Helicopter instruction: Cost etc
Guest
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I would like to pose a question to anyone working (or who has worked) in a flighth school employing instructors with relatively few hours. Canadian regulations require a lot more time prior to obtaining the instructor rating and so my experiences here don't really apply.
What I would like to know, is how a CFI / operator attracts and, more importantly, keeps these instructors. Are there ways to encourage them to stick around after they have the first burst of hours or is it a given that they will leave as soon as possible?
Any input would be much appreciated.
Also, anyone who has experience operating Bell 47 or Schweizer trainers, how have you found their utility and cost versus the R22.
What I would like to know, is how a CFI / operator attracts and, more importantly, keeps these instructors. Are there ways to encourage them to stick around after they have the first burst of hours or is it a given that they will leave as soon as possible?
Any input would be much appreciated.
Also, anyone who has experience operating Bell 47 or Schweizer trainers, how have you found their utility and cost versus the R22.
Guest
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HeloTeacher
I operate 300C's with a school that operates R22. All the students who have tried both have always gone with the 300.The most common Reasons stated being
a) It is bigger and more comfortable inside
b) It is more forgiving and easier to fly
c) There is always plenty of power in hand
d) Students never hear anything bad about 300's ie mast bumping and more R22's seem to crash through pilot error ( before everyone jumps down my throat remember perception is very powerful )
All the above is dispite the price being 10% more expensive. However I generally find that a student learns quicker in the 300 so actually from his point of view it is the same price.
As for relibility and cost I would have to say they are about the same ( based on my 300's flying about 400 / 500 hrs a year )
300 uses 3 gal more fuel but does not have a massively expensive rebuild every 2200 hrs or 10 years If you actually factor this in it makes a big difference to your DOC's
If you really want to go cheap pick up a 269B ( £ 35000 ) they have huge lives on components and the purchase cost is very small and like the 300 cheap to insure against an R22 ( this should tell you something about the R22 as a trainer, insurance companies hate paying out, so stuff the R22 with much higher premiums )
Hope this helps, for more info e mail me and I will provide you with a phone number for a chat as my typing is too slow
Have a safe one this year everyone
I operate 300C's with a school that operates R22. All the students who have tried both have always gone with the 300.The most common Reasons stated being
a) It is bigger and more comfortable inside
b) It is more forgiving and easier to fly
c) There is always plenty of power in hand
d) Students never hear anything bad about 300's ie mast bumping and more R22's seem to crash through pilot error ( before everyone jumps down my throat remember perception is very powerful )
All the above is dispite the price being 10% more expensive. However I generally find that a student learns quicker in the 300 so actually from his point of view it is the same price.
As for relibility and cost I would have to say they are about the same ( based on my 300's flying about 400 / 500 hrs a year )
300 uses 3 gal more fuel but does not have a massively expensive rebuild every 2200 hrs or 10 years If you actually factor this in it makes a big difference to your DOC's
If you really want to go cheap pick up a 269B ( £ 35000 ) they have huge lives on components and the purchase cost is very small and like the 300 cheap to insure against an R22 ( this should tell you something about the R22 as a trainer, insurance companies hate paying out, so stuff the R22 with much higher premiums )
Hope this helps, for more info e mail me and I will provide you with a phone number for a chat as my typing is too slow
Have a safe one this year everyone
Guest
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MONEY!!
That's what keeps a good instructor.
Unfortunately, in this industry, instructors are still thought of as being at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to respect/money.
I worked as an instructor for several years and loved it (still do). The problem is; after spending upwards of $40000 USD (more in the UK), everyone eventually wants some return on their investment. I think we all love flying and wouldn't want to do anything else, but we have to have a life/make a living as well.
During my time as an instructor, I saw quite a few guys come and go. Most, get themselves a thousand hours or so, and go fly a bigger, turbine engined machine, for more cash, less working hours and more respect. If you want to keep an instructor, give them all three.
An instructor that has been with a company for a long time, will have lots of contacts, respect from any flight examiners, and will know how to attract and deal with new students/customers. They will have extensive knowledge of the local area for any photo jobs you get in, and your insurance rates should be a lot less with high time, proven instructors.
I doubt things will change, but all those reasons and many more are why instructors leave as soon as possible.
Without instructors there would be no pilots.
I hear the Schweizer 300 CB, has recently completed 100 thousand hours without a single fatality. That' pretty impressive considering it's the same bunch of people that fly the R22.
Happy New Year all.
Fly safe.
That's what keeps a good instructor.
Unfortunately, in this industry, instructors are still thought of as being at the bottom of the food chain when it comes to respect/money.
I worked as an instructor for several years and loved it (still do). The problem is; after spending upwards of $40000 USD (more in the UK), everyone eventually wants some return on their investment. I think we all love flying and wouldn't want to do anything else, but we have to have a life/make a living as well.
During my time as an instructor, I saw quite a few guys come and go. Most, get themselves a thousand hours or so, and go fly a bigger, turbine engined machine, for more cash, less working hours and more respect. If you want to keep an instructor, give them all three.
An instructor that has been with a company for a long time, will have lots of contacts, respect from any flight examiners, and will know how to attract and deal with new students/customers. They will have extensive knowledge of the local area for any photo jobs you get in, and your insurance rates should be a lot less with high time, proven instructors.
I doubt things will change, but all those reasons and many more are why instructors leave as soon as possible.
Without instructors there would be no pilots.
I hear the Schweizer 300 CB, has recently completed 100 thousand hours without a single fatality. That' pretty impressive considering it's the same bunch of people that fly the R22.
Happy New Year all.
Fly safe.
Guest
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Hughes500, where do you operate, i'm trying to get some comparisons. Thanks for the reply about the 300, I have little experience with them.
Fishboy, please let me know what country you are working in, and would you be willing to let me know how much is low? In Canada the reg's are restrictive enough that instructors on helos do MUCH better than fixed wing guys, but there are very few of us around.
I too enjoyed instructing, and have been approached a couple times now to run a school but am researching it first.
Fishboy, please let me know what country you are working in, and would you be willing to let me know how much is low? In Canada the reg's are restrictive enough that instructors on helos do MUCH better than fixed wing guys, but there are very few of us around.
I too enjoyed instructing, and have been approached a couple times now to run a school but am researching it first.
Guest
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the school that I am familiar with in the states (northwest) starts low time instructors in the low teens per hour (USD). It's basically part time work as well, when you figure in scheduling problems and weather cancellations. You can do about as well bussing tables at a busy restaurant.
Guest
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I did all my instructing in the USA, I'm in the UK at the moment. I started as a low time 200 hour instructor and saw one or two come and go, from 160 hours. We trained a few people from scratch to CFI and they stayed for a while. Only a few stay much longer than 1000 hours, Usually for personal reasons, definitely not financial. I stayed because I couldn't get a work permit for anything else. I loved it even though I was working at least six days a week from as early as 6 in the morning to 11 at night for around $600 a week. I had it good and I had been doing it for 3 years at that time.
Guest
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I'm told by local operators here I have talked to, that I can be picked up for non-paid, supplemental flying by several outfits around here when I have the COMM and 150+ hours. My CFI did a few jobs for some of them when he was at the same place I was time wise, so for me it's get time, get time, get time.
As it is when I bag the Comm I'll start CFI, hopefully when I have the time built up, I'll then take on some odds and end things to grab more time as I progress. the operators that do this know that we might leave when enought time is gained to pursue other objectives, but it's offset by the continuous stream of other people coming in, like me.
As it is when I bag the Comm I'll start CFI, hopefully when I have the time built up, I'll then take on some odds and end things to grab more time as I progress. the operators that do this know that we might leave when enought time is gained to pursue other objectives, but it's offset by the continuous stream of other people coming in, like me.
Guest
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OK, here's the deal, for arguments sake, let's say I am advertising for a helicopter instructor, not asking for high time, just the rating. What would you guys consider to be a fair wage. Not what you necessarily see these days, but what you think is right.
Guest
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HeloTeacher, here's a "downunder perspective", the training outfit where I work operates 2 300C's and a 300CB, on mostly training work with some other jobs here and there.As instructors we are paid on an hourly rate for flying only, as you probably know; this can mean an 8 till late day but with no flying going on, there's no money coming in despite the machines turning all day.
My ideal (and that of all the instructors down here nationwide), would be to at least have a respectable retainer each week, $200 would be fine, and even better than that would be to have a salary that ensures the rent gets paid etc...
This would be at least a recognition of the fact that an instructor does far more than just fly with students, ie:answering questions, managing training, teaching theory classes...
Note:
An instructor will be paid on the same conditions no matter what their experience within the organisation or on type, as a result; they turnover at least every 12 to 18 months or 1000 to 1500 hrs, whichever comes first...regardless of liking the job or not.
What is the lot of an instructor like elsewhere?
[This message has been edited by AdvancingBlade (edited 06 January 2001).]
[This message has been edited by AdvancingBlade (edited 06 January 2001).]
My ideal (and that of all the instructors down here nationwide), would be to at least have a respectable retainer each week, $200 would be fine, and even better than that would be to have a salary that ensures the rent gets paid etc...
This would be at least a recognition of the fact that an instructor does far more than just fly with students, ie:answering questions, managing training, teaching theory classes...
Note:
An instructor will be paid on the same conditions no matter what their experience within the organisation or on type, as a result; they turnover at least every 12 to 18 months or 1000 to 1500 hrs, whichever comes first...regardless of liking the job or not.
What is the lot of an instructor like elsewhere?
[This message has been edited by AdvancingBlade (edited 06 January 2001).]
[This message has been edited by AdvancingBlade (edited 06 January 2001).]
Guest
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I was most recently making $60 / hr revenue hours only, no base pay. My co-worker was making $2500 / month plus $20 / hr. How much we flew determined whether he or I had the better month. Both of us were from an operational background (VFR + IFR) and enjoyed the job.
Canada seems to be unique in its instructor rating requirements so I think I may be forced into a unique solution.
Canada seems to be unique in its instructor rating requirements so I think I may be forced into a unique solution.
Guest
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SPS, I agree totally, I enjoy the job also, and it has proven to be invaluable experience to work with a variety of people and to see them progress throughout their training.
It has always struck me as strange though that some of the least experienced in the business have the priviledge of training the next generation of pilots and are rewarded the least for their efforts.
As a mater of interest, we are paid on revenue hours only @ $30/Hour, what's the average in the northern climes?...
Again, I love the job, but I cant pay the bills with love...
It has always struck me as strange though that some of the least experienced in the business have the priviledge of training the next generation of pilots and are rewarded the least for their efforts.
As a mater of interest, we are paid on revenue hours only @ $30/Hour, what's the average in the northern climes?...
Again, I love the job, but I cant pay the bills with love...
Guest
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All the training at the moment is in Schweizer/Hughs 300's (2xC, 1xCB), there is some turbine going in an H500, but that is the bosses toy exclusively...
On a good week each instructor would do about 10 hrs and by the end of the month do between 40-50 hrs, sometimes more, sometimes alot less.As far as the billing of students goes, they are charged for the machine only, briefings and "Q&A" time is not included.
We are subcontractors to a university based course also; but that's a whole different story.Flight training for tertiary institutions is becoming the norm in this neck of the woods I think; with flight training operators clambering for govt money and student loans, this means steady numbers throughout the year and access to more teaching resources, but a huge headache when dealing with a large buracracy.
What are requirements for instructors in Canada?...in terms of licences, experience, endorsements...?
On a good week each instructor would do about 10 hrs and by the end of the month do between 40-50 hrs, sometimes more, sometimes alot less.As far as the billing of students goes, they are charged for the machine only, briefings and "Q&A" time is not included.
We are subcontractors to a university based course also; but that's a whole different story.Flight training for tertiary institutions is becoming the norm in this neck of the woods I think; with flight training operators clambering for govt money and student loans, this means steady numbers throughout the year and access to more teaching resources, but a huge headache when dealing with a large buracracy.
What are requirements for instructors in Canada?...in terms of licences, experience, endorsements...?
Guest
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To obtain the instructor rating (class IV) in Canada requires:
CPL-H and
w/ 250 hrs PIC in helos
w/ instructor course
-30 hours dual
-40 hrs ground instruction
Hope I got all the numbers right, I'm going from memory on a couple, but the main point is the 250 PIC req'd, so it cannot be obtainined immediately after the commercial without paying for an additional 200 hours-ish out of pocket. Most people don't have an extra $70K for the PIC plus $10K for the rating.
CPL-H and
w/ 250 hrs PIC in helos
w/ instructor course
-30 hours dual
-40 hrs ground instruction
Hope I got all the numbers right, I'm going from memory on a couple, but the main point is the 250 PIC req'd, so it cannot be obtainined immediately after the commercial without paying for an additional 200 hours-ish out of pocket. Most people don't have an extra $70K for the PIC plus $10K for the rating.
Guest
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Well I was just offered employment with the University of North Dakota on Monday as a Helicopter Flight Instructor, for there Rotorcraft Division. They have 300 C/B's and 206 B-3. I had applied back in August, they Interviewed me in December and offered me the job. They are starting me at $ 30,000.00 per year with some extras. I have both Airplane and Helicopter ratings on my Flight Instructors along with Instrument Instructor for both. Being dual rated most likly put me on top. Since I don't have a College Degree. I'm also an MEI too. I think my total time and my total time in Helicopters and total Instrument and Multiengine time,and my total time as a flight Instructor counted for a lot since I lack college. I have recived four more offers since Monday. One for a Beech 1900 C and Metro 3's a BH-206 135 charter job, Twin Otter in LV, another BH-206 job in AZ, and a maybe offer to fly an AS-355 Twin Star. Out side of the Twin Star job, the pay scale is pretty much the same with in 1,000 to 2,500 dollars difference. I currenly fly part time for a TV station doing ENG. So it most likly come down for me as to were I want to live. Its not even Fire season yet.
[This message has been edited by George Semel (edited 11 January 2001).]
[This message has been edited by George Semel (edited 11 January 2001).]
Guest
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I was flying 50-70 hours a month myself, depended a lot on weather.
50 was nice.
70 was a bag-drive and not much fun.
Some days I miss sliding sideways down the runway at 30 kts wondering how to explain what went wrong and trying not to roll-over, all at the same time. And some days I don't :-)
50 was nice.
70 was a bag-drive and not much fun.
Some days I miss sliding sideways down the runway at 30 kts wondering how to explain what went wrong and trying not to roll-over, all at the same time. And some days I don't :-)
Guest
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Your thread "Low Time Instructors" is very pertinent in NZ, the requirements for a C cat instructor are as follows:
CPL(H)...(150hrs)
PinC 150hrs
Instructor training 25hrs
Instructional Techniques course
The IT course is required to be run by a teacher not a flight instructor and deals with the delivery of a lesson ie: whiteboard, OHP's, teaching aids etc...
There is no formalised requirement for ground instruction time but a candidate must be able to deliver any briefing that the testing officer specifies, (there are about 30 promulgated briefings).
There is definitely not the luxury of being able to pick and choose work down here even for a very experienced driver!...
So far I havent found any major advantage in having fixed wing and helo instructor ratings as most operators are one or the other.
Any benefit in having an FAA ATPL as opposed to multi I/F in the US or Canada?...
CPL(H)...(150hrs)
PinC 150hrs
Instructor training 25hrs
Instructional Techniques course
The IT course is required to be run by a teacher not a flight instructor and deals with the delivery of a lesson ie: whiteboard, OHP's, teaching aids etc...
There is no formalised requirement for ground instruction time but a candidate must be able to deliver any briefing that the testing officer specifies, (there are about 30 promulgated briefings).
There is definitely not the luxury of being able to pick and choose work down here even for a very experienced driver!...
So far I havent found any major advantage in having fixed wing and helo instructor ratings as most operators are one or the other.
Any benefit in having an FAA ATPL as opposed to multi I/F in the US or Canada?...
Guest
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In the US its just Airline Transport Pilot Certificate. I got one with Single and Multiengine class ratings on it. If you are going to fly for a Commuter or Regional Airline along with the Majors and for any seat in a jet, yep its a must have. I just have a Commercial with Instruments for Helicopters and I'm going to do the Airline Transport Pilot Rotorcraft Helicopter. Why because more and more employers here are asking for it. It's like and Instrument Helicopter Rating 15 years ago it was nice to have now if you don't you may not get hired. About 10 years ago you took the first offer you got in Jan or else you would not have a seat for the season. Now things are a little better. I know what its like to be a low time pilot, its not fun, but on the other hand a willingness to put up with some things will help latter on. The Helicopter end of the business is very fickle. Its going to get better down the road. Some of you guys that Are in training now will end up with some pretty good seats in a few years.