The eternal FO
Thread Starter
The eternal FO
I have met a few FO's who for one reason or another have no wish to upgrade - and are quite content with their lot in life. In fact I am coming to the conclusion slowly that I am one of those few.
This is viewed in my opinion negatively by many - and for that reason it is not something most wish to broadcast overtly.
Any experiences?
This is viewed in my opinion negatively by many - and for that reason it is not something most wish to broadcast overtly.
Any experiences?
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who cares what anyone else thinks? You do your thing, let others do theirs.
Some firms do have upgrade policies, however, and failure to upgrade within a certain time period may be construed negatively or may result in termination.
While you are not obligated to explain yourself, of curiosity, why do you not wish to upgrade? I've met others with the same feelings; they've got what they need where they are, they're senior enough that they get to choose their vacations, their days off, their bids...and they lose that if they upgrade. I'm sure there are as many reasons as there are folks who don't wish to upgrade, or are taking their time to do so.
Some firms do have upgrade policies, however, and failure to upgrade within a certain time period may be construed negatively or may result in termination.
While you are not obligated to explain yourself, of curiosity, why do you not wish to upgrade? I've met others with the same feelings; they've got what they need where they are, they're senior enough that they get to choose their vacations, their days off, their bids...and they lose that if they upgrade. I'm sure there are as many reasons as there are folks who don't wish to upgrade, or are taking their time to do so.
You are quite right; I came across a fair few "professional first officers" in my long career who had no wish to move seats. I think I am right in saying that all of them were bloody good operators and were good news to have in the other seat.
I think most of them had reached a happy level in their flying careers in which they were doing a good job but simply didn't want any more responsibility.
Interestingly, one of them had got shot down during WWII and had ended up in prison camp so maybe he felt that that particular command had not gone particularly well.
My favourite gave me a great bit of advice:
"Learn to live on a F/O's salary and that way you will never be in the sh*t when your company goes down the pan and you have to look for another job".
How true; how very, very true!
I think most of them had reached a happy level in their flying careers in which they were doing a good job but simply didn't want any more responsibility.
Interestingly, one of them had got shot down during WWII and had ended up in prison camp so maybe he felt that that particular command had not gone particularly well.
My favourite gave me a great bit of advice:
"Learn to live on a F/O's salary and that way you will never be in the sh*t when your company goes down the pan and you have to look for another job".
How true; how very, very true!
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,097
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many, many moons ago, in Guam, (I think), I shared a few beers with a Pan American SFO. I asked him about command prospects and he said that anytime he wanted he could go for B727 captain, based New York as he already had the seniority but he was much happier as a Honolulu based SFO, flying the B747 world wide, in the top ten seniority numbers of SFOs in Pan Am, it was all about life style.
Last edited by parabellum; 14th Jun 2009 at 06:01.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I have a friend, meanwhile retired, who made his way from the 737 via DC10 to the A340. Senior First Officer. He was offered to upgrade to left seat and he refused.
Reason: As he had reached to uppermost payscale for F/O on longhaul, and as a "new" captain being forced to join the short / medium range fleet, his salary would not have changed for several years. Since he enjoyed the longhaul destinations and the different lifestyle, it was out of the question for him to alter anything.
Reason: As he had reached to uppermost payscale for F/O on longhaul, and as a "new" captain being forced to join the short / medium range fleet, his salary would not have changed for several years. Since he enjoyed the longhaul destinations and the different lifestyle, it was out of the question for him to alter anything.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Kalifornia
Age: 56
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A friend of mine is a senior 777 FO at CO, and he is very happy where he is. Many of us have logged command time in the military or other airlines and are no strangers to the responsibilities involved, so quality of life issues take precedence me thinks.
I hope to make CA some day, but it is not my primary motivation. These days I would be happy just to get recalled. Being furloughed is no fun!
I hope to make CA some day, but it is not my primary motivation. These days I would be happy just to get recalled. Being furloughed is no fun!
Thread Starter
While you are not obligated to explain yourself, of curiosity, why do you not wish to upgrade?
Thanks for your constructive advice guys!
At Air Canada, pay and seniority are based on starting date, not upgrade date. Many sit in the right seat until just before retirement and then take the upgrade in order to up the pension.
My lifestyle depends far more on days off than on paycheque.
My lifestyle depends far more on days off than on paycheque.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: France
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Long term FO
I knew one who initially trained in Australia and then flew his whole career with an South East Asian airline as a First Officer.
It was his choice and he was one of 'Nature's Gentleman'. If he had so wished, he could have upgraded to Command but that was not his way.
Tmb
It was his choice and he was one of 'Nature's Gentleman'. If he had so wished, he could have upgraded to Command but that was not his way.
Tmb
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,097
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another aspect, some airlines only allow two goes at a command upgrade and then you are out. Some airlines don't want 'career' FOs.
Everyone has to make their decision based on their personal circumstances.
Everyone has to make their decision based on their personal circumstances.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: sh!# hole
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you take a look at jobs outside of being a professional airline pilot, you will find lots of people happy with the job they have and do not aspire to be promoted.
I feel in this industry there is always the need to be at the top. I also understand that we have the chance to be promoted and it's one of those onging things in life, however there are the guys that are quite content to be where they are.
Oz
I feel in this industry there is always the need to be at the top. I also understand that we have the chance to be promoted and it's one of those onging things in life, however there are the guys that are quite content to be where they are.
Oz
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: LHR
Posts: 331
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a really interesting thread and I can understand totally the desires of those who don't wish to occupy the left seat.
Myself, I'm rushing headlong towards the hours required to be considered for a Command Course. Am I going to go for it? No. Not yet anyway. Reasons for this, well I'm okay financially on my salary - not rich but not scraping by, I'm settled at home with the Mrs, home every night and enjoy a very stable roster that lets me plan my life a year in advance or more. If I go for the upgrade, well the money goes up obviously and there for me the advantages cease. I would have to move away from home (most probably to a new country and Mrs' job means she couldn't come), accomodate myself with all the associated costs from my own money, as well as keeping up the demands on the UK house (all of a sudden there goes the increased salary and lifestyle is no better, in fact it's wosre), the roster pattern changes so anything we may have had in the pipeline has to be changed if able etc etc. But also in consideration is the job itself. For me moving to the left seat is a big responsibility and at just under 3000 hours I don't feel experienced enough to take that level of responsibility on my shoulders, my SIM and Line Check grades all say I'm good enough but you also have to be mentally ready for the upgrade. I know loads of guys in my company who are just rushing to get into the left seat as quickly as possible with no care or bother about anything else. And if that suits them thats fine, and if they're good enough they will make it through (plenty don't). Each to their own I guess.
Myself, I'm rushing headlong towards the hours required to be considered for a Command Course. Am I going to go for it? No. Not yet anyway. Reasons for this, well I'm okay financially on my salary - not rich but not scraping by, I'm settled at home with the Mrs, home every night and enjoy a very stable roster that lets me plan my life a year in advance or more. If I go for the upgrade, well the money goes up obviously and there for me the advantages cease. I would have to move away from home (most probably to a new country and Mrs' job means she couldn't come), accomodate myself with all the associated costs from my own money, as well as keeping up the demands on the UK house (all of a sudden there goes the increased salary and lifestyle is no better, in fact it's wosre), the roster pattern changes so anything we may have had in the pipeline has to be changed if able etc etc. But also in consideration is the job itself. For me moving to the left seat is a big responsibility and at just under 3000 hours I don't feel experienced enough to take that level of responsibility on my shoulders, my SIM and Line Check grades all say I'm good enough but you also have to be mentally ready for the upgrade. I know loads of guys in my company who are just rushing to get into the left seat as quickly as possible with no care or bother about anything else. And if that suits them thats fine, and if they're good enough they will make it through (plenty don't). Each to their own I guess.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It sits perfectly well with me if people choose to be career First Officers, provided that he/she never forgets that he/she is the Deputy Commander of the aircraft, and should be mentally prepared and confident to assume the Command role due to circumstance or situation.
Over the years there have been a sufficient number of F/Os achieving "Instant Command" due to the Captain's incapacitation or death to warrant this assertion.
If they feel competent to command, then it's fine with me. If not, perhaps they should seek an alternative form of employment.
Best Regards,
Old Smokey
Over the years there have been a sufficient number of F/Os achieving "Instant Command" due to the Captain's incapacitation or death to warrant this assertion.
If they feel competent to command, then it's fine with me. If not, perhaps they should seek an alternative form of employment.
Best Regards,
Old Smokey
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,312
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my own experience the vast majority of "career First Officers" have been passed over for promotion by the airlines management training department, rather than have expressed a desire not to be promoted. Usually the reason is that the candidate is assessed as either not having the requisite experience at that point in time, or assessed as unlikley to stand a reasonable chance of success if put forward for a command course. When this occurs, it will usually result in significant dialogue between the two parties to establish an understanding for the decision taken, and a roadmap for future improvement to meet the criteria for consideration.
There are many reasons why people in this situation do not advance further to a successful command upgrade. In some circumstances people who are perfectly able and capable in their everyday performance, simply fail to cope with the stress they feel when under an artificial testing regime. Similarly people often fail to show sufficient assertiveness when required. None of this makes the candidate any less of an individual or in most cases any less of a perfectly competent and able pilot. However if the problems cannot be sufficiently rectified, it will prove a bar to further selective advancement to the role of Captain. In some cases there is an acceptance of this and the individual is satisfied to accept their role of "career F/O." In my experience these people have the obvious advantage of being the most mature and experienced colleagues you will fly with. The wealth of experience they bring to the operation is very much a safety advantage, and they undertake all the roles of second in command with confidence and aplomb which makes for a relaxed flight or trip. Although they haven't been promoted, they understand the role of the other seat very well, and are able to be much more pro-active and understanding of what is required to make the captains job easier.
Given the different structure and consequential lifestyles that different airline operations afford, it is also going to be inevitable that some people will elect to hold themselves back from promotion for a whole gamut of lifestyle reasons. Where this does occur, it is likely to be in operations that involve structured short and long-haul flying, as well as those with a geographical diversity of bases. Despite this, most people in a competitive career will for all the obvious reasons, always aim for the earliest opportunity for progression. Not least because this may involve issues of long term seniority, pension, salary, and uncertain windows of opportunity. However as in any walk of life there will also be people who have personal issues in their own lives that they feel are more relevant and preclude the desire to advance to captain.
I have to say that I have never come across a situation where an airline would seek to terminate somebody because they either didn't want to be promoted, or because they were assessed as unsuitable for promotion. Certainly employers will normally employ those individuals who at the time of interview seem likely to advance to the role eventually. However as long as the person maintains an acceptable standard for the job they are preforming, I would have some serious doubts that any such practice was lawful in most countries, and certainly it would be grossly short sighted and undesirable.
There are many reasons why people in this situation do not advance further to a successful command upgrade. In some circumstances people who are perfectly able and capable in their everyday performance, simply fail to cope with the stress they feel when under an artificial testing regime. Similarly people often fail to show sufficient assertiveness when required. None of this makes the candidate any less of an individual or in most cases any less of a perfectly competent and able pilot. However if the problems cannot be sufficiently rectified, it will prove a bar to further selective advancement to the role of Captain. In some cases there is an acceptance of this and the individual is satisfied to accept their role of "career F/O." In my experience these people have the obvious advantage of being the most mature and experienced colleagues you will fly with. The wealth of experience they bring to the operation is very much a safety advantage, and they undertake all the roles of second in command with confidence and aplomb which makes for a relaxed flight or trip. Although they haven't been promoted, they understand the role of the other seat very well, and are able to be much more pro-active and understanding of what is required to make the captains job easier.
Given the different structure and consequential lifestyles that different airline operations afford, it is also going to be inevitable that some people will elect to hold themselves back from promotion for a whole gamut of lifestyle reasons. Where this does occur, it is likely to be in operations that involve structured short and long-haul flying, as well as those with a geographical diversity of bases. Despite this, most people in a competitive career will for all the obvious reasons, always aim for the earliest opportunity for progression. Not least because this may involve issues of long term seniority, pension, salary, and uncertain windows of opportunity. However as in any walk of life there will also be people who have personal issues in their own lives that they feel are more relevant and preclude the desire to advance to captain.
I have to say that I have never come across a situation where an airline would seek to terminate somebody because they either didn't want to be promoted, or because they were assessed as unsuitable for promotion. Certainly employers will normally employ those individuals who at the time of interview seem likely to advance to the role eventually. However as long as the person maintains an acceptable standard for the job they are preforming, I would have some serious doubts that any such practice was lawful in most countries, and certainly it would be grossly short sighted and undesirable.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Monaco
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
corporate captain
most of my life I have been a corporate captain, but just recently I have been right hand seat for several operators, who just needed bum in seat.
so I was a FO. I like it.
No off aircraft responsability, for answering the phone every few hours, no contacting office demanding info.
Just sit at pool side, and wait for message, depart in 2 hours.
I Love it
ssa
so I was a FO. I like it.
No off aircraft responsability, for answering the phone every few hours, no contacting office demanding info.
Just sit at pool side, and wait for message, depart in 2 hours.
I Love it
ssa
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Along radial 005
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For me it's just a matter of "comfort zone".
I've been flying for almost 30 years. I have command time from the airforce. Where I am now I have been pushed down on the seniority list by my present colleagues after a "merger".
No promotion in view yet and frankly, I don't care about it. FO on longhaul suits me perfect. My body has converted from speed to comfort. Running between aircraft, de-icing, SLOT's and 3 CATIII per day is not my bag anymore.
I have a good salary and a good life. The day I retire I get the same pension as those who are CDR's. My allowance is better so in the end it's not much of a difference there either.
Why should I change? It's better being late once a day than five times a day.
Rgds
PS Old Smokey; For me, they can excercise their command as much as they want but if they screw up, I'm not the one that will sit to the right with my armes crossed. Command is one thing, survival another.
I've been flying for almost 30 years. I have command time from the airforce. Where I am now I have been pushed down on the seniority list by my present colleagues after a "merger".
No promotion in view yet and frankly, I don't care about it. FO on longhaul suits me perfect. My body has converted from speed to comfort. Running between aircraft, de-icing, SLOT's and 3 CATIII per day is not my bag anymore.
I have a good salary and a good life. The day I retire I get the same pension as those who are CDR's. My allowance is better so in the end it's not much of a difference there either.
Why should I change? It's better being late once a day than five times a day.
Rgds
PS Old Smokey; For me, they can excercise their command as much as they want but if they screw up, I'm not the one that will sit to the right with my armes crossed. Command is one thing, survival another.
Last edited by swedflyer; 28th Jun 2009 at 15:03.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,843
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not people like you swedflyer who worry me. In fact, I think that flying with someone like yourself would be a very pleasant experience, a captain could ask for no better support in the cockpit "partnership".
The people who do worry me are the VERY SMALL NUMBER who avoid command because their own self analysis indicates an inability to command. The recent Continental Captain's death is a gentle reminder to ALL First Officers that due to circumstance, they might be called upon to be the aircraft Commander at a moment's notice.
Regards,
Old Smokey
The people who do worry me are the VERY SMALL NUMBER who avoid command because their own self analysis indicates an inability to command. The recent Continental Captain's death is a gentle reminder to ALL First Officers that due to circumstance, they might be called upon to be the aircraft Commander at a moment's notice.
Regards,
Old Smokey
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Along radial 005
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Old Smokey, then we have the same approach.
I've learned through the years that it doesn't work out well if you tell anyone how they should excercise their command but if you tell them how the crew experience them you often get a response. Maybe not verbally but they start to think.
Roger, out
swedflyer
I've learned through the years that it doesn't work out well if you tell anyone how they should excercise their command but if you tell them how the crew experience them you often get a response. Maybe not verbally but they start to think.
Roger, out
swedflyer
