robinson.
Better still, go out and do a Fixed wing PPL and the IFR on top and then convert it to the Helo. There is no difference between Helo and slabwing and it saves you buckets of dosh.
I can't believe that you guys in Europe would consider spending that amount of money on a IF Rating so early in your career.
In fact to be brutally honest, you really have no career at the moment.
Why not postpone the cojoe slot and work on getting some command time up?
You will have an easier time to the command seat on the twins later and you will bring more experience to your offshore employer.
Offshore is not all its cracked up to be and you will spend a lot of time in the LH seat before being considered to become aircraft captain. You may even hate it but then be committed to paying back or recouping your massive investment and be forced to endure it for many years.
Additionally,
To even think about doing the IF rating in a twin is crazy! I would tell them where to stick it. The CAA will accept overseas flying towards the CAA equivalent licence... they just won't accept the exams. There's a host of schools in North America or Australia where you can do it in a Robinson.
Better still, go out and do a Fixed wing PPL and the IFR on top and then convert it to the Helo. There is no difference between Helo and slabwing and it saves you buckets of dosh.
Last edited by Heliport; 19th Jun 2002 at 11:01.
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hey Buttline,
I have instructed, done commercial work onshore and am now a co-pilot offshore and therefore feel qualified to venture an opinion , and it seems to me it is all about risk and return and the state of the north sea market at the time.
1. if you have an instructors rating you will find work if you try hard enough (even if it is just trial lessons at the weekend for a while) especially if you are prepared to travel.
2.commercial work onshore is hard to get with less than 1000 P1, although you may be lucky, and the best way to get those hours is through instructing.
3.co-joe offshore is the best way in but also the most risky approach, last year both bristow and scotia hired a lot and sponsored the IR's because they were short, at the moment scotia have a surplus and are talking about losing people (hopefully with no redundancies) they go from not hiring, to hiring people with IR's, to hiring with no IR's but high hours and sponsoring them, to hiring people with no IR and low hours at the bottom of the heap.
for me to pay for your own IR now seems a poor bet, wheras a year ago it would have been a good bet therefore it is high risk.
staring at the bottom, i.e instructor rating with your CPL is low risk and more likely to succeed but also the returns are lower
lastly, single engine IR is only on one Jetranger owned by bristow through a historic anomaly training is a norwich, and is only suitable for people going offshore.
I have instructed, done commercial work onshore and am now a co-pilot offshore and therefore feel qualified to venture an opinion , and it seems to me it is all about risk and return and the state of the north sea market at the time.
1. if you have an instructors rating you will find work if you try hard enough (even if it is just trial lessons at the weekend for a while) especially if you are prepared to travel.
2.commercial work onshore is hard to get with less than 1000 P1, although you may be lucky, and the best way to get those hours is through instructing.
3.co-joe offshore is the best way in but also the most risky approach, last year both bristow and scotia hired a lot and sponsored the IR's because they were short, at the moment scotia have a surplus and are talking about losing people (hopefully with no redundancies) they go from not hiring, to hiring people with IR's, to hiring with no IR's but high hours and sponsoring them, to hiring people with no IR and low hours at the bottom of the heap.
for me to pay for your own IR now seems a poor bet, wheras a year ago it would have been a good bet therefore it is high risk.
staring at the bottom, i.e instructor rating with your CPL is low risk and more likely to succeed but also the returns are lower
lastly, single engine IR is only on one Jetranger owned by bristow through a historic anomaly training is a norwich, and is only suitable for people going offshore.
If you are serious in investing the equivalent of more than $A60k, then why not get value for money and spend it down here? Kestrel Aviation , with whom I have no affiliation or commercial interest) have just invested in a Frasca 342 sim., which is approved for instrument rating training. Alternatively, Professional Helicopter Services have a neat training set up on the Gold Coast, you could invest some of that money on gaining hours with them.
You'll find the cost of both helicopter hire, and cost and standard of living, somewhat more attractive that the sunny North Sea
You'll find the cost of both helicopter hire, and cost and standard of living, somewhat more attractive that the sunny North Sea
Last edited by Heliport; 19th Jun 2002 at 11:04.
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Decision, decision
Unfortunately to do an instrument rating you must do a full course as you don't have 400 hours PIC. Reference: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...threadid=56466
This would mean a minimum of 15 hours of AS355 (twin) instrument time at 1000 quid an hour plus type rating plus checkride. Before this you have to do a further 35 hours in flight or simulator. I would be very surprised if it came in at under 25K!!!
Unless you intend waiting till Feb 2003 for the first available slot at Bristow Helicopters Training.
Spending this money puts you on the list for TWO UK companies. When there just aren't any openings with either. For example Bristow currently have over 100 resumes with CPL or better AND no expected vacancies for the remainder of 2002.
Must you return to the UK??? Why not try the rest of the world???
Have you not thought of getting a FAA instrument instructor licence whilst in Florida?? Then working out there (presume you are at HAI so can get a J1 visa) to build the time till over 500 or 1000 then returning to the UK to instruct and waiting for the North Sea 'call'!!!
Pound for pound, I don't think it is a very good 'bet' at the moment.
But you have to be 'in to win' and with the UK instrument you would be that!!!
Good luck with your decision!!!
This would mean a minimum of 15 hours of AS355 (twin) instrument time at 1000 quid an hour plus type rating plus checkride. Before this you have to do a further 35 hours in flight or simulator. I would be very surprised if it came in at under 25K!!!
Unless you intend waiting till Feb 2003 for the first available slot at Bristow Helicopters Training.
Spending this money puts you on the list for TWO UK companies. When there just aren't any openings with either. For example Bristow currently have over 100 resumes with CPL or better AND no expected vacancies for the remainder of 2002.
Must you return to the UK??? Why not try the rest of the world???
Have you not thought of getting a FAA instrument instructor licence whilst in Florida?? Then working out there (presume you are at HAI so can get a J1 visa) to build the time till over 500 or 1000 then returning to the UK to instruct and waiting for the North Sea 'call'!!!
Pound for pound, I don't think it is a very good 'bet' at the moment.
But you have to be 'in to win' and with the UK instrument you would be that!!!
Good luck with your decision!!!
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Thanks to all for your responses.
The thing that makes the decision is harder is that, although employment prospects are gloomy right now, some of my instructors worked the North Sea for many years and say that things can change at a moment's notice.
I really don't want to instruct with just 200hrs so I think I'll go for it.
Many thanks,
Barry
The thing that makes the decision is harder is that, although employment prospects are gloomy right now, some of my instructors worked the North Sea for many years and say that things can change at a moment's notice.
I really don't want to instruct with just 200hrs so I think I'll go for it.
Many thanks,
Barry
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Why don't you build your hours in South Africa? With 25K you will get atleast 260 hours flying with an instructor and also learn more. You will also be able to do your IR in 22's. With the pound/rand situation, it will be more hours for your buck. Contact me if you want some more info. i will set you up with the best school and instructors. Obviously the place I flew at...hahaha.....
hire&fly: around $130 per hour
instruction: around $144 per hour
ciao!
[email protected]
hire&fly: around $130 per hour
instruction: around $144 per hour
ciao!
[email protected]
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Buttline, I'm in the same situation as you, hoping to go co-joe in the North Sea and wondering whether the way forward on top of a minimum hours CPL is IR or another 110 hours and then the Instructor rating. When I spoke to Graham Dainty about this a few months ago he said that an IR on top of a 200 hour CPL was of much more interest to him than an Instructor with 1000 hours in R22s. Of course that doesn't mean you're 'in' if you get an IR.
A question for those that have IRs: How many hours do you have to fly annually under instrument conditions to keep the IR current? In a Twin Squirrel at GBP 1000 per hour the commitment to maintaining the IR would quickly pall. Can the annual requirement be done in a sim?
A question for those that have IRs: How many hours do you have to fly annually under instrument conditions to keep the IR current? In a Twin Squirrel at GBP 1000 per hour the commitment to maintaining the IR would quickly pall. Can the annual requirement be done in a sim?
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Changes
These are the recent changes to airplane requirements for issuance of an IR and I would expect that helicopters should get the same requirements shortly. Email is in at the CAA requesting clarification if these regulations will be for helicopters too.
Looks like the cheapest route, once training as required expires, will become foreign IR then 15 hour JAR conversion!!! A far sensible solution than the full 50/55 hour course.
www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/whatsnew.asp
Policy Information/Update - JAR IR Training/Credits for ICAO IR Holders............21 June 2002
In our last Policy Update of 1st November 2001 it was stated that an ICAO licence holder with IR, who does not meet the JAR-FCL ATPL experience requirements, shall undergo a full approved training course for the issue of an IR. It was further stated that this policy was being reviewed. We have now received a response from a representative of UK training organisations and the following conversion requirements have been agreed and may be implemented with immediate effect:
“The holder of an IR, issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 by a non-JAA State shall, (subject to the notes below), complete all items of the appropriate JAR IR syllabus including at least 15 hours of flight instruction, of which 5 hours may be in a FNPT 1*, or 10 hours in a FNPT 2* or Flight Simulator*, plus any additional training considered necessary by the FTO, plus a 170A Flight Test and a JAR IR Skill Test.”
NOTES:
* Such synthetic training device shall be appropriately approved.
The holder of an ATPL(A) or CPL(A)/IR issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 who meets the 1500 hours flying experience requirements on multi-pilot aeroplanes (as PIC or co-pilot) of Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.015 may be exempted from the requirements of the IR(A) modular course prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge examinations and the IR(A) Skill Test.
Other exceptional cases should continue be referred to the CAA.
These credits shall remain subject to review in discussion with the JAA and representatives of UK training organisations.
Rotorbike
Looks like the cheapest route, once training as required expires, will become foreign IR then 15 hour JAR conversion!!! A far sensible solution than the full 50/55 hour course.
www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/whatsnew.asp
Policy Information/Update - JAR IR Training/Credits for ICAO IR Holders............21 June 2002
In our last Policy Update of 1st November 2001 it was stated that an ICAO licence holder with IR, who does not meet the JAR-FCL ATPL experience requirements, shall undergo a full approved training course for the issue of an IR. It was further stated that this policy was being reviewed. We have now received a response from a representative of UK training organisations and the following conversion requirements have been agreed and may be implemented with immediate effect:
“The holder of an IR, issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 by a non-JAA State shall, (subject to the notes below), complete all items of the appropriate JAR IR syllabus including at least 15 hours of flight instruction, of which 5 hours may be in a FNPT 1*, or 10 hours in a FNPT 2* or Flight Simulator*, plus any additional training considered necessary by the FTO, plus a 170A Flight Test and a JAR IR Skill Test.”
NOTES:
* Such synthetic training device shall be appropriately approved.
The holder of an ATPL(A) or CPL(A)/IR issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 who meets the 1500 hours flying experience requirements on multi-pilot aeroplanes (as PIC or co-pilot) of Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.015 may be exempted from the requirements of the IR(A) modular course prior to undertaking the theoretical knowledge examinations and the IR(A) Skill Test.
Other exceptional cases should continue be referred to the CAA.
These credits shall remain subject to review in discussion with the JAA and representatives of UK training organisations.
Rotorbike
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Wow! Even more reason to be in the U.S. An FAA heli IR rating is about 7k sterling - compared to 30k sterling in twins at home.
Does anyone out there have both ratings? Are there any concerns about going this route?
I know the U.S. does some things that aren't done in the UK such as ILS backcourses and circling to land approaches. Anything more contravercial?
Does anyone out there have both ratings? Are there any concerns about going this route?
I know the U.S. does some things that aren't done in the UK such as ILS backcourses and circling to land approaches. Anything more contravercial?
Last edited by buttline; 25th Jun 2002 at 02:43.
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Well there is a another nail in the coffin of UK training schools then!
On the basis of that information, after the end of this year almost everyone will be better off to do their IR training almost anywhere other than the UK, with the UK "conversion".
As JAR FCL pans out I am increasingly glad that I have been fortunate enough to move on from UK training and not rely on it to give me a living.
Is the CAA the only aviation regulator that uses reverse trade barriers to oppress its own industry??
On the basis of that information, after the end of this year almost everyone will be better off to do their IR training almost anywhere other than the UK, with the UK "conversion".
As JAR FCL pans out I am increasingly glad that I have been fortunate enough to move on from UK training and not rely on it to give me a living.
Is the CAA the only aviation regulator that uses reverse trade barriers to oppress its own industry??