Live DFDR Download
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Live DFDR Download
As part of a MBA assignment, I am doing some research into the measures available to enhance aviation safety, with regards to Live DFDR/CVR downloading.
Background History
I myself am a pilot, and I am also studying for a Master’s Degree in Aviation Management. My assignment is is to evaluate recent accidents, focusing on MH370 and MH17.
As part of this, assignment, I am looking into the proposed suggestion of live data downloading, in order to track aircraft and also the final moments before a crash/accident/incident occurs.
What I require
I have already weighed up costs and technology implications etc. but what I am looking for, is how we as a group of pilots feel about the prospect of every switch we press, every discussion we have could be potentially scrutinised on day to day line flying.
Some questions I am proposing…
Irrespective of cost to company etc. I am looking for answers from a pilots point of view on how something like this would make us feel.
Do you feel Live DFDR downloading is an invasion of privacy?
Would you feel more pressure on your day to day job?
Are you happy with the information being readily available to our employers even on flights without incident?
Should the data only be sent and stored to a external party unless required due to incident/accident?
What instances should the data be allowed to be used?
Should we have Live DFDR downloading?
I would also like to know whether company culture and the places that we work have an effect on peoples opinions, and whether being part of a pilot union feels makes people feel a little more secure?
I appreciate that this is a complex subject and I am merely scratching the surface with these questions, but I would just like to get an understanding of how people would feel.
All data will remain completely anonymous and will only be used for my research.
Below is a link for a survey raising the above points should anyone wish to take part.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/SDZWQPQ
Thanks you in advance, and please feel free to discuss below.
Background History
I myself am a pilot, and I am also studying for a Master’s Degree in Aviation Management. My assignment is is to evaluate recent accidents, focusing on MH370 and MH17.
As part of this, assignment, I am looking into the proposed suggestion of live data downloading, in order to track aircraft and also the final moments before a crash/accident/incident occurs.
What I require
I have already weighed up costs and technology implications etc. but what I am looking for, is how we as a group of pilots feel about the prospect of every switch we press, every discussion we have could be potentially scrutinised on day to day line flying.
Some questions I am proposing…
Irrespective of cost to company etc. I am looking for answers from a pilots point of view on how something like this would make us feel.
Do you feel Live DFDR downloading is an invasion of privacy?
Would you feel more pressure on your day to day job?
Are you happy with the information being readily available to our employers even on flights without incident?
Should the data only be sent and stored to a external party unless required due to incident/accident?
What instances should the data be allowed to be used?
Should we have Live DFDR downloading?
I would also like to know whether company culture and the places that we work have an effect on peoples opinions, and whether being part of a pilot union feels makes people feel a little more secure?
I appreciate that this is a complex subject and I am merely scratching the surface with these questions, but I would just like to get an understanding of how people would feel.
All data will remain completely anonymous and will only be used for my research.
Below is a link for a survey raising the above points should anyone wish to take part.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/SDZWQPQ
Thanks you in advance, and please feel free to discuss below.
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Just as at present DFDR & CVR data is not routinely retrieved, so should any live download. The downloaded data should be securely stored by a competent body e.g. ICAO and the aircraft's manufacturer and retrieved only when warranted - perhaps by court order.
The data should not be as easily accessible as the QAR for flight quality monitoring.
The data should not be as easily accessible as the QAR for flight quality monitoring.
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The problem is the cost. It will not be done unless all airlines are forced to do so. Transmitting data is expensive. I'm also not so sure this data will be secure, not that is has to be because as far as I am concerned, I really don't mind who looks at the data. Just so long as my company continues to pay me to think and not blindly follow SOPs, instructions, working practices etc. so unless you are working for one if these companies, this is a bad idea.
I also believe you are a little naive regarding who looks after the data. Like would you trust the Russians to play ball? This would enable them to shoot down an airliner and this time totally bury all the evidence. And do you think the Russians would transmit data to be handled in the West? And how enlightened are the airline managers east if 50E?
Such a system will be used by the big western carriers and disregarded by the rest, thus making it a pointless and very expensive exercise.
I also believe you are a little naive regarding who looks after the data. Like would you trust the Russians to play ball? This would enable them to shoot down an airliner and this time totally bury all the evidence. And do you think the Russians would transmit data to be handled in the West? And how enlightened are the airline managers east if 50E?
Such a system will be used by the big western carriers and disregarded by the rest, thus making it a pointless and very expensive exercise.
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Not sure what you are afraid of here. Being an Airman you should report any abnormal that threatened safety of flight EG: turbulence, possible hard landing etc. I doubt anyone has the intent to spy on you as that would ultimately cost the airline a lot of money an all have the interest of saving it. A QAR/ACARS report on a hard landing after reported gives an initial report as to the G level. We commonly perform a manual download to confirm, document and decide the level of inspection required. If your judgment is in question why worry? The CVR or combined unit is only pulled when your company decides it is necessary to report and only the FAA in my case or as I suspect your CAA will read as they require it. Bottom line is live monitoring is a ridiculously expensive idea in today's age, esp. on the CVR.
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Hi mbapilot
My first question would be, what is the objective of Live DFDR/CVR streaming?
In trying to meet your objective, why the urgency of having that data delivered live? What shortfall are you trying to address?
My first question would be, what is the objective of Live DFDR/CVR streaming?
In trying to meet your objective, why the urgency of having that data delivered live? What shortfall are you trying to address?
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Just as at present DFDR & CVR data is not routinely retrieved
The CVR is normally "protected" by legislation following an accident or serious incident. There is generally no legislation preventing its use in other circumstances however, most employer / employee agreements will constrain its use as a monitoring tool. (There may be other non-aviation specific legislation which constrains its use outside of the accident scenario.)
Be aware though, that in some states it is a legal requirement for the operator to routinely download the CVR to check that SOPs are being complied with.
Overall I would assume that everything you do or say can be monitored by someone should they wish to.
The cost of transmitting data via satellite is plummeting and the bandwidth is rocketing (pun intended) new constellations by Inmarsat (Gx) and Iridium (NEXT) are likely to see 50 meg / sec to from aircraft. Over Europe Inmarsat's alpha will see 70+ meg/sec.
By contrast live FDR needs about 1 meg an hour ish. (dependent on type, number and rate of parameters). Live voice is only 128kb/sec ish.
The cost you are offsetting by live streaming is not just the "lost aircraft where do we look cost" (a low frequency / high consequence event) but the routine cost of moving the data off the aircraft anyhow for FOQA by either ground based data link or engineers going and pulling / replacing cards.
Hmm that post ended up much longer than I meant!
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Thank you for the responses that I have received so far.
The study that I am carrying out, is looking into what technology is available to help out with situations such as MH370. Not only is the aircraft and people on board still missing, but the data to help us create a picture of what happened is also irretrievable at this present time.
So as a small part of this assignment I am looking into the prospect of Live Data/CVR downloading that will not only track where the airplane is, but will give this valuable information immediately should it be required, without worrying about retrieving the Black Box and whether its in tact and information is useful.
So as I said in my original post, I have already researched and considered issues such as cost/bandwidth/technology etc. but I was more curious as to how this makes pilots feel.
The reason I ask, is that not all of us work in a company that treats all employees fairly and provide pilots with freedom of speech within there own environment, and there have been instances of normal 'pilot-talk' in the flight deck being used against said pilots in disciplinary matters. Not every pilot around the globe is protected by unions and fair tribunals. And as a professional airman, I am very proactive in reporting all abnormals in my job that affect safety.
I agree with 'normally protected' and 'most employers', however this is not the case with everyone worldwide.
Once again, thank you for everyones contributions so far. I look forward to gathering more data soon enough.
What is the objective of Live DFDR/CVR streaming?
In trying to meet your objective, why the urgency of having that data delivered live? What shortfall are you trying to address?
In trying to meet your objective, why the urgency of having that data delivered live? What shortfall are you trying to address?
So as a small part of this assignment I am looking into the prospect of Live Data/CVR downloading that will not only track where the airplane is, but will give this valuable information immediately should it be required, without worrying about retrieving the Black Box and whether its in tact and information is useful.
So as I said in my original post, I have already researched and considered issues such as cost/bandwidth/technology etc. but I was more curious as to how this makes pilots feel.
Not sure what you are afraid of here. Being an Airman you should report any abnormal that threatened safety of flight
The CVR is normally "protected" by legislation following an accident or serious incident. There is generally no legislation preventing its use in other circumstances however, most employer / employee agreements will constrain its use as a monitoring tool.
Once again, thank you for everyones contributions so far. I look forward to gathering more data soon enough.
Not sure what you are afraid of here
Flight data monitoring for all the positives, now has a bigger negative effect....very few people now flying for airlines with this in place will manually fly for risk of setting off the alarms. We then wonder why crews lose control of aircraft with instrument/flight control issues.
The people who should be watched closely are the rulemakers around the world who allow people to fly tired & undertrained all in the name of making the quickest buck.
Currently my airline uses data link in remote areas. We are able to "text message" ATC and the aircraft is sending messages to ATC and the company on a schedule I don't even know. (A friend blocked in in Germany and noticed a spare engine sitting on the ramp. While finishing paperwork the German techs came up and asked if they had any problems with the number two engine. "No, why do you ask?" "It called the company and wants to be changed" was the reply he got.)
Anyway all this works great except every once in a while we'll get a system message "Data Link Lost." Then 15-20 minutes later we'll get a message "Data Link Available." What the odds that you'll get tonnes of normal data then when something happens you'll be in some blind spot and not get the data you want?
Anyway all this works great except every once in a while we'll get a system message "Data Link Lost." Then 15-20 minutes later we'll get a message "Data Link Available." What the odds that you'll get tonnes of normal data then when something happens you'll be in some blind spot and not get the data you want?
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The following is just an idea. I don't know the viability of it. If the goal is to implement a solution that can help us locate an aircraft to within a 10-15 mile radius, a very simple solution could be to use the HF radio and have it automatically broadcast a Lat/Long position over some chosen frequency whenever an "emergency" conditon is sensed or when the crew press a "panic" button of some sort. The broadcast can be digital if it can be achieved (don't know if that's possible to be honest), but even an audible message played continuosly over a frequency which a handful of worldwide stations are tuned into would suffice. Broadcasting and receiving the HF message is free of charge and already included in the subscription and you'd have a very good chance of being heard even a 1,000 miles away (given the right conditions). Minimal technology involved. We'd be doing what the crew would do if they had the time, nothing more required IMHO.
