PF/PNF who's in command ?
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: The Woodlands
PF/PNF who's in command ?
I will be transitioning from the Boeing to Aibus later next month, as well as companies.
From what I gather, as per Aibus and company SOP, the PF(FO for this example) calls for check list and such during ground operations. This appears to be a bizzare practice to me; or is it more or less handled just like ops during flight.
Please shed some light on the ryme and reason on this practice.
Flame away
From what I gather, as per Aibus and company SOP, the PF(FO for this example) calls for check list and such during ground operations. This appears to be a bizzare practice to me; or is it more or less handled just like ops during flight.
Please shed some light on the ryme and reason on this practice.
Flame away
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: The Woodlands
No confusion in that department of who is in overall command, but once again I find it strange to have my FO calling for checks during ground ops.
For example is it not up to the captain when it is safe and proper to push and call for engine start and taxi. I am of the school that the command pilot sets the tone and pace of action in the pit, or is it my unfamilality with this procedure reading and to much into it.
Please help this old Boeing dog learn a new trick.
For example is it not up to the captain when it is safe and proper to push and call for engine start and taxi. I am of the school that the command pilot sets the tone and pace of action in the pit, or is it my unfamilality with this procedure reading and to much into it.
Please help this old Boeing dog learn a new trick.
Last edited by jimmyg; 20th September 2007 at 19:40.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Moved beyond
I guess different airlines have different policies, but where I work the PF calls the shots, including ALL the checklists, regardless of whether it's an Airbus or a Boeing. Obviously the commander has overriding authority if he or she isn't happy. The emphasis is on allowing FO's to run the show (as much as possible) when they're PF to help prepare them for command.
If the commander doesn't have the ability to allow the FO to run with things and recognise when it's necessary to intervene, perhaps he or she shouldn't be there!
If the commander doesn't have the ability to allow the FO to run with things and recognise when it's necessary to intervene, perhaps he or she shouldn't be there!
Joined: May 2004
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From: USA
With my company, the PF will tell the PNF to request push and start, if the PNF does not feel it is safe or appropriate (could be capt or FO) then he will say so. Same with taxi, PF will direct the PNF to call for taxi after the after start flows and checklist. If it is not safe either pilot or ATC can say it is not safe.
The FO taxiing may take some getting used to for you as well.
The FO taxiing may take some getting used to for you as well.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Switzerland, Singapore
jimmyg, you come from a company where the SOPs are still very concentrated around the commander.
Newest SOPs are different. The PF is always doing *everything*, and as long as the FO is doing everything in an acceptable manner, the CMD will not interfere. AI (Airbus Industries) has so far implemented the most complete SOPs in this way. So if you are becoming to be trained according AI SOPs, the FO does everything.
Your confusion about checklists on ground may come from the fact that in older SOPs, only the CMD started engines, taxied and took off. This is no longer the case.
You will be surprised how well it works (if your CMDs cooperate). CRM is on a much higher level, your hours on the right seat are a real training for your upgrading. Enjoy it!
Dani
Newest SOPs are different. The PF is always doing *everything*, and as long as the FO is doing everything in an acceptable manner, the CMD will not interfere. AI (Airbus Industries) has so far implemented the most complete SOPs in this way. So if you are becoming to be trained according AI SOPs, the FO does everything.
Your confusion about checklists on ground may come from the fact that in older SOPs, only the CMD started engines, taxied and took off. This is no longer the case.
You will be surprised how well it works (if your CMDs cooperate). CRM is on a much higher level, your hours on the right seat are a real training for your upgrading. Enjoy it!
Dani
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2007
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From: The Woodlands
Yes, quite a change for me after 15 plus years with a major US airline.
I am all for having my partner think as if they are sitting in my seat and I hope they will not take my word as gospel and query me, as I make my share of mistakes. What I am looking for is there must be a clear definition of this practice other than to just help prepare FO's for command.
It appears that my new organization my be hiring low hour FO's and I find it hard to digest that a NG (new guy) will be attempting to run the show.
I am looking foward the new changes. It will just take some adjustments
I am all for having my partner think as if they are sitting in my seat and I hope they will not take my word as gospel and query me, as I make my share of mistakes. What I am looking for is there must be a clear definition of this practice other than to just help prepare FO's for command.
It appears that my new organization my be hiring low hour FO's and I find it hard to digest that a NG (new guy) will be attempting to run the show.
I am looking foward the new changes. It will just take some adjustments
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: Arizona USA
It appears that my new organization may be hiring low hour FO's and I find it hard to digest that a NG (new guy) will be attempting to run the show.
Any Commander who allows NG's to run anything is just asking for trouble.
Now, when they have sufficient experience under their belt, perhaps a different story.
Say, at least a few hundred good solid hours.
Nothing less will do, and to do otherwise is foolishness in the extreme.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Moved beyond
What I am looking for is there must be a clear definition of this practice other than to just help prepare FO's for command.
"The FO, when pilot flying, performs the duties listed under PF and the Capt performs those duties listed under PNF. A small number of items in the procedures require specific Capt or FO action or response and are annotated C,F on the particular item in the flow pattern or checklist. The Commander, however, retains final authority for all actions directed and performed.
The FCOM then clearly states the PF/PNF duties for each phase of flight.
Last edited by BuzzBox; 20th September 2007 at 06:13.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Switzerland, Singapore
Originally posted by 411A:
New guys never ever 'run the show'.
New guys never ever 'run the show'.
You obviously never ever have been part of a team in a company sharing NPs (New Procedures). In fact, the FO really runs the show. If he's wise, he still asks for hints in an unusual situation where experience is required (pax treatment, system knowledge, weather avoidance aso). Other than that, he just does what he learned in the simulator: Fly the aircraft from pushing back to stopping the engines.
The big advantages for CMDs with FOs 'running the show' is that he can really concentrate on the tasks he is superiour to his mate: Overview, safety backup, long term planning, situational awareness, correcting if necessary.
Dani
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: USA
Not really....
As per Airbus SOP, the captain is always CM1 on the ground.
Individual company SOPs may vary...and, of course, take priority.
At my company, the captain is always CM1 anytime the aircraft is on the ground....same as Airbus SOP.
So, with the PF being CM1 when the aircraft is on the ground, how do you handle RTOs and Emergency Evacs? Does the F/O (when he/she is PF) handle the thrust levers during takeoff? Does the F/O when he/she is CM1 (PF) act accordingly during the exection of the Emergency Evac checklist?
Where I work, the first officers are VERY experienced. However, the captain is always CM1 when the aircraft is on the ground. This is no reflection on anyone's abilities...just clearly delineated areas of responsibilities...no changes in that depending whose leg it is...except for inflight during 'normal' operations.
Again, no reflection on abilities, etc.
PantLoad
Individual company SOPs may vary...and, of course, take priority.
At my company, the captain is always CM1 anytime the aircraft is on the ground....same as Airbus SOP.
So, with the PF being CM1 when the aircraft is on the ground, how do you handle RTOs and Emergency Evacs? Does the F/O (when he/she is PF) handle the thrust levers during takeoff? Does the F/O when he/she is CM1 (PF) act accordingly during the exection of the Emergency Evac checklist?
Where I work, the first officers are VERY experienced. However, the captain is always CM1 when the aircraft is on the ground. This is no reflection on anyone's abilities...just clearly delineated areas of responsibilities...no changes in that depending whose leg it is...except for inflight during 'normal' operations.
Again, no reflection on abilities, etc.
PantLoad
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Moved beyond
So, with the PF being CM1 when the aircraft is on the ground, how do you handle RTOs and Emergency Evacs? Does the F/O (when he/she is PF) handle the thrust levers during takeoff? Does the F/O when he/she is CM1 (PF) act accordingly during the exection of the Emergency Evac checklist?
No. At my company the Capt handles the thrust levers, and the Capt makes the 'STOP' decision.
2. Does the F/O when he/she is CM1 (PF) act accordingly during the exection of the Emergency Evac checklist?
No. The duties in our Passenger Evacuation checklist are clearly defined as Capt or FO. The Capt orders the evacuation, assuming he is able.
Other companies may use different procedures.
Last edited by BuzzBox; 20th September 2007 at 08:38.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
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From: UK
Originally Posted by BuzzBox
1. Does the F/O (when he/she is PF) handle the thrust levers during takeoff?
No. The Capt handles the thrust levers, and the Capt makes the 'STOP' decision.
No. The Capt handles the thrust levers, and the Capt makes the 'STOP' decision.
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Moved beyond
- not so. Depends on airline SOPs.
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: UK
In my company the FO runs the show when it is thier PF sector, this includes calling for cx lists/eng stat/push, taxing, handling thrust levers (making stop decision if required) etc.
This works well and really engenders a good flight deck environment (CRM).
Clearly N. American airlines are MILES behind in terms of modern and enlightend SOP. As to only letting the (experienced) FO handle the aircraft in flight and normal ops- dreadful. When there is an emergency is an excellent time to hand the aircraft to the FO, (s)he will no doubt handle as well as the Capt and this frees up the Capts capacity to deal with and manage the emergency.
Just because the current captains had to go through their time as Flaps Operators does not mean it is the best system or that everybody else should go through it!
This works well and really engenders a good flight deck environment (CRM).
Clearly N. American airlines are MILES behind in terms of modern and enlightend SOP. As to only letting the (experienced) FO handle the aircraft in flight and normal ops- dreadful. When there is an emergency is an excellent time to hand the aircraft to the FO, (s)he will no doubt handle as well as the Capt and this frees up the Capts capacity to deal with and manage the emergency.
Just because the current captains had to go through their time as Flaps Operators does not mean it is the best system or that everybody else should go through it!
PPRuNe supporter
Joined: Dec 2003
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From: Planet Earth
Cripes, flamed already! I guess I didn't make myself clear. I was referring to the procedures in use at my company. Previous post edited to reflect the same.
Joined: Nov 1998
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From: netherlands
Dani
"Your confusion about checklists on ground may come from the fact that in older SOPs, only the CMD started engines, taxied and took off. This is no longer the case."
Funny this,
After 20 years of PF doing everything (F/O doing starts , rejected take offs, you name it), we just changed back to the Boeing way of doing things. This is: Captain starts engines , calls for on block checklists, rejects take off etc.
This is met with considerable resistance in one particular division, and silent acceptance in others.
It all boils down to Company SOP's, and they may be considerably different from factory SOP's. They all work, just go with the flow.
"Your confusion about checklists on ground may come from the fact that in older SOPs, only the CMD started engines, taxied and took off. This is no longer the case."
Funny this,
After 20 years of PF doing everything (F/O doing starts , rejected take offs, you name it), we just changed back to the Boeing way of doing things. This is: Captain starts engines , calls for on block checklists, rejects take off etc.
This is met with considerable resistance in one particular division, and silent acceptance in others.
It all boils down to Company SOP's, and they may be considerably different from factory SOP's. They all work, just go with the flow.
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 8,571
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From: Arizona USA
I shouldn't be too concerned, jimmyg....
First Officers (brand new or well experienced) generally do as they are told when the chips are down, and if for some strange reason they do not, it really is quite simple to keep them headed in the right direction...just make sure that you, as the Commander, keep them PNF for as long as it takes for them to get the message.
Works every time.
Of course, they might go to the fleet manager an complain, but it has been my experience (as I'm sure it is with your good self) that these complaints generally fall on deaf ears.
First Officers (brand new or well experienced) generally do as they are told when the chips are down, and if for some strange reason they do not, it really is quite simple to keep them headed in the right direction...just make sure that you, as the Commander, keep them PNF for as long as it takes for them to get the message.
Works every time.
Of course, they might go to the fleet manager an complain, but it has been my experience (as I'm sure it is with your good self) that these complaints generally fall on deaf ears.
Joined: Feb 1998
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From: Formerly of Nam
Does the F/O when he/she is CM1 (PF)....
Does the CM1 when he/she is PNF...
Does the CM1 when he/she is PNF...
out a bloodey memo in the cockpit to remind meself who
the hell is who doin what!
Anyway I done Tooloose recentley so dont say I dont know
nuthin.Apart from re-inventing the aviation wheel a la
Frog, Airbooz dont distinguish a 200hr CM2 (thats FO in
normal aviation talk) from a 2000 hr one. So a 200 hr kid
can dictate to a 10000 hour captain and dob him in for
"lack of CRM" if the captain cant be bothered teaching him
the basic airmanship and pilotage techniques he shud
allready bloodey know to stay alive. The 23yo stuckup Frog
I had as sim-partner proved that.
And heaven help any skipper if he takes the stick away
from the FO (sorry, le CM2) if his judgement deems it
necesary to stay in one piece - Le horreurs! Le captain
infant terrible! (or somethin like it). I thought I was gunna
be taken out to a tumbril and guillo'd after a sesh where
Le Ace was about to prang the sim.
Im starting to think this damn A320 endorsment was a
huge mistake.
Anyway PF means "Driver operating the FMCG", and PNF is
the bloke doing the paperwork. Simple as that realy.
PS what got up Airbooz's nose is my refusal to call myself
a "CM1 PF" - Im a CAPTAIN whose PILOTING, mon-sewer!
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From: Back home
411A, I am sure you must be having a laugh with everybody here, because i cannot believe that someone would have the affront to make comments on a website that is full of T.C.'s, Capt's, and F/O's of all different levels of experience, like you do.
I look at what you write and quite frankly feel desperately sorry for you, because people like you are generally looked upon as a giant pain who it is really not worth saying anything to, or even flying a sector with, and certainly not being with "when the chips are down". I am glad i never came accross anyone like you when i was new, because the Capts i flew with were big promoters of giving you the show right from day 1, be it checklists (S.O.P.'s anyway), ops, cabin crew whatever, and where more than happy to help out when you needed it or asked for it, and this was on a B757. Stood us all in good stead for the future.
In fact i look at the way you write your threads and your thinking is so backwards that i would be surprised if you fly at all! If that is the case, well then i hold my hands up, because you got me big time!!
jimmyg, you seem like a level headed decent fella, enjoy the change, i bet you'll find it a breath of fresh air.
I look at what you write and quite frankly feel desperately sorry for you, because people like you are generally looked upon as a giant pain who it is really not worth saying anything to, or even flying a sector with, and certainly not being with "when the chips are down". I am glad i never came accross anyone like you when i was new, because the Capts i flew with were big promoters of giving you the show right from day 1, be it checklists (S.O.P.'s anyway), ops, cabin crew whatever, and where more than happy to help out when you needed it or asked for it, and this was on a B757. Stood us all in good stead for the future.
In fact i look at the way you write your threads and your thinking is so backwards that i would be surprised if you fly at all! If that is the case, well then i hold my hands up, because you got me big time!!
jimmyg, you seem like a level headed decent fella, enjoy the change, i bet you'll find it a breath of fresh air.