Landing with engine only after control failure.
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Landing with engine only after control failure.
Hi,
I have read about airliners landing after their controls have failed (ailerons, elevators etc) by using the engines to turn and control pitch.
My question is, in these cases did the pilots still have elevator trim and flap control or had those gone too?
I have read about airliners landing after their controls have failed (ailerons, elevators etc) by using the engines to turn and control pitch.
My question is, in these cases did the pilots still have elevator trim and flap control or had those gone too?
Psychophysiological entity
I am thankfully in the minority when I say that I spent a memorable 40 mins with totally jammed elevators and trim. I had calm conditions that made things a lot easier, also it was a twin turboprop which gave me very quick power reaction time. The main thing was trying to free the control-run while not heaving on the controls so that they suddenly moved and re-jammed in a kamikaze position. Other than that, the engines gave me a good control over the rate of decent.
When finally the plane was fixed, I found myself over JEY with a frozen throttle. The torque would have gone through the roof on decent, so single engine at night in a blizzard and massive cross-wind.
The strange thing is, it's those kind of days that I miss.
When finally the plane was fixed, I found myself over JEY with a frozen throttle. The torque would have gone through the roof on decent, so single engine at night in a blizzard and massive cross-wind.
The strange thing is, it's those kind of days that I miss.
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There are two famous cases of airliners losing all their controls (i.e. the whole caboodle) after total hydraulics failure.
One was a JAL 747. It eventually crashed, with massive loss of life, the other was American (sorry, I forget the airline), which made a landing, of sorts, at Sioux City. Each case showed incredible skill on the part of the crew to keep the aircraft flying as long as they did, using engines only.
One was a JAL 747. It eventually crashed, with massive loss of life, the other was American (sorry, I forget the airline), which made a landing, of sorts, at Sioux City. Each case showed incredible skill on the part of the crew to keep the aircraft flying as long as they did, using engines only.
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With massive loss of life.
The outcomes were: JAL 747 flew into a mountain with 520 people dead, 4 surviving. It is suspected that there would have been more survivors if rescuers had shown up sooner. The United DC-10 had over 100 dead and less than 200 surviving. The whole flightdeck crew among the survivors.
And it seems they did lose flaps. A big disadvantage of United DC-10 was that they had to make fast, flapless approach. Whereas the DHL A-300 had the advantage of being shot down in dirty configuration.
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The outcomes were: JAL 747 flew into a mountain with 520 people dead, 4 surviving. It is suspected that there would have been more survivors if rescuers had shown up sooner. The United DC-10 had over 100 dead and less than 200 surviving. The whole flightdeck crew among the survivors.
That's all right, then. Must get the priorities right.
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Loose Rivets
Sounds like an amazing story, Would love to hear a full account of that night. Maybe able to learn from it as some of us may be flying similar type. What was the out come? Fluid re freezing? I know it's a pain in the A$$ typing it all out but I personally would love to hear about it..
Cheers Crew..
Cheers Crew..
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Wow, I could just about imagine getting a plane down with engines if the trim was still intact but with only engines I would have thought it would be nigh on impossible to judge the flare right as I guess there would be massive lag between input and response.
How did you get your controls un-jammed loose rivet?
How did you get your controls un-jammed loose rivet?
Tiger Moth,
Re the JAL hydraulics failure, as you may know, the event that caused the failure was a failed pressure bulkhead down the back. When it blew, it took most of the vertical fin with it. The aircraft then would have had very little, if any, stability in the yaw axis. It's amazing they kept it going as long as they did.
I have heard from a controller now retired about a B170 that took off, asked to return with a "minor problem", made a very wide circuit, and landed, following which the copilot (as he was called then) got out, wandered down the back, and removed the elevator control lock. The flight then resumed, normally.
Re the JAL hydraulics failure, as you may know, the event that caused the failure was a failed pressure bulkhead down the back. When it blew, it took most of the vertical fin with it. The aircraft then would have had very little, if any, stability in the yaw axis. It's amazing they kept it going as long as they did.
I have heard from a controller now retired about a B170 that took off, asked to return with a "minor problem", made a very wide circuit, and landed, following which the copilot (as he was called then) got out, wandered down the back, and removed the elevator control lock. The flight then resumed, normally.
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simple google searches will locate the incidents you seek.
just quietly, i would have thought mose people already involved in commercial aviation would have more than a passing interest in these matters, and would have sought the documentaries (discovery channel - 'moments to disaster' is one) out.
just quietly, i would have thought mose people already involved in commercial aviation would have more than a passing interest in these matters, and would have sought the documentaries (discovery channel - 'moments to disaster' is one) out.
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There's been a great movie about the United DC-10, can't remember the name though..and the landing itself was taped too, go google. Got it, but not here with me.
Those poor sods had hit the crap in full measure with rudder getting jammed in an off centre position and forcing the plane into a constant rate of turn. They balanced it with differential thrust (I think this was actually done by a check captain riding on the jumpseat), but not turn the other way round. So instead of right turn to Sioux city of about 30 degs they had to make a near complete circle to the left, and not sure if not more of them. Then at no flap landing way over 200 kts all went well until they had to reduce power in an attempt to flare. The jammed rudder prevailed, banked the craft to the left, struck the runway with a wingtip and landed side up, tearing in pieces as it rolled down. In the end about 150 fatalities, including the f/d.
The JAL smashed just below the tip of a mountain into a dense forest, barely accessible, at night and I think it was raining too. Still the SAR made it very quick and managed to save some folks. Japanese public went mad then and demanded Boeing CEO (whom I can't remember at all) to resign and commit a suicide, so I've been told.
Those poor sods had hit the crap in full measure with rudder getting jammed in an off centre position and forcing the plane into a constant rate of turn. They balanced it with differential thrust (I think this was actually done by a check captain riding on the jumpseat), but not turn the other way round. So instead of right turn to Sioux city of about 30 degs they had to make a near complete circle to the left, and not sure if not more of them. Then at no flap landing way over 200 kts all went well until they had to reduce power in an attempt to flare. The jammed rudder prevailed, banked the craft to the left, struck the runway with a wingtip and landed side up, tearing in pieces as it rolled down. In the end about 150 fatalities, including the f/d.
The JAL smashed just below the tip of a mountain into a dense forest, barely accessible, at night and I think it was raining too. Still the SAR made it very quick and managed to save some folks. Japanese public went mad then and demanded Boeing CEO (whom I can't remember at all) to resign and commit a suicide, so I've been told.
Last edited by W.R.A.I.T.H; 16th Nov 2006 at 04:19. Reason: lost for words
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JAL 74 pressure bulkhead blowout:
http://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/...d_program=8316
pretty sure this is the rpg/shoulder sam freighter one - excellent story with great actual video
http://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/...d_program=7913
http://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/...d_program=8316
pretty sure this is the rpg/shoulder sam freighter one - excellent story with great actual video
http://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/...d_program=7913
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Just do a search on Propulsion based Engine Control or Thrust Based Emergency Control or variations thereof...
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There's been a great movie about the United DC-10,
He starred in some great films, but this wasn't one of them. For some reason, the female senior cabin crew (a true heroine) was changed from white to black, and from an intelligent professional into a total moron who wouldn't know her fuselage from her wingtip.
I don't know whom the film insulted most - the profession, the business, blacks or whites. That aside, it was too bad even to be funny.
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There was also an American Airlines DC-10 in a similar situation. "The Windsor incident" as it became known. Captain was Bryce McCormick I believe. They landed the a/c in the one piece.
