Millitary Pukes
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Millitary Pukes
Why can an airforce pilot come and join an airline after retiring from a career in the airforce with very little heavy jet experience when, now that I am past the age of 24, I cannot go and fly a heavy jet in the airforce with 1000s of hours experience.
This seems a bit an@l to me.
I hear stories of pilots flying for the american airlines one day, and then flying a USAF F15 the next.
This seems a bit an@l to me.
I hear stories of pilots flying for the american airlines one day, and then flying a USAF F15 the next.
niknak
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Jack,
I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but, in the UK, to gain any partial exemption from taking the whole CAA ATPL course, an ax - military pilot must have at least 2000 hours under their belt.
Even then they are required to take certain parts of the ATPL course and have no exemptions from the Crew Resourse Management section - which for some ex military people is very hard to take in
.
It's not the breeze that you think it may be, although their previous experience in flying jet or heavy turboprop aircraft, is a big factor in their favour.
At 24, you say you have 1000s of hours experience.
On what type of aircraft?
I think, therein, lies the difference.
I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but, in the UK, to gain any partial exemption from taking the whole CAA ATPL course, an ax - military pilot must have at least 2000 hours under their belt.
Even then they are required to take certain parts of the ATPL course and have no exemptions from the Crew Resourse Management section - which for some ex military people is very hard to take in
.It's not the breeze that you think it may be, although their previous experience in flying jet or heavy turboprop aircraft, is a big factor in their favour.
At 24, you say you have 1000s of hours experience.
On what type of aircraft?
I think, therein, lies the difference.
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Don't the Americans still have an Air National Guard that works in a similar fashion to our VR or TA over here - a kind of part-time military backup which can be called upon in emergency? I'm sure I read that many US civilian pilots are also members of the ANG, which might account for driving an airliner one day and a military type the next..
An ATC friend of mine is in the RAFVR and often bombs about in helicopters, but I don't think as a pilot..
An ATC friend of mine is in the RAFVR and often bombs about in helicopters, but I don't think as a pilot..
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The difference between us and the Americans is numbers. We have very few aircraft in relation to our yank friends yet, if you know anything about the RAF you will know that we have more personnel to aircraft than any other air force in the world.
We don't need part time pilots, we have too many full time one's!
We don't need part time pilots, we have too many full time one's!
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There are a lot of pilots for US flag carrier airlines to fly, say a 737, as a full time job and then one weekend a month fly an F-15 or an F-16 etc. They are members of either the Air Force Reserves or the Air National Guard. Very common here in the US
Life's too short for ironing
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"What a great life that'd be"
I'll say! One guy I know of flies an F-something-very-fast (dunno which type) for the military while furloughed from the airlines, and flies vintage bombers and fighters - now thats the life!!!
I'll say! One guy I know of flies an F-something-very-fast (dunno which type) for the military while furloughed from the airlines, and flies vintage bombers and fighters - now thats the life!!!
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There are plenty of Lawyers and Engineers etc flying for the ANG and Air Force Reserve. Not all of them fly for the airlines as a day job. some are ex airforce but many were never full time airforce. Probably the best hobby in the world. Flying jet fighters at the weekend.
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Jack
The thing with the Airforce is that, whilst basically, anyone can be taught to fly, not everyone can use the flying platforms tactically and make the correct tactical decisions in an instant without having to struggle with the art of flying. The rigorous selection processes and training regimes are geared toward weeding out the people that dont posses the right stuff.
Military tactical flying isnt the same as taking Kylie and Jason from Stanstead to Spain for their annual week in the sun. Being able to fly a 737 (or the like) from A to B doesnt mean you have the right stuff just that you have thrown enough time and money in the right direction.
It isnt so much being an@l as being very cautious with the tax payers money.
The training is very expensive as are the platforms.
As for the Americans, their part-time aviators are ex full-time USAF / USN / Marines/ Army Pilots with very, very few exceptions. Although they are minted and paranoid about defence even they arent stupid enough to put a 737 pilot with no military flying experience / training in charge of a Harrier.
The thing with the Airforce is that, whilst basically, anyone can be taught to fly, not everyone can use the flying platforms tactically and make the correct tactical decisions in an instant without having to struggle with the art of flying. The rigorous selection processes and training regimes are geared toward weeding out the people that dont posses the right stuff.
Military tactical flying isnt the same as taking Kylie and Jason from Stanstead to Spain for their annual week in the sun. Being able to fly a 737 (or the like) from A to B doesnt mean you have the right stuff just that you have thrown enough time and money in the right direction.
It isnt so much being an@l as being very cautious with the tax payers money.
The training is very expensive as are the platforms.
As for the Americans, their part-time aviators are ex full-time USAF / USN / Marines/ Army Pilots with very, very few exceptions. Although they are minted and paranoid about defence even they arent stupid enough to put a 737 pilot with no military flying experience / training in charge of a Harrier.
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Military Pukes?
Hmm, a bit strong perhaps, but then again the shoe fits a few...to a great degree.
Many of these guys from fast jets certainly can not be put in charge of anything in the civvy airline business, except perhaps sweeping the hangar floor.
Much training is needed to knock the cr@p military ideas out of 'em. Certainly can be done, and once done...they generally measure up to civvy guys in all respects.
Many of these guys from fast jets certainly can not be put in charge of anything in the civvy airline business, except perhaps sweeping the hangar floor.
Much training is needed to knock the cr@p military ideas out of 'em. Certainly can be done, and once done...they generally measure up to civvy guys in all respects.
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from my view
we have some ex military types in our field. whilst they are very able chaps they seem to struggle with the fact that they are 'only the driver' and whilst in command of the kite, are that the tactical decisions are made by the rozzers. they also have a tendanct to shout "missiles away" trying to drop weapons when the camera crosshairs are on a vehicle.
this is beaten out of them with a long pointy stick until they eventually conform to our demands.
however, on the plus side its always nice to fly at super low level over the hills, which some of our civilian bred pilots dont feel comfy with.
basically the moral of the story is that we love our pilots, but we love giving them stick even more !!!!!
this is beaten out of them with a long pointy stick until they eventually conform to our demands.
however, on the plus side its always nice to fly at super low level over the hills, which some of our civilian bred pilots dont feel comfy with.
basically the moral of the story is that we love our pilots, but we love giving them stick even more !!!!!
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Silberfuchs is a bit extreme, but he has some valid points. We are all different..... talented, but different. Think back to the original question and remember it is not who are the best pilots. It is, why can't I fly military transports? The truth is harsh, but you need some particular extra skills and attitudes to fly military into potential harms way. THIS DOES NOT QUESTION YOUR ABILITY TO FLY BIG JETS and Yes, you may very well be a better commercial pilot than the ex military man. Remember also, that ex mil people have had years of documented assessments to look back on, not everyone is invited back!! As a new boy, you do not have the wonderful F5000 flying record folder to show you are trustworthy.
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There is training...and then there is training ex-mil guys
And yes, sadly, the latter are more difficult.
The civvy guys receive the ops manual, and it says quite clearly...at xxxx airline, we do it THIS way..., period.
No arguments from them.
The ex-mil guys (speaking only fast jet guys here, the transport chaps are not a 'problem') tend to believe that the ops manual is written only for others, not them.
And, their training generally has to be extended, so as to get 'em to work as a team, not a one man show.
This costs the airline vital time and resources, that they simply do not have to expend on strictly civvy guys/gals.
This 'one man show' usually follows thru on line training as well, and it soon becomes quite clear that the attitude gets in the way, nearly every time.
When line training these ex-mil chaps, I usually mentioned...shape up or ship out.
Worked every time.
In short, the ex-mil guys flying ability was not the difficulty, it was the attitude.
A bit like those from the old BOAC, beak firmly stuck well above ground effect.
The civvy guys receive the ops manual, and it says quite clearly...at xxxx airline, we do it THIS way..., period.
No arguments from them.
The ex-mil guys (speaking only fast jet guys here, the transport chaps are not a 'problem') tend to believe that the ops manual is written only for others, not them.
And, their training generally has to be extended, so as to get 'em to work as a team, not a one man show.
This costs the airline vital time and resources, that they simply do not have to expend on strictly civvy guys/gals.
This 'one man show' usually follows thru on line training as well, and it soon becomes quite clear that the attitude gets in the way, nearly every time.
When line training these ex-mil chaps, I usually mentioned...shape up or ship out.
Worked every time.
In short, the ex-mil guys flying ability was not the difficulty, it was the attitude.
A bit like those from the old BOAC, beak firmly stuck well above ground effect.
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Could I fly for the US Reserve forces. One of those F52s would be a bit of a lark.
OK I am an English Man. However with our "Special Relationship" with the USA, do you think that they would allow me to do the same.
Possibly like the TA, one weekend a month and a two week camp a year, preferably in Florida, now that would suit me down to the ground. Maybe a bounty at the end of each year and a travel allowance. (Imagine the hourly rate).
OK I am an English Man. However with our "Special Relationship" with the USA, do you think that they would allow me to do the same.
Possibly like the TA, one weekend a month and a two week camp a year, preferably in Florida, now that would suit me down to the ground. Maybe a bounty at the end of each year and a travel allowance. (Imagine the hourly rate).
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411A.... Did you read the original question? This is not a 'we are better than you' argument...... Is it? Or did the military turn you down...... That is banter by the way, not a serious insult!! However if you keep on this slagging the FJ boys (I'm not) that is the way the thread will go. That is a Harry Ramsden super chip you seem to have.
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Why can an airforce pilot come and join an airline after retiring from a career in the airforce with very little heavy jet experience when, now that I am past the age of 24...
Well, as an ex-Mil pilot I think that 411A has a very valid point. Please note that he is not tarring all ex-military people with the same brush.
But if someone is not receptive to line training, and still think's he's the finest 'aviator' who ever flew and that the old civvy puke in the other seat is a waste of golden gloves' time, then he should indeed shut up or ship out!
Stick and rudder skill set is always a high priority in the military; enthusiasm to adapt to a different way of life when you've been seeing yourself as the 'best of the best' all your life is perhaps not an easy pill for some to swallow!
Fortunately there aren't many UK FJ pilots with such an attitude; the 'wrong stuff' bull$hit trotted out by Learmouth of Flight magazine is utter bolleaux. Most FJ pilots fly in a multi-crew environment anyway - it's just that there are usually 4 FJ mates in 2 or 4 different jets acting as a single team. And that's probably why the ex-Reds do so well in the airlines; not because they've got hundreds of hours in tight formation but beacuse they've got hundreds of hours in a team.
To gain the full ATPL credit in the RAF, you have to have achieved 2000hrs total military flight time, have graduated from an approved conversion unit (eg C130, TriStar, VC10 etc), have at least 1500 hours on that a/c of which at least 1000 must have been P1C. Then you pass a Class 1 medical, pass Air Law, fly a military IR to CAA requirements with a CAA IRE observing (and that means a lot of hand-flying!), fill out the form, pay the money and wait for the licence. You are credited the MCC. But a FJ mate with 2000TT has to take additional exams, has to do MCC, has to do a an IR in something like a PA34.....and ends up with a CPL/IR with ATPL knowledge (known as a 'frozen' ATPL). Not untl he has flown 500 hours as co-pilot on a multi-crew a/c can he upgrade to ATPL!
PS - He or she, of course!
But if someone is not receptive to line training, and still think's he's the finest 'aviator' who ever flew and that the old civvy puke in the other seat is a waste of golden gloves' time, then he should indeed shut up or ship out!
Stick and rudder skill set is always a high priority in the military; enthusiasm to adapt to a different way of life when you've been seeing yourself as the 'best of the best' all your life is perhaps not an easy pill for some to swallow!
Fortunately there aren't many UK FJ pilots with such an attitude; the 'wrong stuff' bull$hit trotted out by Learmouth of Flight magazine is utter bolleaux. Most FJ pilots fly in a multi-crew environment anyway - it's just that there are usually 4 FJ mates in 2 or 4 different jets acting as a single team. And that's probably why the ex-Reds do so well in the airlines; not because they've got hundreds of hours in tight formation but beacuse they've got hundreds of hours in a team.
To gain the full ATPL credit in the RAF, you have to have achieved 2000hrs total military flight time, have graduated from an approved conversion unit (eg C130, TriStar, VC10 etc), have at least 1500 hours on that a/c of which at least 1000 must have been P1C. Then you pass a Class 1 medical, pass Air Law, fly a military IR to CAA requirements with a CAA IRE observing (and that means a lot of hand-flying!), fill out the form, pay the money and wait for the licence. You are credited the MCC. But a FJ mate with 2000TT has to take additional exams, has to do MCC, has to do a an IR in something like a PA34.....and ends up with a CPL/IR with ATPL knowledge (known as a 'frozen' ATPL). Not untl he has flown 500 hours as co-pilot on a multi-crew a/c can he upgrade to ATPL!
PS - He or she, of course!
Only half a speed-brake
BEable:
May I pretty please have (for a reason) a link to an official document you gain your knowledge from, speaking entirely of the last paragraph. I am sure it is dug somwhere ... ījust could not find it.
Thanks FD.
Thanks FD.
See LASORS section D3.3B and D3.6. You can download LASORS from the CAA website as a .pdf , the TGDA website is currently out of date and being re-written.
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Yeeeehaaaaaarrrr!!!!!
Nothing like training with a big stick!!
Just cos I said I had passed the age of 24 (26 too!) doesn`t mean I cant have over 3000 hrs civvy jet time.
Just wanna know why one can start a career with the military, and then end it with an airline, but not the other way round.... Basically, if you`ve got the abillity to both then why can you not do the military thing last?
Or am I being a bit dumb..... Cant possibly ask an old git to fight a war.
Before you ask I was never turned down by the military. Couldn`t have been.... I never applied. Besides, I would have been too good anyway!!!
He he he he