P2 rating?
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P2 rating?
The company i work for is planning to send me for a rating on a medium jet to fly as FO. They have proposed that this will not be a full rating but a "reduced hours" sim session resulting in a P2 rating to enable me to fly as FO and that at some later stage, when ready, a sort of bridging sim session would be done for the upgrade to P1. The operator is ICAO, is this something that does happen and in particular in JAR land is this considered acceptable.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Any thoughts appreciated.
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That is something I read about somewhere on the web just recently (sorry, can't remeber where 
). However I remeber that the text said it was a practice used in the US.
Never heard of it being done in Europe - at the company I work for everybody (including the FOs supposed to be flying as P2) get's the same typerating, be it Captain or First Officer.
Regards,
DBate
). However I remeber that the text said it was a practice used in the US.Never heard of it being done in Europe - at the company I work for everybody (including the FOs supposed to be flying as P2) get's the same typerating, be it Captain or First Officer.
Regards,
DBate
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In europe it seems to differ depending on the local aviation authority. In germany you will get a full typerating however if you do it on the right hand seat you will get it as COP (i guess that means copilot) which prevents you from flying out of the left hand seat, for that you need another short bridge course which is usually done during your command or senior first officer training. To fly both left and right hand seat you need special training each six months so a normal captain or FO is not allowed to do that. However that might be a special german interpretation of the JAR-FCL.
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Used to happen in the UK. I started life with only a P2 rating on a B707 (admittedly with a 4 man crew) and then had it upgraded by the company (BOAC) to P1 after a couple of years or so. Happened to a whole bunch of us learning the trade on 707's and VC10's back in the 1960's and early 1970's. I think my compatriots who went to BEA were P1 rated from day 1, obviously more training involved and 3 man crew
Best part about the flying training (no certified 707-436 Sim) was sitting over Stanstead at about 15000' and stalling the old 436, not the same as a chipmunk. Don't think my mates in BEA stalled their tridents!!
Best part about the flying training (no certified 707-436 Sim) was sitting over Stanstead at about 15000' and stalling the old 436, not the same as a chipmunk. Don't think my mates in BEA stalled their tridents!!
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The "P2" rating (or co-pilot rating)
In the old days, FAA did not even endorse "co-pilot" ratings on the licence/certificate.
Training is no longer different, but I understand they now print an ICAO compliant co-pilot rating.
xxx
In the old days, FAA did not require "all maneuvers" to be performed by co-pilots.
In the 727, a F/O was not required to train for 2-ENG OUT approaches, or FLAPS UP landings.
In the 707/747, same thing, no 2 ENG OUT in training.
Co-pilot proficiency standards were slightly more lenient.
Then, on a later recurrent, if F/Os had an ATPL, they got the full type rating training, in the LH seat.
Remember, quite a few US pilots had CPL, not a ATPL at time of hire.
Many started airline flying as P3/Flight Engineer. Was my case in the 727.
On my first P3 initial training, I was requited to land the 727 all engines, VMC.
And all pilots had to demonstrate ability to operate the F/E panel.
xxx
Just curious how proficient you, fATPL 250 hrs gentlemen are proficient to pass a 737/320 captain rating.
I do not belittle you... but with 250 hrs total, must not be that easy.
Congratulations to those of you who do.
xxx
Happy contrails, and happy 2009 to all.
Training is no longer different, but I understand they now print an ICAO compliant co-pilot rating.
xxx
In the old days, FAA did not require "all maneuvers" to be performed by co-pilots.
In the 727, a F/O was not required to train for 2-ENG OUT approaches, or FLAPS UP landings.
In the 707/747, same thing, no 2 ENG OUT in training.
Co-pilot proficiency standards were slightly more lenient.
Then, on a later recurrent, if F/Os had an ATPL, they got the full type rating training, in the LH seat.
Remember, quite a few US pilots had CPL, not a ATPL at time of hire.
Many started airline flying as P3/Flight Engineer. Was my case in the 727.
On my first P3 initial training, I was requited to land the 727 all engines, VMC.
And all pilots had to demonstrate ability to operate the F/E panel.
xxx
Just curious how proficient you, fATPL 250 hrs gentlemen are proficient to pass a 737/320 captain rating.
I do not belittle you... but with 250 hrs total, must not be that easy.
Congratulations to those of you who do.
xxx
Happy contrails, and happy 2009 to all.
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Just curious how proficient you, fATPL 250 hrs gentlemen are proficient to pass a 737/320 captain rating.
. Combined with thorough preparation and studies at home prior to each session.I remeber my first rating on the A320 - had to fly all approaches with malfunctions the captain had to to (but in real life the captain is supposed to fly the approach if he deems it to be critical in any way - at least at my outfit).
Now on the MD11 it is the same thing. The First Officer must be able (and has to demonstrate it) to fly all approaches with any kind of failure. 2 engine out approaches and go arounds are a standard to be flown in every check session by both pilots. Last sim session included unrealiable airspeed, combined with an engine compressor stall and an assymetric slat extension leading to a slats up landing in one approach - to be flown by both
.Anyway, wishing everybody a great new year,
DBate
Last edited by DBate; 2nd Jan 2009 at 01:09.
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DBate -
xxx
Glad to hear you gentlemen get the whole program.
Many airlines reduced initial/recurrent training to a minimum.
Especially for recurrent training...
Two hours of warm-up, two hours as support... then a proficiency check.
xxx
Most of the years I did as instructor, was with high time proficient guys.
Could throw nasty ones at them, most of them did ok with flying colors.
As you say, with good instructor and good program, is do-able.
But try to justify one more 4 hours session in budget to the bean counters idiots.
But in all honesty, I would be lenient with a new kid on the block.
xxx
With Cargolux, I flew with F/Os on 747 with low time.
They all did great. And they learned fast.
Rest of the time, I had guys out of the 727-737. Was easier.
And never hesitated to pass along the tricks of the trade.
That is what beers are for, after the sim session or flight.
xxx
All the best to you.
Happy contrails
xxx
Glad to hear you gentlemen get the whole program.
Many airlines reduced initial/recurrent training to a minimum.
Especially for recurrent training...
Two hours of warm-up, two hours as support... then a proficiency check.
xxx
Most of the years I did as instructor, was with high time proficient guys.
Could throw nasty ones at them, most of them did ok with flying colors.
As you say, with good instructor and good program, is do-able.
But try to justify one more 4 hours session in budget to the bean counters idiots.
But in all honesty, I would be lenient with a new kid on the block.
xxx
With Cargolux, I flew with F/Os on 747 with low time.
They all did great. And they learned fast.
Rest of the time, I had guys out of the 727-737. Was easier.
And never hesitated to pass along the tricks of the trade.
That is what beers are for, after the sim session or flight.
xxx
All the best to you.
Happy contrails
