Age Concern: Am I too old?
HeliFirst
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The question of not having a valid IR applies to even a well qualified Captain ex SuperPumas, Sk65 and Sa365 5,000Hrs+ Helicopters. . .Went off fixedwing flying (12 good years) but let IR/H lapse. . .Now no work availiable on the North Sea. . .Is this just ageism?? . .Think, no North Sea!!! A blessing in disguise
<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
<img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
A chardonnay pom <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
FWIW, an IR down here covers any type on your licence, annual renewals, and helicopter-wise seldom needed. Helicopter IFR is only just crawling out of the 1950's, and very few operators use it for real.
Old at 40? I'd better get back into my wheelchair....
(Edited for lousy grammar. End result isn't guaranteed to be any better))
[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>
FWIW, an IR down here covers any type on your licence, annual renewals, and helicopter-wise seldom needed. Helicopter IFR is only just crawling out of the 1950's, and very few operators use it for real.
Old at 40? I'd better get back into my wheelchair....
(Edited for lousy grammar. End result isn't guaranteed to be any better))
[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>
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Just thought I'd add my pennys worth. I've been looking to get work on the North Sea for some time now as previous pals have all left the green machine and walked straight into a job, IR payed for by the company. However at the moment it is taking the same road as the fixed wing world i.e. turn up fully equiped and the company will convert you to type, otherwise, no joy. This will probably change in the near future as there is apparently little planning, and just reacting to crew shortfalls.
Gies a job I can do that!
Gies a job I can do that!
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Short term supply and demand seems to play a major part in what the offshore operators are doing re: recruitment. It changes from week to week almost. The expression "knee jerking" springs to mind.
Before 11 Sept, there did seem to be a shortage and relatively low-time CPL(H)s were being recruited. The big problem was the IR, because since JAR-FCL came in, offshore operators needed to use IR holders even as co-pilots. Before that they took people on and did non-IR initial IFR training. The IR followed 12-18 months later when you had significant time on the type and IF. This JAR-FCL change created quite a good business for some FTOs who did IR courses. Many of these IR courses were paid for by the operators.
However, the operators got their fingers burnt because a number of pilots not only failed their initial IR tests, but were effectively told by the CAA training Inspectors doing the tests that these guys weren't even close to passing.
In this crazy business in which we try to earn a living, operators don't like psending money to train their pilots at all - but they were really "not pleased" to spend good money on "not training" new recruits.
Even if the situation eases up, I can see the operators wanting you to present yourself with an IR before they are at all interested - whether the initial salary will reflect the large additional investment remains to be seen.
Before 11 Sept, there did seem to be a shortage and relatively low-time CPL(H)s were being recruited. The big problem was the IR, because since JAR-FCL came in, offshore operators needed to use IR holders even as co-pilots. Before that they took people on and did non-IR initial IFR training. The IR followed 12-18 months later when you had significant time on the type and IF. This JAR-FCL change created quite a good business for some FTOs who did IR courses. Many of these IR courses were paid for by the operators.
However, the operators got their fingers burnt because a number of pilots not only failed their initial IR tests, but were effectively told by the CAA training Inspectors doing the tests that these guys weren't even close to passing.
In this crazy business in which we try to earn a living, operators don't like psending money to train their pilots at all - but they were really "not pleased" to spend good money on "not training" new recruits.
Even if the situation eases up, I can see the operators wanting you to present yourself with an IR before they are at all interested - whether the initial salary will reflect the large additional investment remains to be seen.
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Are Helicopter Pilots past it at age 58?
Do you believe, that as a helicopter pilot, you have no prospects of continuing your flying career once you reach 58 years of age? Furthermore, that from the age of 60 years you are not employable in any operational support role?
I ask this for the following reason. I am an experienced helicopter pilot with over 15,000 hours. This has been in single pilot and two crew operations and has covered onshore work as well as offshore work. I am a qualified instructor and an authorised CAA TRE/IRE.
Unfortunately, I suffered an accident that has meant that I have lost my licence on medical grounds. The long drawn out legal wheels are slowly grinding and the latest opt out from the Insurance company is with regards to my potential loss of earnings due to the accident. They are categorically stating that there is no employment for pilots over the age of 58 years of age and furthermore there is no prospect of employment past 60 even in a non-flying operational role.
Despite writing to numerous helicopter operators, providing them with my full CV, very few even bothered to reply to give an indication of my hypothetical employment prospects to counter the claims being made by the Insurance Company. It is a sorry state, that if as an industry, we are not able to support and look after our own, particularly in such unfortunate circumstances.
I therefore ask if anyone knows of a Helicopter Operator that once presented with my CV by my legal representative, would be prepared to comment on my hypothetical employment prospects covering the age 58 to 65. This should also show an indication of salary levels to show to this Insurance outfit that as a helicopter pilot you are not on the slag heap at age 58. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This is not just for the UK, but Worldwide. Please reply by Private Message. I hope that members of PPrune may now be able to help. Many thanks.
I ask this for the following reason. I am an experienced helicopter pilot with over 15,000 hours. This has been in single pilot and two crew operations and has covered onshore work as well as offshore work. I am a qualified instructor and an authorised CAA TRE/IRE.
Unfortunately, I suffered an accident that has meant that I have lost my licence on medical grounds. The long drawn out legal wheels are slowly grinding and the latest opt out from the Insurance company is with regards to my potential loss of earnings due to the accident. They are categorically stating that there is no employment for pilots over the age of 58 years of age and furthermore there is no prospect of employment past 60 even in a non-flying operational role.
Despite writing to numerous helicopter operators, providing them with my full CV, very few even bothered to reply to give an indication of my hypothetical employment prospects to counter the claims being made by the Insurance Company. It is a sorry state, that if as an industry, we are not able to support and look after our own, particularly in such unfortunate circumstances.
I therefore ask if anyone knows of a Helicopter Operator that once presented with my CV by my legal representative, would be prepared to comment on my hypothetical employment prospects covering the age 58 to 65. This should also show an indication of salary levels to show to this Insurance outfit that as a helicopter pilot you are not on the slag heap at age 58. Any help would be greatly appreciated. This is not just for the UK, but Worldwide. Please reply by Private Message. I hope that members of PPrune may now be able to help. Many thanks.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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Unemployable at the age of 58?, sh it I hope not....... I might get to be that old one day. Sad state of affairs when the industry cant give a hand to those that developed and supported the bloody thing before it was called an indutry........ get off ya fat lazy asses you blokes and support a fellow pilot against the bastards that really run the bleeding industry. you might all get to be that old one day , god willing, and require the same support.
Chin up old mate, some one out there must be able to help ya.
Chin up old mate, some one out there must be able to help ya.
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Canadin Helicopters Intnl. Had several guys at or over the age of 58. I believe that they may even have a couple of pilots over age 60, but the over 60 guys are not allowed to hold a position of command.
P.S. It has been several years since I have had any contact with CHI so the conditions may have changed.
P.S. It has been several years since I have had any contact with CHI so the conditions may have changed.
Gatvol
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Finally a topic which, as an old fart, I fit right in (60 next month). I have been flying for over 33 years and enjoy the hell out of it. I also get paid and see the world on someone elses dime. BUT I dont have to depend on this for income. I retired from another field. That required prior planning.
I talk to all of the youngsters I fly with and press the point that they do not want to have to fly until they die. I use as an example a guy I met a few years ago while working in Alaska. he was my age and had been flying about the same amount of years, albeit he was doing it for a living wheras I had been doing it as a second income. He had three times as much hours as I did, but no life. I really felt sorry for the guy. He explained that he had just joined the company he was with and even though he had been flying for years he was at the bottom again and doing all the jobs the others didnt want. He also said he had nothing at the other end (retirement) so he had no choice.
Another item I use when looking for work is to opt for part time or seasonal work that DOES NOT compete with other Pilots who need full time employment for their main income. It makes conditions more livable as I am not a threat to someones job. Employers seem to like that also as it saves them money and usually costs them no benefits.
IF you want to continue, get additional ratings, particularly CFI, CFII. At least you can get a job as a ground instructor if your medical goes south. I also encourage folks to continue and get a College Degree to fall back on. MOST important is to get a job WITH some kind of retirement plan and benefits. Not easy to find in the helicopter industry unless you get a Government job or STAY with a major player. The grass is not always greener and a lot of folks have employment history that requires numerous pages.
Also if you look around just a bit, you will find some very remedial work that pays better than "Helicopter Pilot". That should be some indication of how much value is placed on a Pilot. With experience in flying, aircraft sales or some form of management if one has an education. It certainly pays better.
I dont know how much longer I will continue, but Im having fun doing tours now, meeting a lot of folks and seeing some beautiful places. I can say no anytime and still get paid for waking up in the morning. Im sure that at my age, if I dont stay current it will be the end of my career. I encourage folks to look around and keep a backup plan.
I talk to all of the youngsters I fly with and press the point that they do not want to have to fly until they die. I use as an example a guy I met a few years ago while working in Alaska. he was my age and had been flying about the same amount of years, albeit he was doing it for a living wheras I had been doing it as a second income. He had three times as much hours as I did, but no life. I really felt sorry for the guy. He explained that he had just joined the company he was with and even though he had been flying for years he was at the bottom again and doing all the jobs the others didnt want. He also said he had nothing at the other end (retirement) so he had no choice.
Another item I use when looking for work is to opt for part time or seasonal work that DOES NOT compete with other Pilots who need full time employment for their main income. It makes conditions more livable as I am not a threat to someones job. Employers seem to like that also as it saves them money and usually costs them no benefits.
IF you want to continue, get additional ratings, particularly CFI, CFII. At least you can get a job as a ground instructor if your medical goes south. I also encourage folks to continue and get a College Degree to fall back on. MOST important is to get a job WITH some kind of retirement plan and benefits. Not easy to find in the helicopter industry unless you get a Government job or STAY with a major player. The grass is not always greener and a lot of folks have employment history that requires numerous pages.
Also if you look around just a bit, you will find some very remedial work that pays better than "Helicopter Pilot". That should be some indication of how much value is placed on a Pilot. With experience in flying, aircraft sales or some form of management if one has an education. It certainly pays better.
I dont know how much longer I will continue, but Im having fun doing tours now, meeting a lot of folks and seeing some beautiful places. I can say no anytime and still get paid for waking up in the morning. Im sure that at my age, if I dont stay current it will be the end of my career. I encourage folks to look around and keep a backup plan.
Last edited by B Sousa; 24th Mar 2003 at 15:24.
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Hey Toppled,
I'm with the wiz, it's either helicopters or a rewarding career as a Wal-Mart greeter.
Have you or your legal representative contacted the HAI? If I'm not mistaken, several years ago, someone from the association was making noise about age but I don't recall what came of it - if anything. Beyond that they keep all sorts of stats on this, that and the other, maybe age is in there too (again, maybe not, but it's worth a shot).
Good luck.
I'm with the wiz, it's either helicopters or a rewarding career as a Wal-Mart greeter.
Have you or your legal representative contacted the HAI? If I'm not mistaken, several years ago, someone from the association was making noise about age but I don't recall what came of it - if anything. Beyond that they keep all sorts of stats on this, that and the other, maybe age is in there too (again, maybe not, but it's worth a shot).
Good luck.
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Toppled Gyro,
I'm very sorry to hear this is happening to you, I only want to say that I although I personally don't expect to be flying helicopters for a living at 58, I think one should have the option to do so if you want to.
Experience is much more valuable than quicker reflexes, perfect eyesight or hearing.
I have had the pleasure and good fortune to fly with lots of the older guys and, learning from them has been like going to the "Harvard" of Helicopter Pilot's and getting paid for it.
Lately I have seen that although younger pilots (such as myself) may have things such as quicker reflexes and better eyesight, older pilots know instinctively what to watch out for and when to to be extra cautious, they don't leave anything to chance, I think they are safer.
To me, flying is 25% manipulating the controls and 75% good judgment, decision making, and who else to do this than someone with experience, its dumb to phase out those with experience just because they have reached a certain age.
I'm very sorry to hear this is happening to you, I only want to say that I although I personally don't expect to be flying helicopters for a living at 58, I think one should have the option to do so if you want to.
Experience is much more valuable than quicker reflexes, perfect eyesight or hearing.
I have had the pleasure and good fortune to fly with lots of the older guys and, learning from them has been like going to the "Harvard" of Helicopter Pilot's and getting paid for it.
Lately I have seen that although younger pilots (such as myself) may have things such as quicker reflexes and better eyesight, older pilots know instinctively what to watch out for and when to to be extra cautious, they don't leave anything to chance, I think they are safer.
To me, flying is 25% manipulating the controls and 75% good judgment, decision making, and who else to do this than someone with experience, its dumb to phase out those with experience just because they have reached a certain age.
Last edited by BlenderPilot; 24th Mar 2003 at 23:56.
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I would like to thank the few of you that kindly contacted me with information and details of post age 58 employment. I will now pursue these various areas and try and obtain specific details to support my on-going legal battle.
I must say that I do find it disappointing that the various helicopter operators contacted in the past seem very reluctant to provide any information in support of a pilot against an insurance organisation trying to opt out of their obligations. Surely, it is no skin off their noses, so why don't they?
I must say that I do find it disappointing that the various helicopter operators contacted in the past seem very reluctant to provide any information in support of a pilot against an insurance organisation trying to opt out of their obligations. Surely, it is no skin off their noses, so why don't they?
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Toppled Gyro
does the insurance company ignor your option of self employement status, if not you are certainly able to instruct/examine or either in the air (medicle permiting) or on a sim.
The late and Great Bill barrell tought me to instruct at age 70+ (him not me!!) and I can see no reason why anyone else cannot do the same.
Are you able to publish the insurance company in question, we may be able to lobby BALPA if this company underwrites our insurance to get a difinitive answer as to what age they think we expire!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck
does the insurance company ignor your option of self employement status, if not you are certainly able to instruct/examine or either in the air (medicle permiting) or on a sim.
The late and Great Bill barrell tought me to instruct at age 70+ (him not me!!) and I can see no reason why anyone else cannot do the same.
Are you able to publish the insurance company in question, we may be able to lobby BALPA if this company underwrites our insurance to get a difinitive answer as to what age they think we expire!!!!!!!!!!
Good luck
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Gee, after 42 years flying helicopters and approaching 66 this year, I hope I'm not too old as I still fly regularly for 2 companies!! Come to think of it, a few of the crews did think I was too old!!
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If you can pass your base checks and medicals every six months then professionally you are only limited by the ANO of the country you're working in. Witness my friend Nigel Osborn (above) and myself and quite a few others out there. WELL past 60... Your insurance company are of course lying to you as usual.
However as you rightly say, once you've passed the age of late 50's it's not easy to get full-time work; but contracting can be rewarding and more flexible for those with other things to do in their lives. And frankly if you still rely totally on flying to make a living at this age then consider this:
FACT no.1: Helicopters fulfil a need; they don't really provide much of a financial return on their operations and therefore don't usually attract the most capable senior managers.
FACT no.2: Helicopter companies tend to employ large capital assets and have high cash flows. This makes them "interesting" to the sharks of the business world.
FACT no.3: Helicopter pilots and engineers are therefore working in an unstable industry and must build up some form of second financial interest to safeguard their future out of the money they earn while they are flying.
Recommendation: NEVER trust your employer to have your best interests at heart. ALWAYS have a fallback plan (same as in the cockpit or the hangar).
Sorry if this is a downer but most of us are in the helicopter business because we like it; that does not make it good for our financial health.
So I suggest that you use your training qualifications and go contracting wherever you can in the world if you MUST still fly; if you have the option it's probably better to do something pre-planned or different.
Whatever you decide, good luck!
However as you rightly say, once you've passed the age of late 50's it's not easy to get full-time work; but contracting can be rewarding and more flexible for those with other things to do in their lives. And frankly if you still rely totally on flying to make a living at this age then consider this:
FACT no.1: Helicopters fulfil a need; they don't really provide much of a financial return on their operations and therefore don't usually attract the most capable senior managers.
FACT no.2: Helicopter companies tend to employ large capital assets and have high cash flows. This makes them "interesting" to the sharks of the business world.
FACT no.3: Helicopter pilots and engineers are therefore working in an unstable industry and must build up some form of second financial interest to safeguard their future out of the money they earn while they are flying.
Recommendation: NEVER trust your employer to have your best interests at heart. ALWAYS have a fallback plan (same as in the cockpit or the hangar).
Sorry if this is a downer but most of us are in the helicopter business because we like it; that does not make it good for our financial health.
So I suggest that you use your training qualifications and go contracting wherever you can in the world if you MUST still fly; if you have the option it's probably better to do something pre-planned or different.
Whatever you decide, good luck!
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I am still flying public transport in UK at 59 and intend to go to the end at 65 (2 pilot after 60 of course). Your insurance company does not want to fork out and are wrong.
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To IMABELL
Many thanks for your of help. I have tried to contact you by email as your website does not appear to be running. Could you please contact me by Private Message and I will forward details to you if you are able and prepared to help. Thanks.
TG,
The link is slightly misspelt, try Blue Tongue Helicopters .
Graeme,
You need to add an "i" to your link for it to work. 56, eh, getting on a bit
The link is slightly misspelt, try Blue Tongue Helicopters .
Graeme,
You need to add an "i" to your link for it to work. 56, eh, getting on a bit
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Toppled Gyro
The various states of ICAO can vary certain rules to suit local influences.................here in Australia the 60 old year rule was challenged and discarded years ago....hence old fella's like Nigel are still seen in the sky today.
We have a number of active COMMAND pilots in their late 60's...including a very healthy Government Inspector.
There are a few requirements when these Captains are flying Charter type operations.....their first Officer must be below 60 years old, and of course there is more demanding Class One medicals.......
But apart from that, you can fly until you want to retire.
We have a number of active COMMAND pilots in their late 60's...including a very healthy Government Inspector.
There are a few requirements when these Captains are flying Charter type operations.....their first Officer must be below 60 years old, and of course there is more demanding Class One medicals.......
But apart from that, you can fly until you want to retire.
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Flying past 58.
Hell, the age thing should be unrelated to the years but health.
I'm 70, still instructing three/four hours a day and love it. I do display work at the summer airshows and took a world freestyle championship just 10 years a go and was placed again last year. I still do film work and look forward to every flying day.
Why the difference. I choose to be self employed and don't have to ask myself if I'm too old. My clients like my instruction and teaching approach. So if nobody wants you at 58, just start up as a freelance instructor and possibly commercial.
Best of luck and get yourself untoppled soon.
Rotor Rooter.
I'm 70, still instructing three/four hours a day and love it. I do display work at the summer airshows and took a world freestyle championship just 10 years a go and was placed again last year. I still do film work and look forward to every flying day.
Why the difference. I choose to be self employed and don't have to ask myself if I'm too old. My clients like my instruction and teaching approach. So if nobody wants you at 58, just start up as a freelance instructor and possibly commercial.
Best of luck and get yourself untoppled soon.
Rotor Rooter.