IFR-stuff
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IFR-stuff
Good evening all!
I've got a few questions regarding navigation and aerodrome procedures.
Firstly, could somebody explain a bit more in detail what the purpose of the SID is?
I know it's got something to do with the climb out, but I'm not shure.
Secondly, Approach plates. I believe there are different types of approaches one can make, and they're all named differently. And how do you know which to use. Ofcourse it must be specified in the clearance, but one must be able to expect which approach to use?
Am I completely lost here? I haven't started my IR yet but curiosity is killing me!
And thirdly, The use of intersections. I guess they're programmed in the FMS, but I your A/C is in lack of one of those? Are they found by use of VOR's and certain specified radials?
If somebody would find the time to clear this mess up, I'd be grateful, and perhaps I'd not be quite so lost when I finally sit there in class!
Cheers
I've got a few questions regarding navigation and aerodrome procedures.
Firstly, could somebody explain a bit more in detail what the purpose of the SID is?
I know it's got something to do with the climb out, but I'm not shure.
Secondly, Approach plates. I believe there are different types of approaches one can make, and they're all named differently. And how do you know which to use. Ofcourse it must be specified in the clearance, but one must be able to expect which approach to use?
Am I completely lost here? I haven't started my IR yet but curiosity is killing me!
And thirdly, The use of intersections. I guess they're programmed in the FMS, but I your A/C is in lack of one of those? Are they found by use of VOR's and certain specified radials?
If somebody would find the time to clear this mess up, I'd be grateful, and perhaps I'd not be quite so lost when I finally sit there in class!
Cheers
Guest
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SIDS are designed to take you from the airfield to join an airway, based on ground based NAV aids, without the need for ATC instruction and accomodating noise preferential routings. Its basically a SOP. By flying the SID, you know where your going, and ATC know where you should be going. Based on this known projected flightpath, ATC can provide separation between subsequent departures.
Guest
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SIDs: Indeed they are standard routings. And in countries where people constantly complain about noise, they're also for noise abatement.
Approach plates: Yes different types, depending on the applicable navigation facility available for that particular runway. Whichever is available, you take.
You can get info on runway in use about 30 minutes out via a dedicated radio frequency.
Intersections are identified by radials and bearings from beacons.
If you have GPS or an FMS you can find them through the use of their coordinates.
Enjoy!
Approach plates: Yes different types, depending on the applicable navigation facility available for that particular runway. Whichever is available, you take.
You can get info on runway in use about 30 minutes out via a dedicated radio frequency.
Intersections are identified by radials and bearings from beacons.
If you have GPS or an FMS you can find them through the use of their coordinates.
Enjoy!
Guest
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Hi low n'slow
I've recently done the IR theory. I was in the same situation as you.
1) (see Push's answer) But I think in Europe SIDs are often also there for noise abatement. If you have to fly an exact path you make your noise over a determined aerea. In the US that doesn't exist. There the ATC will vector you to the airway. That means after dearture they will tell you always the heading to fly and will supervise you on the radar. That's more efficient but the noises are pracically uncontrolled.
2) The app procedure begins at the initial approach fix (IAF). So your STAR will lead you to the IAF. At the IAF you have to be prepared for all the approaches that begin there. But dont worry in the ATIS you will hear wich runway is in use, so you can expect that runway. In most of all cases you will fly down the ILS, if there is one. If the ILS in unservicable, you will also be informed about that in the ATIS. The airports have also so called VOR or NDB approaches you can use. If you need clarifiation you can ask the ATC wich approach you have to fly, they will inform you as soon as they can.
3)Intersections are used like road intersections, so you can change the airway there. The intersections are always clearly defined by a navigation aid (in most of all cases a radial and a distance), so you don't need an FMS to find them. That is conventional IFR. You fly from VOR A to VOR B and turn at Intersections between the VORs or at the VORs.
But there is also the so called Aerea Navigation (RNAV). Using RNAV your ACFT has systems that allow you to navigate between the VORs. That means you can fly "cross country" from 15NM west of VOR A to 25 NM west of VOR B on a diect line. There are so called RNAV airways. To youse that your A/C needs to be certified for RNAV. And there an FMS is helpful.
Hope I could be a little help for you. Don't worry if you don't get it, I needed also much time to understand all that.
Good luck
380
I've recently done the IR theory. I was in the same situation as you.
1) (see Push's answer) But I think in Europe SIDs are often also there for noise abatement. If you have to fly an exact path you make your noise over a determined aerea. In the US that doesn't exist. There the ATC will vector you to the airway. That means after dearture they will tell you always the heading to fly and will supervise you on the radar. That's more efficient but the noises are pracically uncontrolled.
2) The app procedure begins at the initial approach fix (IAF). So your STAR will lead you to the IAF. At the IAF you have to be prepared for all the approaches that begin there. But dont worry in the ATIS you will hear wich runway is in use, so you can expect that runway. In most of all cases you will fly down the ILS, if there is one. If the ILS in unservicable, you will also be informed about that in the ATIS. The airports have also so called VOR or NDB approaches you can use. If you need clarifiation you can ask the ATC wich approach you have to fly, they will inform you as soon as they can.
3)Intersections are used like road intersections, so you can change the airway there. The intersections are always clearly defined by a navigation aid (in most of all cases a radial and a distance), so you don't need an FMS to find them. That is conventional IFR. You fly from VOR A to VOR B and turn at Intersections between the VORs or at the VORs.
But there is also the so called Aerea Navigation (RNAV). Using RNAV your ACFT has systems that allow you to navigate between the VORs. That means you can fly "cross country" from 15NM west of VOR A to 25 NM west of VOR B on a diect line. There are so called RNAV airways. To youse that your A/C needs to be certified for RNAV. And there an FMS is helpful.
Hope I could be a little help for you. Don't worry if you don't get it, I needed also much time to understand all that.
Good luck
380
Guest
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Thanx folks! I think I get it!?
After T/O I use the SID to get to the airway. After that I pass a couple of intersections using radials and distances.
Then I use the STAR to get to my IAF, from which I take up the appropriate approach plate, depending on runway in use and available facilities. Have I understood it?
But then there must be several different SIDs and STARs depending on which airway is appropriate? Things are starting to make sense!
Cheers all and thanks for some very explanetory answers!
After T/O I use the SID to get to the airway. After that I pass a couple of intersections using radials and distances.
Then I use the STAR to get to my IAF, from which I take up the appropriate approach plate, depending on runway in use and available facilities. Have I understood it?
But then there must be several different SIDs and STARs depending on which airway is appropriate? Things are starting to make sense!
Cheers all and thanks for some very explanetory answers!
Guest
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Two more points to consider:
1) SIDs also provide terrain separation, so make sure you comply with any gradients or level-by instructions. (Incidentally, the removal of an ATC speed restriction on departure does not mean you do not have to comply with those level-by instructions. If going fast means you can't make them, then don't go fast!)
2) All these procedures can be circumvented by a helpful radar controller giving you radar vectors!
Good luck with the IR!
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
1) SIDs also provide terrain separation, so make sure you comply with any gradients or level-by instructions. (Incidentally, the removal of an ATC speed restriction on departure does not mean you do not have to comply with those level-by instructions. If going fast means you can't make them, then don't go fast!)
2) All these procedures can be circumvented by a helpful radar controller giving you radar vectors!
Good luck with the IR!
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"Take-off is optional, Landing is mandatory"
Guest
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And another point, I understood the purpose of the 'SID' concept was to reduce radio clutter.
eg. having
"XXX you are cleared via SID 34 to YY FL140 passing 1000' contact Idunnowai 123.4"
"Cleared to YY SID 34 FL140 passing 1000' 123.4 XXX"
instead of
"XXX you are cleared to takeoff, climb to 500' then turn right intercept the 050 radial and climb to 2000' then turn right intercept 180 radial climb to 5000' then intercept track to YY cleared FL140 oh and in the middle of all that between steps 2 and 3 contact Idunnowai 123.4"
"ZZ tower say again, I dropped my pen"
16 seconds start to finish for the first, 26 for #2. Ten seconds becomes a long time on radio.
It means you have got some set options before you even get in the aeroplane, that are all nicely surveyed, ATC can leave you to it and if your radio fails halfway you have got a big clearance in picture form to continue on.
But then I'm not current, so I may be not expressing myself clearly (or I may just not know any more!)
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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
eg. having
"XXX you are cleared via SID 34 to YY FL140 passing 1000' contact Idunnowai 123.4"
"Cleared to YY SID 34 FL140 passing 1000' 123.4 XXX"
instead of
"XXX you are cleared to takeoff, climb to 500' then turn right intercept the 050 radial and climb to 2000' then turn right intercept 180 radial climb to 5000' then intercept track to YY cleared FL140 oh and in the middle of all that between steps 2 and 3 contact Idunnowai 123.4"
"ZZ tower say again, I dropped my pen"
16 seconds start to finish for the first, 26 for #2. Ten seconds becomes a long time on radio.
It means you have got some set options before you even get in the aeroplane, that are all nicely surveyed, ATC can leave you to it and if your radio fails halfway you have got a big clearance in picture form to continue on.
But then I'm not current, so I may be not expressing myself clearly (or I may just not know any more!)
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Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
Guest
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380,
Just a small correction here: RNAV stands for Relational or Relative Navigation
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Think Rate! Don't Think! Don't Think!
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">But there is also the so called Aerea Navigation (RNAV). </font>
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Think Rate! Don't Think! Don't Think!
