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Only Captains handle throttles during T/O??

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Only Captains handle throttles during T/O??

Old 28th Nov 2008, 04:39
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Only Captains handle throttles during T/O??

Hey all,

Iv noticed that some airline SOPs state that the Captain handles the throttles on takeoff in both PF and PNF roles, some examples being Singapore Airlines (B777 fleet), Lufthansa (A340 & B747-4 fleet), LTU (A330 fleet). There maybe more fleets within these airlines where this SOP is used but iv only noted these so far.

I appreciate that these are large widebody jets but surely the FO (First Officer) can set the T/O power and then the Captain can replace the FOs hand during the takeoff roll incase of a RTO, giving him the ultimate decision whether to reject or not.

Bearing in mind that the old days of actually setting the power was done manually against analog gauges I can understand why it would be best if the PNF sets the power while the PF concentrates on keeping directional control. However with all the automatics these days the computers set the final power setting against what was programmed into the FMS be it flex (de-rate) or full power. So nowadays it simply means you just place the throttles into the 'detent' for Airbus or Boeing press the TOGA switches on the throttles once you stabilise the engines. Both systems automatically sets the required EPR or N1%. PNF can then confirm that T/O power is set as usual.

I guess deep down it boils down to this; with all the automation that dominates our jobs as pilots it would be nice if given the things that we can do, we as FOs can actually operate. I would be interested to know the views from FOs, does it bother you or could you simply not care as long as the T/O power is set?! Also do some Captains allow you to set the T/O power despite the SOP?

Considering that getting a command on a widebody jet will take some years thats not much action for your left hand with those throttles! Mind you siting on the left seat you still wont get anymore apart from taxing, but you know what I'm getting at! Now go easy on that comment before we get the now all too common pprune bashing for the first 2 pages of the thread before a serious comment related to the original Q is posted... relax its just a forum!

Take for example the PF and PNF roles regarding taxi, some airlines allow their FOs to taxi the aircraft (given that the aircraft they order are supplied with tillers on the right) if they are PF with the possible exception of parking on stand. I find that a very positive move, after all your molding them to be Captains one day.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

AkA.
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Old 28th Nov 2008, 05:05
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Present company (and most of the past ones, as well), when the First Officer is flying, he...or she sets the approximate takeoff thrust, the Flight Engineer makes a final trim, then the Commander has his hand on the go-levers until V1 is attained.
Types, L1011 and B707.

Seems entirely reasonable to me, and in fact, give a new First Officer a feel for un-even engine spool up times, with some designs.

At some companies, Senior First Officers are allowed to keep their hand on the go-levers until V1, as these folks have good experience on type.
Also, seems entirely reasonable to me.
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Old 28th Nov 2008, 11:46
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In my company (Airbus operator) when they are PF, the F/O's start the engines, taxi's out and sets the thrust levers in the required takeoff gate at the beginning of the takeoff roll. Captain always covers the levers until V1 and then it's the F/O's levers until the aircraft lands and taxi's in when the Captain takes over to park the 'bus on the gate.If conditions permit the F/O can even take out the automatics and (shock, horror) fly an approach with manual thrust. This is SOP for twin aisle and single aisle aircraft.

Last edited by K.Whyjelly; 28th Nov 2008 at 15:08.
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Old 28th Nov 2008, 11:57
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In our airline on the F/O's sector there is a complete role reversal (i.e. engine start, taxy, take-off, etc...) with the exception that the Captain will take the thrust levers once take-off thrust is set up until V1, and that the Captain will park the aircraft on stands with a guidance system specifically aligned with the LHS (or of course whenever he/she sees fit).

This applies to the Airbus, Captains must taxy and park the Boeing on all sectors as there is no RHS steering tiller.

I would be interested to know the views from FOs, does it bother you or could you simply not care as long as the T/O power is set?!
In our airline it's nothing to do with actually setting the t/o power as such, in an Airbus any fool can put the thrust levers in the FLEX or TOGA detent, and as F/Os we are trusted to do that on our takeoff. The reason for the Captain to have his hands on the thrust levers once thrust is set, as 411A alluded to, surrounds the stop / go decision which in our airline can only be made by the Captain unless he/she becomes incapacitated. The Captain will also take control for the stop, again with the exception of an incapacitation.

At some airlines operating the Airbus the F/O will keep his/her hands on the thrust levers up to V1 on the take-off, I believe BA is one such operator. Usually in these airlines either pilot can call stop before V1 on the t/o and PF will carry out the stop actions.

At other airlines F/Os cannot taxi even with a RHS steering tiller installed, which is a strange procedure IMO given that control needs to be handed over at relatively critical flight phases.

So in summary almost every airline does it slightly differently, for their own reasons.
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 09:47
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Throttles on Take-Off

A long time ago, on the L382 Hercules, the Flight Engineer used to set and control the throttles during Take-Off. The Principal Flight Operations Inspector for the Company stopped that practice and the responsibilty reverted to the Captain, as he had the legal duty for safe operation of the Aircraft.


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Old 29th Nov 2008, 09:54
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A lot of airlines leave the decision to reject a take-off solely with the captain, which is another reason why the skipper's hand is on the throttles and not the FO's.
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Old 29th Nov 2008, 11:49
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B737 fleet, F/O places start-switches in GND, Captain selects start levers to IDLE, otherwise Captain on ground always PF, for take-off PF sets T/Ls to > 40% and presses TOGA and asks for SET T/O THRUST, Captain has T/Ls for possible rejection.
Safe and logic.
 
Old 30th Nov 2008, 21:07
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It is the same on SAAB340. F/O only flips the CTOT switches, regardless of pilot duty.
EMB120 was somewhat different, where PF set 'initial TO power' after which CPT put his hand on the power levers.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 00:59
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A long time ago, on the L382 Hercules, the Flight Engineer used to set and control the throttles during Take-Off.
That was always our procedure in the C-130. The pilot flying would set approximate thrust and call for the setting, and the FE would set it and maintain it. Presently we do the same in the 747. If the FO is flying, he stands the thrust levers up, waits for it to stabilize about 1.1 EPR, then advances the thrust levers. At that point he calls for reduced or maximum thrust, and removes his hand. The Captain places his hand on the top of the thrust levers, and the engineer works them from the engineer handle of the thrust levers.

If the captain is the pilot flying, he does the same thing and the FO never touches them.

In the even of a rejected takeoff, the captain performs the rejected takeoff.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 16:38
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This comes up regularly here ( just like how to spell "definitely" )

The "BA way" is to allow complete role reversal, thus all co-pilots handle their own power levers for take-off - and can call stop if required.
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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 10:01
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Originally Posted by ETOPS
The "BA way" is to allow complete role reversal ...
Just like the early days when - as I recollect - Flight Engineers could dance backwards ...


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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 23:44
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As ETOPS wrote:

"The "BA way" is to allow complete role reversal, thus all co-pilots handle their own power levers for take-off - and can call stop if required."

I guess that takes care of the take-offs, but they handle the landings thus:

Pilots will now be called, Handling Pilot, Non-handling Pilot, Handling Landing Pilot, Non-Handling Landing Pilot, Handling Non-Landing Pilot, and Non Handling Non-Landing Pilot.

The Landing Pilot, is initially the Handling Pilot and will handle the take-off and landing except in role reversal when he is the Non-Handling Pilot for taxi until the Handling Non-Landing Pilot, hands the handling to the Landing Pilot at eighty knots.

The Non-Landing (Non-Handling, since the Landing Pilot is handling) Pilot reads the checklist to the Handling Pilot until after Before Descent Checklist completion, when the Handling Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Non-Handling Non-Landing Pilot who then becomes the Handling Non-Landing Pilot.

The Landing Pilot is the Non-Handling Pilot until the decision altitude call, when the Handling Non-Landing Pilot hands the handling to the Non-Handling Landing Pilot, unless the latter calls "go-around", in which case the Handling Non-Landing Pilot, continues Handling and the Non-Handling Landing Pilot continues non-handling until the next call of land / or "go-around", as appropriate.
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Old 3rd Dec 2008, 04:21
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Usually the F/O will progress into the left seat at some point in time. So, there is no hurry for any anxious F/O, wannabe captain, to assume critical captain tasks [RTOs] without in turn having complete responsibility for his/her actions. The captain will bear full responsibility for any F/O initiated RTO or taxiing snafu.
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 19:17
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Thanks for the responses! Its been interesting to hear your views and individual ways that your airlines operate.

I would be interested to hear the views of those FOs who work for airlines that do not allow them to touch the throttles during the takeoff (Captain has completely use and control of the throttles during takeoff in both PF and PNF roles) i.e FOs don't even get to set the power. Such as Singapore airlines fleet on the B777.

Does it bother you at all?

AkA.
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 20:41
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I think only ATPL's should touch them otherwwise with the way civilian training [I'm not military]---that is the lowest qualification for such a deicsion---and I mean a real ATP who ACTs like an ATP can do it---but too many pilots, too many levels,
so perhaps it best but a typical CPL NO!!
A good Ex Seneca perhaps,...An ex Lear 23 man definately ---but it is captain's discretion, but of course only in the best of situations with many limitation---because remember whose butt is on the line [everybody's]

and remember who shoulders all the guilt [dead or alive]

The CAPTAIN

that word [captain] is not an evil, bigoted anachronism that paints all Co-pilots with the same stroke as a concept, but rather, captain, signifies that of someone with the weight of all the world upon him and airwise, all the world signifies the ship and it's environment and all contents therein that may be damaged by its mishandling--including YOU!!!

Remember that!
PA
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 21:24
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How does holding an ATP make one any more qualified than holding a commercial certificate?

The letters on the certification have no bearing on the capability of the individual. I know ATP holders with whom I would not let my dog fly, and private pilots with whom I'd let my family fly.

The certification level of the operator isn't really relevant to the policy established regarding who rejects a takeoff.
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 21:36
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SNS3Guppy,

I use very careful phrasing, and remain measured and balanced because, I realize live are at stake---

Notice, I carefully included the qualifier REAL ATP--I mean at the standards to the letter/ and spirit of of the law who excercises that judgement to the requisite in holding that certificate--Do All captains BTW?

but too many pilots, too many levels,
so perhaps it best
meaning perhaps the more conservative view should prevail but some companies do it differently---who am I to really judge?---either side of the FD--

How does this change an individual operators sops? it doesn't ---you take what you get--

Pugilistic Animus

Last edited by Pugilistic Animus; 10th Dec 2008 at 21:38. Reason: answer the question posed--
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Old 10th Dec 2008, 22:06
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Hey guys,

Just to make it clear, the thread is not about the decision to RTO. Seems its getting sidetracked to people posting why the captain should have his/her hands on the throttles over the FOs. It is soley to do with FOs views on certain airline SOPs which require the captain to set takeoff power.

Whether the captain has the final hand on the throttles after the power is set is not the point here... I completely understand why that is done, and agree to it, especially on widebody aircraft. Instead this particular thread is targeted at FOs and there personal views on the matter of captains only setting takeoff power in both PNF and PF roles.

Thank You.
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Old 11th Dec 2008, 21:34
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On the B200, as copilot, when PF, i spool up engines to max prop rpm with my hand on the back side of the throttles, then ask for "set max power", captain sets max torque and replies "max power set". That is my cue to remove my hand, he now manages power until climb power is set, including RTO.

When PNF, he spools the engine up to max prop rpm and then calls "set max power". I set max torque AND keep guarding the power levers until after climb power is set. Captain has his hand on top of the power levers until rotation, and only he can (normally) call stop.
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Old 13th Dec 2008, 02:46
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The "BA way" is to allow complete role reversal, thus all co-pilots handle their own power levers for take-off - and can call stop if required.
. . . And the captain will be relieved of blame when a 300hrs copilot decides to stop and initiate the RTO...?
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