Age Concern: Am I too old?

[RDRickster]

mrgogetter, check your PM's. I'd post the information on PPRuNe, but the links go to other forums & resources (so I won't post it publically). Great advice above.

[Whirlybird]

Camp Freddie,

I haven't checked your figures, but I think you could knock a few grand off if you did some of the hourbuilding in US/Oz/S Africa. Plus you'd get some experience that you couldn't in the UK - if I never flew again, I wouldn't regret my mountain flying in California.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Whirly- I was kind of thinking of you as I wrote my brief earlier post...wondering if you'd agree or disagree. After rereading it a couple of times (which is tough, because I even bore myself, believe it or not) I realized that I may have come off as too negative and not as objective as I'd intended.

What I was trying to emphasize was that going from Ground Zero to working helicopter pilot is not a quick thing. Nor is it an easy thing. Or even a sure thing. And whatever the job prospects are today, they will surely change one way or the other by the time "mrgogetter" gets there. Better? Worse? Who knows. The helicopter industry is relatively tiny. And if the U.S. military burped a hundred or two-"qualified" pilots out into the market, the impact could be enormous.

Those of us who are in aviation tend to give overly optimistic answers when questioned by hopeful outsiders. I think that in a way we kind of delude ourselves about how wonderful aviation is. We enthusiastically urge them to "Come on in!" It's not that we're being deliberately deceptive, it's just that it's hard for us to be totally objective. We love to fly. We wouldn't have done it any other way. And we assume that everyone else will love it as much as we do.

"Sure man, it's great!" we say. "It beats *working* for a living any day! Get your ratings, there'll be PLENTY of jobs you can do!" And we might honestly believe that...until we stopped for a moment and thought about it. Then we might be inclined to add, "But it might take much longer than you expected...and there's absolutely zero money in it for the first five or ten years or so...oh yeah, and nobody'll hire you unless you have 1,000 hours."

So I was trying to walk a line between being overly pessimistic and overly optimistic. If I came down a little too hard on the negative side, I can't help that. As Watchoutbelow said, "It's a horrible thing, having to rely on luck." But in the end, that's what you have to do to make it in this industry. Maybe "mrgogetter" will go get lucky. Heck, I consider myself so. But maybe he won't. He needs to know what he's really in for.

There are plenty of people who'll blow smoke and tell you only the good side. Especially flight schools! I think it was hilico who pointed out in another thread that the first "P" in PPRuNe stands for professionals. Thus, the advice you get here come from guys who've all been around the block once or thrice. Don't take this the wrong way, but it's one thing to go out and get your ratings; it's another to take the plunge and carve a career out of this business.

But since you brought it up, Whirly...let me ask you: Where are you at right now and how long has it taken you to get there? It seems like you pursued it pretty aggressively, and you might be a good example of how quickly getting to CPL can be done.

[Whirlybird]

PPRUNE FAN,

Good post. You're right, we do spend lots of time telling people how wonderful helicopter flying is, without presenting the other side. If I felt you'd gone slightly too far the other way - and I did - maybe it's about time someone did that. I'm in a quandary every time some new student ask about commercial prospects - I need more students, but am I going to lie outright to him/her? So I try to present both sides...but do I try harder to tell them how great it is? Probably.

As for me, I'm not really typical. I was older than most people starting out (this lady never gives her age on PPRuNe, and isn't going to start now ) and I had the money from a reasonable inheritance. I have other work, which is comparatively secure (I hope!), and which I can do part time and fit around instructing. And I've never worried about the future that much, and despite getting older, haven't changed much in that respect - I always figure things will work out somehow. Oh, and I'm single, so I don't have to justify things to anyone. Those things all make a lot of difference.

As for the rate at which I did it, actually it could be done much faster, if you had the money. I didn't definitely decide to go commercial till after I got my PPL, which I did over nine months, mainly flying one day a week. I did my CPL ground exams over the space of about six months. I then wanted a summer of enjoying myself before I did the CPL flying, and I took it! I then dithered about for a month or two, spent a few days in Aberdeen checking out the North Sea before discovering I was a couple of months too late for any chance of that (interestingly, I was assured that before that they were so desperate that I probably wouldn't have been too old), before deciding to go for the 300 hours and FI rating...my original choice anyway, but I hadn't wanted to pay to get to 300 hours. But I decided I wanted some fun, so I'd have a couple of flying holidays abroad to get them. I did that over a year. I then took a few months off before doing the FI course, since I didn't have the money till I got another unexpected windfall.

So, I always carried on working, only did most of it when I felt like it, and was determined that it was going to be fun and relatively unpressured...bearing in mind I like a challenge and a certain amount of pressure anyway! For anyone who's interested, the timetable was something like this:

Nov 1999 - June 2000 PPL course
July 1999 - Sept 2000 hourbuilding as and when I felt like flying.
Jan 2000 - June 2000 - CPL ground exams, self-study plus two short crammer courses
Sept 2000 - Nov 2000 CPL flying course - with a break in the middle for all sorts of reasons
2002 - hourbuilding to get to 300 hours, including trips to California and Russia.
Jan 2003 - April 2003 Instructors course, again with a break for all sort of reasons.

Oh, and I've never done any course in the minimum number of hours yet!

Where am I at now? Instructing about a day a week, though even that has died over the holiday period. Hoping for more, concerned that I may not even have that much. Trying other schools, but refusing to relocate. Loving it, but very relieved that I don't have to live off it. Pleased that I got where I wanted to relatively painlessly (only relatively!), and despite lots of people thinking I wouldn't make it. Fairly broke, but no debts. Not typical, as I said at the beginning.

charlie s charlie,
I know some who've struggled, with part time work, having to find their own students, etc. I wouldn't be likely to run into the ones who don't have work at all, so I don't know. And I wonder if they read Rotorheads. Generally the 100 hours is no problem; it's getting the 25 solo supervisions. It means you need your own students or an understanding school. And some FIs only get trial lessons in the beginning. So it's not as easy as it sounds.

[gnow]

Forget about the fun in helicopter flying. I have neen flying helis for 27 years with 15000hrs but I get paid just like a junior 737 capt with my national airline.I should have opted for the Airlines when I had the offer and chance 17 years ago and I am still regreting my decision. But then 17 years ago heli pilots get more than fixed wing counterparts in my area.Go fly fixed wing for a living and fly helis for sport or part time.Good Luck!

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Whirly-

You see, you are typical in that there is *no* "typical." Nobody can say that it'll take "this" long or that you'll spend "that" amount of money. There are just too many variables.

And as you've seen, sometimes life interferes with our plans! We may want to do something a certain way in a certain time frame. ...And then the flight school goes out of business. Or a parent dies...or some other life emergency crops up that we hadn't counted on. Damn the capriciousness of nature!

I just read something...wish I could remember where I saw it or who was speaking. I think it was the current president of the HAI, or somebody noteworthy like that. Maybe it wasn't even a helicopter guy. Anyway, this guy said that he often gets asked by non-pilots if they should become commercial (helicopter) pilots. He always answers, "No." His reasoning is that if they are that easily dissuaded, they probably shouldn't be in the business anyway. The ones who don't take "no" for an answer are the ones who will ultimately succeed. Strange thinking, and I'm not entirely sure I agree with his tactic, but what the hey...he's probably right.

But Whirly, good on ya for sticking with it! In the end, that's what it's all about...following a dream and just not giving up.

[rotornut]

Class 4 Instructor Rating

Does anyone know if it's possible to get an instructing job in Canada with just a Class 4 rating and the minimum number of hours - 250 PIC? It seems 1000 hours is the minimum for any chopper job in this country.

[The Nr Fairy]

I suppose my 2 penn'orth may be of some use !

I wanted to fly helicopters for the RAF - so a 15 year ofl telling that to his careers officer as school got short shrift, then the RAF careers officer said "Don't tell them that, say you want to fly fast jets then get streamed off "

Long story snipped, I got my PPL in 1989 and hour-built to get to the 140 or so hours purely to go to Bristows for the sponsorship. I got an interview but no job, so carried on in IT. F/w commercial flying got nowhere, so I was resigned to private f/w flying.

Until I went to Oz for work on year, and an Oz PPL(H) was viable. So I did that, then converted it on my return to the UK. Then I found out about the UK CAA exam date cut-off, so did the exams in July and November 2000.

Hour building in 2002 in California, then the modular course at the end of 2002, so an ink-wet CPL(H). R44 rating, taken after some thought, which resulted in 0.7 hours total since doing it for various reasons. Next week sees me at Alan Mann for the 206 factory course, and I may have both R44 and B206 work line up for 2004.

My plan is to get to 300 hours to do the FI course, with the requisite number of hours to instruct on R22, R44 and B206 straight off, sometime in 2005, maybe early 2006.

Like I say, that's the plan. I have funded this through redundancy settlements and IT salary (say no more) until the end of the course next week. Then it's back to saving for the course and to cover a week or 2 unpaid leave to do the FI course itself in one block.

If it goes to plan I'll be 40 when I get the FI, but a) some one else will be paying for my flying, and b) I've the option to find more CPL work if needed.

Some things I've found useful:

• Make sure, if you have a partner, that they're on board and fully supportive - it makes life so much easier
• Age isn't a disqualifier in my case since I'm not planning to go NS - if your plans don't call for that, take your time
• Ring fence money specifically for flying, and keeping current as far as your flying organisation is concerned in lean times

Whatever you do - it's your decision, if you're happy with it then go for it and make sure you enjoy it.

[RDRickster]

The Nr Fairy said it well...

My perspective (from the U.S.) is slightly different, but I agree with The Nr Fairy on this... don't quit your day job. Since my background is somewhat similar to his, I'll give you some additional things to consider. After all, you probably have mortgage, family, child education fund, and other responsibilities.

I've been working with information systems, as well. In my opinion, having a realiable job is a little more important when changing careers. (Not to mention another profession to fall back on is nice). Since you already have a work history (I presume) your current income gives you many more options than those who are just starting out with no financial resources, credit, or budget maturity.

I took out a small loan for helicopter training because... well... what could be cooler than becoming a helicopter pilot? I didn't want to be 70 years old rocking on the porch and say, "I always wished I had done that." So, I flew part-time (2-3 times a week) for my Private Pilot's License and then paid my loan off early (in one year).

My advise is to fly 2-3 times a week and knock out your PPL. Then, you can gradually fly to slowly build hours while you retain a job that pays slightly better than entry helicopter pilot positions. Besides, you will need 1500-2000 hours of flight time before you can get a good pilot position that will allow you to learn on advanced aircraft. A small loan ($12K - $14K) for your PPL might be decent, just don't drag it out (pay it off early if you can).

Once you have your PPL, then you can save up some cash and continue training. In all cases, I would keep your day job (until your training is complete). Never let anyone tell you it can't be done... especially if you have a dream. However, this method gives you the best of both worlds because you can fly and still put food on the table. It will take longer, but if you still want to do this after it's over... then you just might be crazy enough to be a professional helicopter pilot.

Me? I waiting for my local school to get their Part 141 approval so I can use my G.I. Bill for CFII training (Veteran's Administration requirement). I'm not about to piss $22,500 of free money down the tube. So, I only fly 1-2 times a month... I continue to learn from others on this forum... and I read a lot about helicopters in the meantime. Still keeping the dream alive at the age of 33!!!

[rotornut]

Instant job!

I heard about an interesting situation here in Ontario going back about 30 + years. Niagara Helicopters used to have a RW school as part of their operation at Niagara Falls. At the end of one of their commercial courses (100 hours) a recruiter came up from the
States. In fact he was from the U.S. Army. This guy offered a deal that was hard to refuse - join the army and become a Huey pilot at their expense. In addition, you became a warrant officer and got to go to exotic places - like Vietnam, for instance. In any case I heard most of the new pilots joined up but I never heard anything more. Those were the days...

[mrgogetter]

Thanks for all the feedback guys n gals, I am still determined to gor for it. I don't wanna be on my death-bed one and say what if.

So just to clarify then, once I do hold my UK ppl(H) I will be able to go the states and build hours etc, possibly even get a couple of addional ratings???

Also, everyone say its mega bucks for your IR in the uk, how much would it be in the states???

thanks in advance again

[IHL]

mrgogetter:

I don't think you're too old but if you want to do it I wouldn't wait much longer.

The older you get the more difficult it becomes. I'm over 40 and when I transition to a new type it takes alot longer[for me] to memorize the numbers than it did when I was in my 20s and 30s.

Like the NIKE commercial "just do it" !

[WLM]

Do not let your age cloud your heart and soul. We only have one life (well I sometime wonder.....)
When I was 29, I got told I was too old for plank driving, so opted for our wonderful fraternity. Did my PPL. It took me until 39 to actually managed to secure funds for a CPL and another 4 years of hangar rat work (Oz slang for a slave) stock mustering, and some good luck from nice people along the way (yes they do exist) etc. I even had to lease my own turbine machine to build myself some decent turbine hours (Broke......) So where does all this lead to? an average salary, a distant marriage with high phone bills, some loneliness.. But I would not trade my place in the sky for any other way of living. So do it, become a professional and enjoy the good of life. The bad can go to hell.

[Crashondeck]

MrGogetter,

Follow your heart, but take it like a Yorkie - a chunk at a time!

Don't worry about the IR. You only really need it for North Sea work. There are onshore IR pilots, but not many, and there is no market for a low time CPL with an IR onshore.

As far as I can gather, an American IR is worthless over here unless you are flying an American registered helo. To convert you have to start again from scratch (welcome to CAA logic!)

The time to start looking at an IR is when you have a CPL. You can then decide whether to do the IR or an instructors course. The only reason to do an IR course is if the NS operators are recruiting, and then it is questionable. I was lucky and my company paid for the IR.

As for age.... A number of people got NS jobs a couple of years ago and they were 40 ish.

Have fun

[ambidextrous]

Age Concern

Whilst sympathising with my colleagues trying to establish themselves in this industry, ambidextrous having a good few rings on his trunk and being recently laid off from Nigeria would like a few pointers as to where next to look, commuting deal preferably. Any help appreciated, check profile for clues as to prospects. Byeoh, Ambi

[Captain Klagaway]

Am I to old to fly ?

Hello from Australia.
I am going over to Canada to live within the next 5 months as my wife has been offered a job in Canada and I would like to continue my Commercial Helicopter flight training.

I have started my training in Australia an have 35 hours in a Robinson R22.
The job prospects here in Australia are slim to none, so I am having second thoughts about completing my CPLH anyway.
I am approaching 39 years of age, I am very passionate about becoming a Heli. Pilot and wondering if I am to old to be making a career change into this industry.
I know I have at least 25 years in the industry before retiring, but am I to old to be considering this as a career for me ?

How hard is it to get your first job in Canada ?
What sort of jobs are available to low houred pilots in Canada ?
Can anyone reccomend a good school in Canada ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another option is to complete my training in the USA.
My wife is being sent from Canada to Florida at the end of 2005, all though this sets me back another 2 years.
Any suggestions.

[Devil 49]

Why, you insolent pup! If you'll just come over here, I'll give you what for! Too old at 39!

I'm 54, and the youngest pilot (of 4) at my EMS base, and only slightly above the average for our program (18 pilots).
EMS'ers tend to be a little older, but we have the occasional pilot in their 30's.

NO, you're not too old. Being young, foolish, foot-loose and fancy-free are the rules in a nomadic profession, and you'd have time to do wild goose chases, if you were starting at 19 or so....
Being settled, mature and purposeful is always beneficial, no matter the extent of your years on this earth.

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

If you can pass the medical and have the quilifications you CAN FLY

I am 43 young by some just starting out and the rigs are talking to me so if you get the ratings you can do it.

word of advise though it is slow to get going i am still finding this out but the phone is ringing and i am getting time in the air paid for by some one else

Go for it if its what you want to do..
Sincerely

Bravo 99 (AJB)

[Simon10]

Bravo99 AJB - please don't take offence - but I am really having difficulties to understand what you are really saying in your posts.

No - English is not my native language, but still I manage to understand most of it. But your posts - oh no, God no - I just can't figure out what you mean.

No offence intended, you write interesting things, and I'm sure if I understood them - they would become ever more interesting.

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

No problem no offence taken. I will slow down when writing and double check before posting but as stated no offence taken and thanks fot the advice.

Sincerely

Bravo 99 (AJB)