AERAD Charts - What is happening
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Less of a problem for you professional chappies who have librarians or whatever providing chart books for your aircraft but we humble amateurs (PPL/IR in my case) have to do our own updating and filing. Under the old format the page numbers were big and bold and in the top right hand corner of the page. Now the page number is in microscopic print in the top centre. Which means I definitely need my reading glasses, but worse I have to open each page almost completely to see the page number when searching for the page to replace. Net result will, I know, be an increase in the time spent updating the things.
And wouldn't it be most helpful if the update list said something like "Replace all" when say Amsterdam was being updated in it's entirety? Then I wouldn't have to go through each of the 50 odd individual pages checking whether it needed pulling and replacing....
And wouldn't it be most helpful if the update list said something like "Replace all" when say Amsterdam was being updated in it's entirety? Then I wouldn't have to go through each of the 50 odd individual pages checking whether it needed pulling and replacing....
Join Date: Oct 2000
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These plates are a total shambles. They are cluttered, the font is too fine, they dont flow or present the information in a way that is easily readable. Have they had any pilot input to put these together?
I've only used the new charts a few times so I'm not really used to them yet. There seem to be areas of improvement: pretty much everything is drawn to scale and not distorted to fit on the page as it was before, plus I'm finding the taxi/stand charting a bit easier to read. On the downside, I agree that the fonts are small and spidery and lines seem to have been drawn to minimise ink usage rather than maximise clarity. The page numbering system is taking a bit of getting used to as well.
It probably looks nice on a stationary desk under good lighting but on a dark and sh***y night there are too many opportunities for misinterpretation. On the whole, I think the improvements are cancelled out by the new design flaws, leaving you wondering why they bothered...
It probably looks nice on a stationary desk under good lighting but on a dark and sh***y night there are too many opportunities for misinterpretation. On the whole, I think the improvements are cancelled out by the new design flaws, leaving you wondering why they bothered...
Join Date: May 2004
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Read all the above carefully ,agree with most, but my main point is that this amendment doesn't cover Cat A aircraft. That includes all PPL IR aircraft, light twins, single engine turbo props and most helicopters. It also doesn't give QFE but that is no great loss.
Cat A as I understand, is a Vat of 91kts or less, please correct me if I'm wrong, the definition is from an old Pan Ops book!
Re the point on JAR or EU ops minima, there are differences and I wonder how that varies from CAA issued approach plates or Jeppesen?
As I posted on the instructors forum I have just bought a set of touring UK AERADs and I personally will have to swap these for Jepps on the basis that they are unusable for what all of the above had to do at one time, ie learn basic instrument flying for the IMC/IR
Cat A as I understand, is a Vat of 91kts or less, please correct me if I'm wrong, the definition is from an old Pan Ops book!
Re the point on JAR or EU ops minima, there are differences and I wonder how that varies from CAA issued approach plates or Jeppesen?
As I posted on the instructors forum I have just bought a set of touring UK AERADs and I personally will have to swap these for Jepps on the basis that they are unusable for what all of the above had to do at one time, ie learn basic instrument flying for the IMC/IR
Join Date: Jun 2001
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And another thing. Holding Patterns do not have the AERAD style entry segments. OK if your FMS does your hold for you but even more brain cells used if you do not have that luxury.
Also, DH (MDH) is given. That means QFE is set if that is the minima you use. However on the Advisory Alt / DME distance box only ALT is given. (Unlike the State Charts of at least France and the UK where Height and Alt is given)
Also, DH (MDH) is given. That means QFE is set if that is the minima you use. However on the Advisory Alt / DME distance box only ALT is given. (Unlike the State Charts of at least France and the UK where Height and Alt is given)
Last edited by beerdrinker; 11th Aug 2008 at 10:13.
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Join Date: Aug 2008
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Hi Gents
Many thanks for your constructive comments although as usual some have tried to turn it into Aerad v Jeppesen debate.
Over the years i have had my fair share of Jeppesen and they owt no better. In fact i could say alot worse!
In all truth my Ops Support department helped me out and supplied me with the correct docs. They apparently had been sent the legend but it didn't find its way to me in time, so i hold my hand up.
I'm now enjoying updating my knowledge of the plates, just like all those years before.
I for one have phoned these guys at Walton on Thames and got the story first hand.
-yes they've had to change the specification due to policies, EU OPS but it isn't the real reason. Its called change to us oldies.
-yes i have been a fan of aerad over the many years and it's sad to see it go.
-economies of scale i think they call it.
-the charts will take a while to get used but i'm all for progress.
-the future sounds bright as long as they follow through with what they say and i have every hope for them. We need a serious competitor to Jeppesen who won't overcharge you
sorry, enough said!
-at least there is a company who is willing to listen to you and these guys are looking to give us what we want.
As someone said earlier ask a 1000 pilots a question, get 2000 replies. It couldn't be more close to the truth but at least we're being listened to.
- it will take me a while to comprehend the changes but at least i'm ahead of the game now and know what's going on.
- i'm sure Navtech/EAG will get it right but they're never going to please everyone but at least we can let them know be it through this forum or by good old fashion communication, telephone.
Thanks gents and happy hours.
P.S. Did anyone see those cheap Jeppesen Supplement books they brought out last year in pretty colours. Enough Said
Many thanks for your constructive comments although as usual some have tried to turn it into Aerad v Jeppesen debate.
Over the years i have had my fair share of Jeppesen and they owt no better. In fact i could say alot worse!
In all truth my Ops Support department helped me out and supplied me with the correct docs. They apparently had been sent the legend but it didn't find its way to me in time, so i hold my hand up.
I'm now enjoying updating my knowledge of the plates, just like all those years before.
I for one have phoned these guys at Walton on Thames and got the story first hand.
-yes they've had to change the specification due to policies, EU OPS but it isn't the real reason. Its called change to us oldies.
-yes i have been a fan of aerad over the many years and it's sad to see it go.
-economies of scale i think they call it.
-the charts will take a while to get used but i'm all for progress.
-the future sounds bright as long as they follow through with what they say and i have every hope for them. We need a serious competitor to Jeppesen who won't overcharge you
sorry, enough said!-at least there is a company who is willing to listen to you and these guys are looking to give us what we want.
As someone said earlier ask a 1000 pilots a question, get 2000 replies. It couldn't be more close to the truth but at least we're being listened to.- it will take me a while to comprehend the changes but at least i'm ahead of the game now and know what's going on.
- i'm sure Navtech/EAG will get it right but they're never going to please everyone but at least we can let them know be it through this forum or by good old fashion communication, telephone.
Thanks gents and happy hours.
P.S. Did anyone see those cheap Jeppesen Supplement books they brought out last year in pretty colours. Enough Said
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Change I can deal with, if it is competent, but take a look at the airfield layout map of Aberdeen for example. According to the new chart there are two 32H runways which are almost at right angles to each other and the runway QDMs for most of the heli runways are completely wrong. I pity anyone not familiar with the place trying to navigate by this chart and can't understand why it hasn't being withdrawn yet.
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OFP
Many thanks for your constructive comments although as usual some have tried to turn it into Aerad v Jeppesen debate.
Over the years i have had my fair share of Jeppesen and they owt no better. In fact i could say alot worse!
Over the years i have had my fair share of Jeppesen and they owt no better. In fact i could say alot worse!
We need a serious competitor to Jeppesen who won't overcharge you sorry, enough said!
sorry, enough said!
Did anyone see those cheap Jeppesen Supplement books they brought out last year in pretty colours. Enough Said
Join Date: Jan 2003
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I'm also missing the CAT A plates
If they are availabel on request, why aren't they there by default for the Uk Touring guide which is I would suspect geared towards the smaller UKGA aircraft operators.
May be I'm just gettign old and don't like change but I really prefer the older style, they just seem so clear , you know exactly where to look for the information you require, nice bold fonts used where necessary. Very consise.
If they are availabel on request, why aren't they there by default for the Uk Touring guide which is I would suspect geared towards the smaller UKGA aircraft operators.
May be I'm just gettign old and don't like change but I really prefer the older style, they just seem so clear , you know exactly where to look for the information you require, nice bold fonts used where necessary. Very consise.
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Well I don't fly any more, but I'm shocked to read this thread. It seems to me that these new charts are very liable to cause accidents...Flying into high ground type accidents. And from what you have all said here I would expect it to happen soon.
There must be some way of having these charts withdrawn until some standardisation is made...Preferably before loss of life
There must be some way of having these charts withdrawn until some standardisation is made...Preferably before loss of life
Join Date: May 2006
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OFP,
I'm still getting old, happy to embrace change for the better, have learned a few things in recent years from the "youngsters" in the way that their skills have been taught in the 21st century and have adopted a few of them myself as they were better than the way my experience has had me operate.
That, my friend, is changing with the times and being open to them. However, I know over time I will have to get used to the new plates but I really do feel that I am at a disadvantage as I really cannot see at the moment where the benefit is.
I am happy to move with the times for the better but this is, in my humble opinion and speaking purely for myself, not one that I am likely to embrace that willingly.
I'm still getting old, happy to embrace change for the better, have learned a few things in recent years from the "youngsters" in the way that their skills have been taught in the 21st century and have adopted a few of them myself as they were better than the way my experience has had me operate.
That, my friend, is changing with the times and being open to them. However, I know over time I will have to get used to the new plates but I really do feel that I am at a disadvantage as I really cannot see at the moment where the benefit is.
I am happy to move with the times for the better but this is, in my humble opinion and speaking purely for myself, not one that I am likely to embrace that willingly.
Join Date: May 2008
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I want to know who the guy was that finished this new format, sat back and said,
Quote:
...well, i'm pleased with that. That's much better.
Quote:
...well, i'm pleased with that. That's much better.
I suppose the relevant question to ask is did anyone consult the users (ie the pilots) concerning these proposed changes? If not, I would not be very impressed. Whatever happened to the concept of customer service?
Join Date: May 2004
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Another thought and harking back to an approach and runway previously very familiar to me. Imagine being told that the glideslope is U/S and this will be a LLZ/DME approach to LGW 26L. Old plate Cat B, C and D limit 700' 1200ms, new plate 700' 1500ms. Which do you apply and what is the ATC approach ban limit ,prior to a possible MOR?
And I agree with the comment re the hold entry deliniation, many flights can be single pilot/IFR and we need all the help available.
And I agree with the comment re the hold entry deliniation, many flights can be single pilot/IFR and we need all the help available.
Join Date: Jul 2000
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Having started with Jepp, used it for some years, then AERAD, back to Jepp and now recently LIDO I have to say that the old AERAD booklets were far and away the simplest, easiest plates to use...
Why change something that 'aint broken?
Why change something that 'aint broken?
Join Date: Jun 1999
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Seething
I have now "lived" with these charts for a couple of weeks.
They don't get better, they make me angry and therefore we have stopped briefing the nonsense.
Just set up for what we already know, full stop.
They don't give you the track to fly anymore on a SID, they give you the radial you're on, in other words the reciprocal number from what you NEED.
The EDI 24 departure is not even giving you a track, or a radial.
In a hurry I will probably die.
This surely MUST BE ILLEGAL.
Why the hell do Nav Aids look like waypoints?
Who the hell are this morons, why have they been allowed to get away with this. Corruption galore, as there must be money involved to get THIS stupid.
If I flew to the equivalent standard as these charts are, there'd be thousands of dead people behind me.
Aviation is the most unintelligent profession I have ever been involved with! We seem to learn from accidents/incidents and then just stupidly change the positives into negatives again!
Not too long now, you all can have my world soon....................!!!!!!
They don't get better, they make me angry and therefore we have stopped briefing the nonsense.
Just set up for what we already know, full stop.
They don't give you the track to fly anymore on a SID, they give you the radial you're on, in other words the reciprocal number from what you NEED.
The EDI 24 departure is not even giving you a track, or a radial.
In a hurry I will probably die.
This surely MUST BE ILLEGAL.
Why the hell do Nav Aids look like waypoints?
Who the hell are this morons, why have they been allowed to get away with this. Corruption galore, as there must be money involved to get THIS stupid.
If I flew to the equivalent standard as these charts are, there'd be thousands of dead people behind me.
Aviation is the most unintelligent profession I have ever been involved with! We seem to learn from accidents/incidents and then just stupidly change the positives into negatives again!
Not too long now, you all can have my world soon....................!!!!!!