UK -Sharm El Sheik Ops
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UK -Sharm El Sheik Ops
Recently pax'ed from LGW to SSH with Thomson on 763 (out) and 75W (back) and noticed from what I could tell that the crew operated out and return, with approx 1.5hrs on the ground in Sharm. Flight times were approx 5 hrs on the way out and 5.5 on the way back.
That seems like a long day at the office to me!
How close does this get to a legal maximums re. duty day? How much contingency is there is case of delays during turn-around, en-route diversions etc?
The new BA 777 service started while I was out there, and I noticed it has a rather longer stop (approx 5 hrs) in SSH - is that for some sort of rest?
That seems like a long day at the office to me!
How close does this get to a legal maximums re. duty day? How much contingency is there is case of delays during turn-around, en-route diversions etc?
The new BA 777 service started while I was out there, and I noticed it has a rather longer stop (approx 5 hrs) in SSH - is that for some sort of rest?
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It is a long day at "the office". However, under EUops-subpart Q ( the flight time limitations) rules and regs. We can be rostered a 14 hour Flight duty period twice in 7 days, as long as a rest day is allocated before and after the duty.
Things do need to run efficiently to get there and back in one duty and 99% of the time they do!
On my rest day today and off to SSH tomorrow.
Things do need to run efficiently to get there and back in one duty and 99% of the time they do!
On my rest day today and off to SSH tomorrow.
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Thanks for that - it seemed to me that most UK flights arrive in Sharm late pm and therefore return late evening to the UK - a day off would be a must after that!
Expected to see a lot of UK carriers in Sharm, didn't expect that they would be easily outnumbered by the Russians - an unmarked IL86 came past our resort (in Nabq) on departure one evening - only climbing I think due to the curvature of the earth
Expected to see a lot of UK carriers in Sharm, didn't expect that they would be easily outnumbered by the Russians - an unmarked IL86 came past our resort (in Nabq) on departure one evening - only climbing I think due to the curvature of the earth
Last edited by Wycombe; 10th Nov 2009 at 16:52.
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Wycombe:
It's done using what's called a "Level 2 Variation" which is a set of conditions that allow an extended FDP, as Plumponpies says above.
Amongst other things it requires the crew to be off-duty by a certain time the previous day and to be rostered a "Recovery Day" free of all duties afterwards. There are other aspects to it too, but that's the basics.
It's not usually popular though!
Well, they could get a little bit of rest if they were using a split duty, but you wouldn't get much useful FDP extension (if any) with only a 5 hour stopover. They probably slip crews downroute I would guess. I don't know though as I don't work for BA.
It's done using what's called a "Level 2 Variation" which is a set of conditions that allow an extended FDP, as Plumponpies says above.
Amongst other things it requires the crew to be off-duty by a certain time the previous day and to be rostered a "Recovery Day" free of all duties afterwards. There are other aspects to it too, but that's the basics.
It's not usually popular though!
The new BA 777 service started while I was out there, and I noticed it has a rather longer stop (approx 5 hrs) in SSH - is that for some sort of rest?
Couple of points about our new service to Sharm El Sheikh. It's not a daily service so crews leave LGW on Sun, Tues and Thursdays. As the flights are operated by '77s it's a longhaul route so single sector and layover.
The one to bid for is the Thursday rotation............
The one to bid for is the Thursday rotation............
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Which is part of the reason why BA is losing money. When you compare the KLM B777 AMS-CAI which is on the ground for about an hour.
Crew hotels, aircraft out of action for several days etc all costs money.
Crew hotels, aircraft out of action for several days etc all costs money.
Last edited by L'aviateur; 20th Nov 2009 at 15:59.
Thread Starter
Some interesting info in these replies, thanks all
It is then a long day for those of you that operate out on a day return basis from the UK to the Red Sea resorts, but as a few of you explained the regs. allow it, there is adequate rest rostered around it, and as long as the trip "runs on rails" the worst you might suffer is a "numb bum".
If I'm honest, I am struggling to see why BA can't operate the route the same way everyone else does? Just sounds soooo ineffiecient....
1. A long haul aircraft that could be making more money being utilised doing what it was designed for is sat on the deck in SSH (no doubt incurring more parking charges than if it was on a quick turn and return?)
2. There are crews slipped for multiple day layovers at the end of a 5hr sector(very nice for them I'm sure), when they could fly out and back like everyone else - surely a 777 can be turned around in 1.5 hrs?
3. EZY operate UK to Sharm with 320's and 321's (and I think GB used to when they flew under the BA franchise), so why not a more regular service using a smaller aircraft?
Oh, I forgot this is BA...and the Unions and outdated working practices may be the death of the airline....glad I'm not a shareholder!
It is then a long day for those of you that operate out on a day return basis from the UK to the Red Sea resorts, but as a few of you explained the regs. allow it, there is adequate rest rostered around it, and as long as the trip "runs on rails" the worst you might suffer is a "numb bum".
If I'm honest, I am struggling to see why BA can't operate the route the same way everyone else does? Just sounds soooo ineffiecient....
1. A long haul aircraft that could be making more money being utilised doing what it was designed for is sat on the deck in SSH (no doubt incurring more parking charges than if it was on a quick turn and return?)
2. There are crews slipped for multiple day layovers at the end of a 5hr sector(very nice for them I'm sure), when they could fly out and back like everyone else - surely a 777 can be turned around in 1.5 hrs?
3. EZY operate UK to Sharm with 320's and 321's (and I think GB used to when they flew under the BA franchise), so why not a more regular service using a smaller aircraft?
Oh, I forgot this is BA...and the Unions and outdated working practices may be the death of the airline....glad I'm not a shareholder!
aircraft out of action for several days
sat on the deck in SSH (no doubt incurring more parking charges than if it was on a quick turn and return?)
Thread Starter
ETOPS you quoted me:
Then issued the riposte:
Not sure I understand your response, it is quite obvious that the aircraft would return to the UK using the crew from the previous inbound - albeit they may have arrived up to 3 days earlier! (flight only operates outbound on days 1, 4 and 6).
Back to the original point I was making - which was that it sits "on the deck in SSH" for 6 hours (arr 0500, dep 1100 according to the BA timetable) - that cannot be efficient use of a high-value revenue-generating asset - even if it parked in SSH for nothing!
sat on the deck in SSH....
Same for you Wycombe
Back to the original point I was making - which was that it sits "on the deck in SSH" for 6 hours (arr 0500, dep 1100 according to the BA timetable) - that cannot be efficient use of a high-value revenue-generating asset - even if it parked in SSH for nothing!
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If those times are accurate they are bloomin awful! Sharm flights are obviously ( I would think) aimed at tourist traffic. I wouldn't be keen on a shortish flight through the night to then arrive early morning and be unable to get to my hotel until early afternoon. Nor would I want to waste my last night just to get up early morning and go straight to the airport - I could have gone home the previous day mid afternoon and saved a days leave, not to mention hotel rooms etc.
I went on EZY to Sharm a while back. 1200 local ex LGW, then around 1900 local ex sharm. Suited me better. And the crew managed to do it all without a 3 day stopover
I went on EZY to Sharm a while back. 1200 local ex LGW, then around 1900 local ex sharm. Suited me better. And the crew managed to do it all without a 3 day stopover
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Originally Posted by Wycombe
Some interesting info in these replies, thanks all 
It is then a long day for those of you that operate out on a day return basis from the UK to the Red Sea resorts, but as a few of you explained the regs. allow it, there is adequate rest rostered around it, and as long as the trip "runs on rails" the worst you might suffer is a "numb bum".
If I'm honest, I am struggling to see why BA can't operate the route the same way everyone else does? Just sounds soooo ineffiecient....
1. A long haul aircraft that could be making more money being utilised doing what it was designed for is sat on the deck in SSH (no doubt incurring more parking charges than if it was on a quick turn and return?)
2. There are crews slipped for multiple day layovers at the end of a 5hr sector(very nice for them I'm sure), when they could fly out and back like everyone else - surely a 777 can be turned around in 1.5 hrs?
3. EZY operate UK to Sharm with 320's and 321's (and I think GB used to when they flew under the BA franchise), so why not a more regular service using a smaller aircraft?
Oh, I forgot this is BA...and the Unions and outdated working practices may be the death of the airline....glad I'm not a shareholder!
It is then a long day for those of you that operate out on a day return basis from the UK to the Red Sea resorts, but as a few of you explained the regs. allow it, there is adequate rest rostered around it, and as long as the trip "runs on rails" the worst you might suffer is a "numb bum".
If I'm honest, I am struggling to see why BA can't operate the route the same way everyone else does? Just sounds soooo ineffiecient....
1. A long haul aircraft that could be making more money being utilised doing what it was designed for is sat on the deck in SSH (no doubt incurring more parking charges than if it was on a quick turn and return?)
2. There are crews slipped for multiple day layovers at the end of a 5hr sector(very nice for them I'm sure), when they could fly out and back like everyone else - surely a 777 can be turned around in 1.5 hrs?
3. EZY operate UK to Sharm with 320's and 321's (and I think GB used to when they flew under the BA franchise), so why not a more regular service using a smaller aircraft?
Oh, I forgot this is BA...and the Unions and outdated working practices may be the death of the airline....glad I'm not a shareholder!
I suspect that this may be a slot issue due to it being a new route. There is no way BA would have the aircraft sitting on the ground for 5 hrs if they didn't have to, even if the crew were nightstopping! However, the fact that it is on the ground for that length of time leaves no choice but to night stop the crew due to time restrictions. And the infrequency of the service, again, possibly due to slot issues or maybe because they are testing the market, means a longer trip for all.
At LGW, we have none of the restrictive agreements that exist up the road and we work damned hard. In fact, I work far more hours than I ever did at charter and for pretty much the same money. But it's a different type of service and generally, much less pressured when onboard. Swings and roundabouts, I guess you would say.
I fully expect this to become a there and back as soon as it is possible for BA to operate it in that way, so please, give us a break and let us enjoy this rare touch of luxury!
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Wycombe
As ten west states Airlines use a variation to the rules to operate to SSH and back. This variation is used also to places such as Luxor, Banjul and other charter flights further away than the standard Palma. The variation allows a 14.15 hr day if reporting after 0800 am. Bear in mind the cabin crew probably report 90 mins before departure and a 767 will take 90 mins to turn round - a long day compensated by pre and post flight rest and restrictions on how many such flights can be done in 28 days etc.
Clearly the reason why charter airlines use it is cost and frequency. Some flights only go once/twice a week the luxury of leaving crew their is costly in terms of hotels, allowances and crew numbers have to be increased. That said some airlines do night stop their crews, if flights are delayed there's little chance of recovery.
BA would never use such a variation, industrial agreements would get in the way. Even Athens they night stop. Many years ago I went LHR-BGI on Concorde the crew got off and stayed their a week. Had a charter airline operated concorde they would have gone round trip for such (about 4 hrs each way)
As ten west states Airlines use a variation to the rules to operate to SSH and back. This variation is used also to places such as Luxor, Banjul and other charter flights further away than the standard Palma. The variation allows a 14.15 hr day if reporting after 0800 am. Bear in mind the cabin crew probably report 90 mins before departure and a 767 will take 90 mins to turn round - a long day compensated by pre and post flight rest and restrictions on how many such flights can be done in 28 days etc.
Clearly the reason why charter airlines use it is cost and frequency. Some flights only go once/twice a week the luxury of leaving crew their is costly in terms of hotels, allowances and crew numbers have to be increased. That said some airlines do night stop their crews, if flights are delayed there's little chance of recovery.
BA would never use such a variation, industrial agreements would get in the way. Even Athens they night stop. Many years ago I went LHR-BGI on Concorde the crew got off and stayed their a week. Had a charter airline operated concorde they would have gone round trip for such (about 4 hrs each way)
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Originally Posted by Banzai Eagle
BA would never use such a variation, industrial agreements would get in the way. Even Athens they night stop. Many years ago I went LHR-BGI on Concorde the crew got off and stayed their a week. Had a charter airline operated concorde they would have gone round trip for such (about 4 hrs each way)
Am I speaking a different language? I have just spent 10 minutes, painstakingly trying to explain why I think this route is presently, (please note the "presently"), a layover. Or do you prefer to ignore the posts that don't fit in with your apparent predudices concerning BA crew. This is a LGW route. Once again, we do not have the same agreements that are seen at LHR!
It's a shame as the original question was a valid and good question, which is why I tried my best to put my theories forward. As important as all of us crew like to think we are, schedules do not just revolve around us! Anyone remember the horrific Malta, Pathos, Ibiza and Palma slots when we first started operating the routes? Horrible for us and even worse for our passengers. 4 hrs on the ground and taking off for the return sector at silly o'clock. It was because they were the only slots we could get! As said, I would guess the same thing applies here, which is why the aircraft is on the ground for 5 hrs.
Oh, what's the point? Lets just change the thread title to "I Hate BA Crew!"
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Jetset
Take a chill pill, Wycombe asked more than 1 question about why the aircraft had a 5 hr layover.
Anti BA not really, just we all have our personal opinions. I enjoyed the fruits of living with someone who worked as BA Cabin Crew for 20 years but I also have worked in Airlines since I left School some 30 years ago so I guess I come somewhere in the middle when it comes to BA
Take a chill pill, Wycombe asked more than 1 question about why the aircraft had a 5 hr layover.
Anti BA not really, just we all have our personal opinions. I enjoyed the fruits of living with someone who worked as BA Cabin Crew for 20 years but I also have worked in Airlines since I left School some 30 years ago so I guess I come somewhere in the middle when it comes to BA
Thread Starter
Jetset Lady,
Thanks for your replies - you have put across very well a different perspective on what could be some of the underlying reasons why this new route has started operations the way it has.
I don't work in the industry, but do follow it quite closely, and was aware that BA at LGW is a very different Company to BA at LHR - although probably not to the extent that you have illuded - obviously a cause of some bitterness, and I apologise if I've stirred that up.
Although I sometimes question BA's strategies (I guess that comes across in the opening questions I asked!) - I want the airline to succeed for the global brand and representative of "UK PLC" that it is, despite the best efforts of some of it's staff (not you
) to bring it to it's knees.
Thanks for your replies - you have put across very well a different perspective on what could be some of the underlying reasons why this new route has started operations the way it has.
I don't work in the industry, but do follow it quite closely, and was aware that BA at LGW is a very different Company to BA at LHR - although probably not to the extent that you have illuded - obviously a cause of some bitterness, and I apologise if I've stirred that up.
Although I sometimes question BA's strategies (I guess that comes across in the opening questions I asked!) - I want the airline to succeed for the global brand and representative of "UK PLC" that it is, despite the best efforts of some of it's staff (not you
) to bring it to it's knees.