Flying in IMC in uncontrolled airspace without radar
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Flying in IMC in uncontrolled airspace without radar
On this thread in the Private Flying forum, the comment was made that:
I was wondering if any commercial pilots could confirm this, and give more details?
Does your company schedule flights outside CAS at times when it is known that no radar coverage is available, or would you only do this if radar went down? Do your SOPs distinguish between flying outside CAS on a direct routing or to cut a corner, as opposed to flying outside CAS to reach an airfield where the CTR/CTA dosen't join an airway? Are there any other requirements, e.g. TCAS?
Thanks!
FFF
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Scheduled traffic does fly in... IMC without an RIS, outside CAS
Does your company schedule flights outside CAS at times when it is known that no radar coverage is available, or would you only do this if radar went down? Do your SOPs distinguish between flying outside CAS on a direct routing or to cut a corner, as opposed to flying outside CAS to reach an airfield where the CTR/CTA dosen't join an airway? Are there any other requirements, e.g. TCAS?
Thanks!
FFF
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Last edited by FlyingForFun; 22nd Oct 2003 at 18:46.
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Not all routes between airports are served by an Airway, so any direct routing is a definite bonus.
I've been on a flight where we've taken off out of an airport in Sweden late at night and been given a direct routing to our final approach fix with about 400nm to run.
From a commercial point of view this is ideal, as it saves on fuel/time etc, and I'm sure many tired pilot's who've been there would agree.
I know it doesn't answer yr Q regarding SOP's etc, but there's a practical side to doing it.
I've been on a flight where we've taken off out of an airport in Sweden late at night and been given a direct routing to our final approach fix with about 400nm to run.
From a commercial point of view this is ideal, as it saves on fuel/time etc, and I'm sure many tired pilot's who've been there would agree.
I know it doesn't answer yr Q regarding SOP's etc, but there's a practical side to doing it.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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5150,
I know that there are many reasons for flying outside controlled airspace. My question was specifically regarding doing this without radar coverage. (I've changed the thread title to make this clearer.) Did you have radar coverage for the flight you mentioned?
Thanks!
FFF
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I know that there are many reasons for flying outside controlled airspace. My question was specifically regarding doing this without radar coverage. (I've changed the thread title to make this clearer.) Did you have radar coverage for the flight you mentioned?
Thanks!
FFF
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Last edited by FlyingForFun; 22nd Oct 2003 at 18:47.
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From EGBB, there is a Brecon dep and arr that takes tfc outside CAS. Radar is provided between B'ham and London Mil.
I don't imagine anyone planning on going that way if the radar was u/s.
I don't imagine anyone planning on going that way if the radar was u/s.
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With the exception of Sumburgh, which has CAS anyway, none of the Highlands and Islands airports have radar available, so basically all the flights are operating outside CAS on a procedural service only.
Is this a UK question only? Because obviously there are still parts of the world with no radar cover so of course one must be able to fly outside CAS without radar to reach them.
The Hooligan's example confirms that some of these areas are not so far from home!
The Hooligan's example confirms that some of these areas are not so far from home!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Hooligan - that's exactly the type of route I'm talking about. Do you have any special procedures for traffic avoidance on these routes, especially in IMC? How big a part does TCAS play?
And the same question to 604guy, assuming you're talking about uncontrolled airspace.
Keithl - no, it's not specifically a UK question. I'm actually thinking about the safety aspects of a UK IMC-rating holder flying in IMC where no LARS is available, so I'm interested to know what procedures the commercial guys use and which of those procedures might be applicable to light aircraft (on the assumption that everything which commercial pilots do should, in theory at least, be statistically very safe). I think foreign pilots' experiences are just as valid as UK pilots' for this purpose, except that many countries will have far less traffic than parts of the UK.
FFF
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And the same question to 604guy, assuming you're talking about uncontrolled airspace.
Keithl - no, it's not specifically a UK question. I'm actually thinking about the safety aspects of a UK IMC-rating holder flying in IMC where no LARS is available, so I'm interested to know what procedures the commercial guys use and which of those procedures might be applicable to light aircraft (on the assumption that everything which commercial pilots do should, in theory at least, be statistically very safe). I think foreign pilots' experiences are just as valid as UK pilots' for this purpose, except that many countries will have far less traffic than parts of the UK.
FFF
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Well, it really just boils down to: In IMC, fly IFR. AIP/ENR 1-3-1 para 3 refers.
Quadrantals protect you against collision, MSA protects you against CFIT, and Procedural Approaches get you down again.
Put in a Flight plan so the system knows you're there and talk to someone who can tell you the weather and "known traffic".
If I've left anything out someone will soon let us know!
Quadrantals protect you against collision, MSA protects you against CFIT, and Procedural Approaches get you down again.
Put in a Flight plan so the system knows you're there and talk to someone who can tell you the weather and "known traffic".
If I've left anything out someone will soon let us know!
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FlyingForFun,
I have no doubt that TCAS has improved things, however when I worked in that part of the world , that particular piece of equipment was in its infancy.
As for special procedures, there are none apart from the recommendations in the AIP about calling units when you are operating in the vicinity. However, you can not force anyone to do this otherwise it becomes CAS by proxy. All you can do is provide an air traffic control service to participating flights (separate know IFR flights, traffic info on VFR etc) and hope that the big sky, small aeroplane theory holds out against any other traffic that may be out there and not talking to you.
I have no doubt that TCAS has improved things, however when I worked in that part of the world , that particular piece of equipment was in its infancy.
As for special procedures, there are none apart from the recommendations in the AIP about calling units when you are operating in the vicinity. However, you can not force anyone to do this otherwise it becomes CAS by proxy. All you can do is provide an air traffic control service to participating flights (separate know IFR flights, traffic info on VFR etc) and hope that the big sky, small aeroplane theory holds out against any other traffic that may be out there and not talking to you.
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It has to be done in vast parts of the world.......
In fact, probably most!!
I have seen a 727 go 100m past my wingtip at the same flight level, and cleared at the same level!, and been seen spiralling up across the windscreen of another aircraft 150m away, which lead to an interesting exchange!! Hello, Carl!
By way of example, 100s of aircraft fly into, and out of, Luanda every day, including now, I believe, BA. They have no radar and haven't for years. Procedural separation works fine, almost, and out in the sticks you just talk to the other aircraft and arrange your own separation.
Hey, the sky's a big place!!
In fact, probably most!!
I have seen a 727 go 100m past my wingtip at the same flight level, and cleared at the same level!, and been seen spiralling up across the windscreen of another aircraft 150m away, which lead to an interesting exchange!! Hello, Carl!
By way of example, 100s of aircraft fly into, and out of, Luanda every day, including now, I believe, BA. They have no radar and haven't for years. Procedural separation works fine, almost, and out in the sticks you just talk to the other aircraft and arrange your own separation.
Hey, the sky's a big place!!
Last edited by Jetdriver; 23rd Oct 2003 at 08:14.
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Canada is quite popular for that, up north. Like other pilots said, you can go direct which can save you time and money (unless the winds favour something else), just state your intention on traffic advisory 126.7 (CANADA) more often when in IMC. In some case you dont even need to file an IFR flight plan, just an intenerary.
FFF, you use whatever tools are available. If radar advisory services are available you'd use them. If RIS then take advantage of that, if no radar then use whatever information service(s) are available. If no information services then listen out & make broadcasts at marked position reporting points. If no marked reporting points then at regular intervals or on hearing a potential conflict.
If you have the benefit of TCAS then that is a great aid no matter how many or how few FS/ATC services are available.
No matter what equipment or services are there, keep looking for traffic as weather permits.
Make use of defined procedures eg quadrantal/hemispherical levels, published tracking requirements such as northbound traffic to track via ABC, southbound via XYZ.
Plan your route to avoid departure & approach procedures if possible.
If you have the benefit of TCAS then that is a great aid no matter how many or how few FS/ATC services are available.
No matter what equipment or services are there, keep looking for traffic as weather permits.
Make use of defined procedures eg quadrantal/hemispherical levels, published tracking requirements such as northbound traffic to track via ABC, southbound via XYZ.
Plan your route to avoid departure & approach procedures if possible.
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IMC flight
It's quite normal for commercial flights in Mediterranean areas also to fly without radar, but it gets a bit hectic sometimes. half a dozen aircraft being procedurally positioned for approach into a greek island at night with one controller having to continually ask each aircraft for range and bearing updates to work out relative distances etc for spacing...not for the nervous flyer.
I'm a bit out of touch with recent PPlL training and IMC rating these days, but I was always under the impression that the intention of teaching and issuing an IMC rating is really only a "get out of trouble" rating..if you accidentally get into cloud, use your instrument flying skills to get out of it by turning back . If you set off with the intention of going into cloud, get an IR.
I know the law doesn't quite read that way, but too many pilots kill themselves because they think their IMC rating is all they need to know about IMC flying.
Be careful. Happy landings
I'm a bit out of touch with recent PPlL training and IMC rating these days, but I was always under the impression that the intention of teaching and issuing an IMC rating is really only a "get out of trouble" rating..if you accidentally get into cloud, use your instrument flying skills to get out of it by turning back . If you set off with the intention of going into cloud, get an IR.
I know the law doesn't quite read that way, but too many pilots kill themselves because they think their IMC rating is all they need to know about IMC flying.
Be careful. Happy landings
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As previously stated regarding operations in Canada, this is VERY common. Monitoring enroute frequencies is mandatory. Going IFR into uncontrolled non-radar airports is "virtually" the same as operating VFR- maintain a good listening watch and broadcast intentions.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Thanks again to everyone for your replies.
Just to re-iterate, I am not talking about aircraft receiving a procedural service. I am talking about receiving a Flight Information Service, if any service at all - no instructions, in an unknown traffic environment. I know some of the replies do relate to this environment, so thanks.
FFF
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(Celtic - regarding the IMC rating, this has been debated, very vocally at times, over and over again on the Private Flying thread, so I'll resist the temptation to take your bait. Suffice to say that some pilots view it that way, others don't.)
Just to re-iterate, I am not talking about aircraft receiving a procedural service. I am talking about receiving a Flight Information Service, if any service at all - no instructions, in an unknown traffic environment. I know some of the replies do relate to this environment, so thanks.
FFF
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(Celtic - regarding the IMC rating, this has been debated, very vocally at times, over and over again on the Private Flying thread, so I'll resist the temptation to take your bait. Suffice to say that some pilots view it that way, others don't.)
FFF, a FIS is easily do-able. Keep a note of what traffic is passed to you (or you overhear in the area), their altitude/position/route/intentions/timings etc. If there's a potential conflict call them and arrange a mutually convenient self separation
Examples:
you stay below 6000' until after 20DME/west of ABC, I'll stay above 7000'.
Inbound from the south,I'll descend i to the LSALT by 10nm, you initially climb to LSALT+1000 towards the N, E or W.
I'll stack in the hold & at least 1000' above you until you report on the ground after your approach OR esablished in a missed approach that takes you away from the approach area.
This sort of stuff is very, very common in Oz.
Examples:
you stay below 6000' until after 20DME/west of ABC, I'll stay above 7000'.
Inbound from the south,I'll descend i to the LSALT by 10nm, you initially climb to LSALT+1000 towards the N, E or W.
I'll stack in the hold & at least 1000' above you until you report on the ground after your approach OR esablished in a missed approach that takes you away from the approach area.
This sort of stuff is very, very common in Oz.
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Yes, also very common in Papua New Guinea. Uncontrolled airport, no Radar Service, only FIS. All the same as has already been said. Report position to FIS at every reporting point, take a note of all traffic information that is given to you - and then keep a damned good look-out, if possible. Approaching the airport, give a call that states distance, direction from which you are approaching, altitude and intentions.
Follow up with a call on joining the circuit. All these advisory calls are made on the frequency applicable to the area. That way, all other aircraft should (in theory at least) hear you.
The only times I've had to think a lot about it is working out the likely position at which I might pass some traffic that has been notified to me enroute. Most times, the traffic is going a different direction but, occasionally, there'll be one or more on a track that will cross my track. I do some quick sums and if it looks like it might be a problem (I'm generous with my calculations), I'll always talk directly to that other traffic.
It's all just part of the job.
Follow up with a call on joining the circuit. All these advisory calls are made on the frequency applicable to the area. That way, all other aircraft should (in theory at least) hear you.
The only times I've had to think a lot about it is working out the likely position at which I might pass some traffic that has been notified to me enroute. Most times, the traffic is going a different direction but, occasionally, there'll be one or more on a track that will cross my track. I do some quick sums and if it looks like it might be a problem (I'm generous with my calculations), I'll always talk directly to that other traffic.
It's all just part of the job.
