65K Plus for an ATPL?
 

Original post deleted because of clarification from Paul Hickley (OATS) about this new course.

I hope OATS are successful with this course as they have been before.

OATS have a course designed for everyone's pocket size.

So if you are rich there is the Partner course, if you cant afford the partner then there is the Full time Ab-Initio, and if you still cant afford that then there is the modular.

Thank you very much for your clarification PH.

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

Plenty of others too choose from! :eek: :eek: :eek:

BOW5
The full ATPL programme is still there and at same cost as you were quoted.

But this is a new programme and costs 65K without accomodation and food.

I think the original programme is still expensive let alone this new airline partner programme.

Good luck to you if you can afford it!

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

65K !!!!!

What on earth do you get for that then ???

:eek: :eek: :eek:

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[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

Well it just baffles me where people get the money from. But they do and OATS is pretty full...

!

WWW

What confuses me is - Oxford can't guarantee you a job with an airline even if you sign up for the partner scheme surely. If not then all they are offering is a guarantee of an interview (or several) with airlines. Does this mean that they now no longer give any help at all to people on the basic £54,000 package to find a job afterwards? If so then basically is this scheme just a way to charge an extra £11,000 simply for a guaranteed interview? Surely there is a limit to how far OATS will go.

I've just checked OATS website and the basic £54,000 package claims that the graduates will be 'fully airline ready', however the £65,000 package, in addition to claiming to set up interviews 'for suitable students', claims to 'train students to higher levels', claiming they will be 'far more airline prepared than other pilots'. How can they get more highly trained than 'fully airline ready'? Exactly what additional training does it entail - there are no details?

TB

Apologies for the overuse of the word 'claim' and derivatives

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: Token Bird ]

Now if my memory serves me correctly, back in 1997 BAe Systems Prestwick set up a similar scheme called PASS. Partnership Airline Sponsorship Scheme (or something like). However, their approach was to recruit a pool of suitable candidates and various airlines would pick & choose from this pool, and offer a part sponsorship. After the Morrisby tests & GAPAN testing (totalling £500) I was one of the lucky 30 to beat off a 1000 initial applications. Brilliant!... ...Not quite. I think AIH took on 4 or 5, and that was it. We never heard from BAe again - change of management etc but it seemed the 'airlines' weren’t really interested in recruiting back then.

Although I didn't end up with a job, it certainly built my confidence up (quite young then) and I still believe it was worth every penny.

Back to my main point, similar things have been done before - didn't really work, cost me only £500 to tell me I was suitable for Airline work. As it's already been stated, there's still no 100% guarantee of a job - not be even an interview and that is one costly exercise. On the other hand someone's going to get a job and it could be you...

...best of luck to all who go for it & happy flying

CFIT

MURRAY, we were told at the seminar in August that the partnership programme was now the ATPL and cost 54k. I got the impression that was why the cost had risen from 48k. Now they say its 65k for the partnership programme.

This drives me up the wall!! If you are not guarenteed a job, even on the partnership programme, then what the hell chance has anyone got who is on the normal ATPL course? Surely, if the ATPL course isn't sufficient for people to gain employment then everyone should be doing the partnership programme.

What makes it worse is that at this seminar someone asked a question about aptitude testing and recieved a reply along the lines of "we don't think aptitude tests are relevant. We like to see people who have failed the aptitude tests but are still determined". Everyone knows that is rubbish and that aptitude tests are very important. AND WHAT HAPPENS?! Suprise suprise, people who are attempt to go on the partnership programme are aptitude tested!!

There is too much inconsistancy in the information they give out. More to the point, if I get one more school/airline saying that early 20's is the best time to train i'll scream. How on earth do schools expect people who have spent three years at uni and graduated at 21-22 to find 65k to then train as an airline pilot. According to the OATS website, the HSBC will only give proff development loans up to 30k. That leaves 35k to find. Who are they kidding? :rolleyes:

HSBC do lend well over the £30k mark in their PSL. I know a guy who borrowed over £60k. Takes guts and determination though.

VFE.

I work at Oxford Aviation, so I have an interest to declare. I also know that Scroggs and WWW have a firm policy on no use of pprune for advertising - which I
understand and respect. However, there are so many half-understood ideas on this
thread that I hope that the following will be seen as a simple statement of the facts
and a correction to misapprehensions, not as hyping the product. If you’re
badmouthing us, we ought to have the right to reply. May I also say that I’m writing
as a private individual, not a management-approved mouthpiece?

We are talking about 2 different things here. One is the standard course - about
£54K - which we run at present. This includes both airline-sponsored and self-
sponsored, and we already try to help the self-sponsored by advice on CVs, extra-
curicular lectures from airline recruiters, and - if any of our client airlines are short of sponsored recruits - by actually recommending suitable self-sponsored students
towards the end of the course, when we have had time to see how they have
actually performed.

This new Partnership Programme is different. There will be a selection procedure.
We expect (we can’t guarantee, but we expect) to be able to place EVERY
Partnership student with an airline. We cannot afford to take on people who are not
likely to be at, ot very near to, the standard of airline sponsored students. Otherwide
we would be taking their money under false pretences.

These selected candidates will then be expected to perform to a high standard on
the course - about 85% on every progress test, internal exam, and JAA exam. If
you’re not hacking it, you switch to the normal course (at a lower price).

It’s much more than just a guarantee of an interview. We write very comprehensive
reports on you at Oxford, both on the ground and in the air. They are usually 3-5
pages long and are similar to a military Annual Report. We make these available
(with your consent) to the Partnership airlines. We expect most of the Partnership
students to havbe a firm offer of a job well before the end of the course. We expect
everyone who makes the grade to have a job at the end of it. We also expect that
many of the airlines will pay part sponsorship, once they have offered a firm place.
In that case, your course might end up costing you about £30 - 35 K - your career
development loan. I use the word ‘expect’ because we can’t guarantee it yet. We
will have to wait and see how it all ackles down. In the meantime, this course is not
for everybody - only the best. It also includes simulator and airline orientation. - to
save the airlines time.

Airlines are short of pilots, but they won’t recruit just anybody. The knowledge that
there was a guaranteed standard of candidate, a full report on his perfromance, and
a simulator-trained candidate would take so much doubt away from them and would
save them so much time and expense in recruiting.

Paul Hickley

You can't blame Oxford, after all they are in it to make money!

Rather its the mugs that go along with this and pay their 65K + living expenses to be on this course!

One would hope there are plenty of interviews after spending this kind of money, but hey i'm sure the Oxford people probably have some sort of 'get-out clause'! And further to this it’s the airlines choice at the end of the day not OATS on who decides whether they take you on or not!

Really what are people thinking about when they spend 65K, when they can get the same licenses for a lot less!

While there are mugs out there that will pay for such courses and you only need to look at OATs and see, the training schools will keep on doing it!

Its rather like these expensive trainers and sports wear etc. The only reason why they are so expensive is that they know people will pay for them! Albeit there is also an elitist attitude to wearing such as Rockport boots or going to OATs, but you get the general impression!

Really the wannabes themselves are spoiling it for themselves with there easy to please- pay for everything attitude. I realise its a hard world out there to find jobs but if everyone stopped at the same point in their training everyone would be much better off! It would then be more up to the airlines to bridge the gap rather than taking on wannabes who have their own 737 type rating etc.

Airlines would have to rely more heavily on personal qualitites (I know they do already) rather than selecting a pool of candidates who have just spent 80K on a new spanking course and a type rating and then selecting those candidates on personal qualities!

If BA ever wants to boost its profits I'm sure people out there would pay 150K to go on their trainee pilot scheme with job at end! It would prove to be a nice little earner for them me thinks!! :) :)

Paul,

Thanks for your reply to this. Don't get me wrong, when I visited the seminar I was very impressed and had pretty much made my mind up to train at OATS. Although it is more expensive than other schools I thought the extra training, sim time + the brand name on my CV would be cery beneficial (aren't I a sucker for a marketing ploy! ) ;) . As i'm sure you can understand, everyone wants the best possible chance of getting a job at the end of their training and it seems to me that now at OATS it means trying to get onto the partnership programme. What worries me, apart from the extra 11k + living costs, is that if I or any one else is not suitable for the partnership programme then surely the airlines involved in the scheme will be looking at graduates of the ATPL course as second class. If they are part of the scheme then it makes sense they will take pretty much only graduates of the partnership scheme. I'm sure in some cases (which it could will be in mine) it is not lack of aptitude or qualifications but the inability to raise the 70k + needed to get on the scheme, especially at the age of 22.

I personally think this scheme is something that has been a long time coming for pilot training and OATS should be applauded for making it happen. What I would like to know, that isn't forthcoming on your website, is the exact details of the HSBC partnership (something mentioned but in no way made clear at the seminar), how much can be borrowed and the age at which you envisage the average person will start this course, because as a 22 year old graduate, my bank account reads a long long way short of 70k.
;)

Cheers.

Spot the mug! Theres one born every minute!!

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: SuperTed ]

Cheers for the info Rich.

I'll give the bank a call but do you know if, for instance, you could borrow 30k at 2% then a further 25-30k at a higher interest rate, or is the 30k the limit?

There was a post further up this thread saying the HSBC have loaned more than 60k to people. The interest on that does not even bear thinking about.

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[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

You would have thought that something like this would get less elitist over time, not more elitist,

TB

What 75k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No thanks i'd rather have:

1 x Small Yacht
1 x 100% share in a pa 28 warrior
1 x 3 bedroom house in Lake district
1 x 2 bedroom apt in manchester city centre
2 x TVR Chimeras
1 x Porsche 911
1250 Jumpseat rides to barcelona with EZY jet
75 Weeks in Monaco
75 Tecra 8000 Laptops
7,500,000 1 Penny chews!
2 x Multiflights Ab Initio ATPL course!
3 x SFT's Ab Initio course!

:D :D :D :D :D

In fact ive changed my mind!!

Write the price on a glossy piece of paper with a big 737 next to it, and ill give you the 75K!!!!!! :eek:
:D :D


Edited coz i can't spell or use comma's!!!!

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: Rob 747 ]

Hmmm, where have I heard that before.

Ann Robinson, where are you as there's another weakest link for you!!

PS

The way the £65K course is being marketed, there definitely seems to be a concerning trend here.

i.e. "the more money you pay, the more likely you are to get a job at the end". I would have thought that it should be "the better qualified pilot you are, the more likely you are to get a job".

I also seem to remember it being said by OATS that on some occasions, exceptional students on the standard ATPL course may well be recommended to airlines for sponsorship or other benefit later on in the course. Does the introduction of the partnership course now mean that if you are exceptional, you still won't get recommended unless you put forward the extra dosh.

It just doesn't sound right to me!

And an FAA license isn't worth the paper its not printed on in the EU which is where we all want to work. Not that we have the right to work in the US of course. Slight snag there.

Also in the US ones first job is going to be on cheque running at night in a Bandit and after ten years you make it to a jet airline and a big comfy union agreement. In the UK you *can* walk straight into that jet job. Big difference in investment/reward my friend and that often negates the higher license cost under JAA...

If you've got a ton of cash and some aptitude then I guess OATS new scheme is for you - it'll give you an element of queue jumping at the very least.

However, to take a recent graduate of Jerez as an example (Hi Rob) who was one of the stronger graduates in his class. The school gives him a nice recommendation as such and after a month or two he gets Britannia 757/767 at Manchester. All for the sum of £45k plus beer money and sun tan lotion.

CABAIR and SFT can issue recommendation that might get you ahead in the queue for an interview. The £20k+ shortfall would more than cover some extra sim time if that what you wanted prior to a sim assessment with an airline. Plus an FI rating.

But if you have the money then why not?

I don't see anything wrong with OATS move. BAE are also moving to having ALL applicants to the college pass an aptitude assessment to get in. Its the way the world is moving.

Flying trainig is actually getting cheaper as well. BAe charged £13k more in 1991 than they do now for an ATPL course...

Good luck one and all,

WWW

Thanks Mormoner, for your very constructive comments there. This was an interesting debate, until your poor spelling, grammar and attitude cast a black cloud over this thread. This maybe your first post, but I doubt it, but there is no need for a full-blown attack on OATS or anyone for that matter. It’s also very interesting you’re a BA pilot with an F.A.A Licence. So you’re an expert on all the British Flight Training Schools then?

Looks like Ronchonner is back, and in his usual form. Ignore him people, he will go away if he upsets us! Just wait for the tattooed yellow privates!

Post deleted. This kind of abusive rubbish will not be tolerated on Pprune. Here we go again, Ronch. Bye Bye.
Scroggs
XXXX

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]

A fool and his money are easily parted.... an old topic but with a new twist from OATS.

The marketing problem is product differentiation. Because the licence you obtain is the same, wherever you train, what might make you choose (and pay more at) A rather than B, C, or, in this case, O ?

Solutions seem to be:
Prospect of job- OATS are not the only culprits. No further comment other than you'll have to decide whether or not it's worth the extra, or anything, with no guarantee.
Superior student- This is the notion that you/their training are better, if you go there/pay more, which does raise the question of poorer commitment and attitude to students who are paying less. The alleged different treatment of sponsored and 'self-sponsored' students, sucking-up to airlines etc. are old complaints about many places.

In the case of OATS, isn't the fact that someone is paying significantly more, or less, than others a classic motive for better, or worse, treatment? If you were paying more, wouldn't you expect and insist on better? I would so you were warned !

It seems to me that OATS are simply marketing and attempting to increase profitability by means of another variant of that old pilot training trick -the more you pay the more likely you are to pass and, in this case, get a job. That is their business. Just as competent people do not need to spend over £7K for a PPL, you needn't waste over £70k on an ATPL with, merely, the prospect of a job. However, some people wouldn't pass either, even if they spent £700k !

A general observation is that the formerly cosy professional training market has become competitive and cut-throat and it seems that the old firms can't, or don't wish to, compete on price. They may still offer 'ordinary' courses, although even those are relatively expensive, but it seems that OATS now target those who could and might pay very much more than most. Whether any wery wich Wannabe who trains at OATS is sensible or stupid, in every sense, is a matter of opinion and individual ability.

BTW, am I the only one who finds the term 'self-sponsored' an insulting and laughable description of customers?

P.S. This is an interesting and useful topic for many, so don't be diverted by Moroner or the stooges.

I, like Rich Tea, resent being called an ignorant idiot by someone who struggles to command the English language, let alone anything else. :mad:

I have spent a lot of time and effort looking at the various options available for ATPL training and the fact is that some schools are better than others. Period. OATS is certainly, in my opinion, one of the better ones - but there are others out there.

People in this post have been saying that you can go elsewhere and get the same licences for a lot cheaper. Fair enough, but in the majority of cases, what you are getting is the licence and nothing more. The same applies to FAA licences - as WWW says, they are not worth the paper they are written on in the EU. The reason OATS' ATPL course is more expensive is because you go on and above the minimum requirements (The MCC course alone is 20hrs in a new 737 sim). That, in my book, equates to a better chance of getting a job. Couple this with the right personal qualities and as far as I can see, you're in with a chance.

If you know anything about business, you will know that every FTO is there first and foremost to make money. That is the nature of the business. Without it they go bust, as recent events have sadly proved. What I believe I should be looking for in an FTO is, therefore, one which has a sound financial base (claim's that OATS are nearly bankrupt are completely without basis and untrue) but one that couples this with good results and job prospects.

No one here who is thinking of going to OATS has stated that it is brilliant and everywhere else is rubbish. That is a ridiculous suggestion. When I found this partnership scheme cost 65k I nearly fell off this chair. Like all of the schools, it has its good and bad points and it is upto the individual to find what is best for them. If that is OATS then they are not a mug for paying the money, because if they can afford it, to me it looks worth it.

As for myself, I will continue to look until I decide which is the best one for me.

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: bow5 ]

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[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

Murray, you've misunderstood me. Check my early replies, I agree with you. I just don't like being called a fool because i'm thinking of attending a training school that others deem 'to be not right for them therefore not right for anyone'. On the face of it, 65k seems ridiculous and way out of my grasp but there does seem to be more to it than that.

54k for the now 'basic' ATPL course is way in excess of a lot of other schools. However, as far as that particular course as a standalone was concerned, I was impressed with it and with a bit of creative accounting etc. I could have just about stretched to it.

However, paying a full 65k is too much. What gripes even more is that they expect you to pay accomodation on top of that! What we must bare in mind, however, is that the chap from OATS said it will most likely be run as a part sponsorship with the participating airlines, and thus the cost to the student would be more like 30-35k. We'll wait and see on that one.

If this is not the case then 65k + living costs is beyond just about everyone. It certainly is for me. I definately do not have the inclination to part with that kind of money for a job, no matter how much I want to do it. It's totally ridiculous. I wouldn't mind as much if they could actually guarentee you anything, but they can't. An interview, great as it is, is not a job.

What I do know for certain though, is that if I go to Oxford now, I will not be doing the ATPL course because in my view, Oxford themselves have devalued it greatly by running it alongside the new scheme. The same goes for the modular course.

Like I've already said, I had pretty much made up my mind to go to Oxford for the integrated course if I wasn't successful in gaining sponsorship. This change in OATS policy has made me think again.

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: bow5 ]

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[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Murray_NN ]

My general feeling when visiting OATS as a potential self-funding student several months ago was one of a 'second rate citizen' amongst the vast numbers of Airline Cadets. If I were to sign up now, it would cost me another 6K to become a 'third rate' trainee..........er, no thanks Oxford!

I'll save a few grand and go elsewhere, where the sun shines, and I have no worries about finding money for a roof over my head, and food in my belly! :cool:

Why is everyone so desperate to go straight from a seneca into a 747? Chill out a little, after your ATPL's spend a few quid on a QFI ticket instead (not the most appealing job to some, myself included, but there are plenty of jobs out there), and get some real flying experience. :eek: Or go to the states and get some cheap Twin-Time. Perhapse most importantly, get to know people!

After all, how many University students graduate into a £60k per year job?....not many! Take it one step at a time and one day you will arrive. ;)

Sound advice from Window-Seat IMHO.

On the subject of HSBC loans:

I recieve, quite regularly, e-mails from folks wanting to know tips and info on getting a Professional Studies Loan. So to save replying to all and sundry I will put my views and experience down on this thread seeing as there is a big reference to PSLs on this topic.

You can borrow £60k+ from HSBC but you will need security (house is the most popular) and you will need a sound business plan and the 'right approach'. It is true that I do know of people who have borrowed in excess of £60k and yes the interest is quite alot! ;)
In order to apply for a PSL you should call your nearest branch telling them you would like to apply for a PSL and how much! Then ask for an interview with someone who is authorised to grant the loan.
Take your business plan and completed application form (available in most branches) and dress in smart business wear. If your parents are kind enough to offer security then take along one of them to inforce the commitment they are offering. This will help alot as the bank will see that you all mean business.
Set out your plan and make a big effort to get on with the manager seeing you. Common sense really.

If you are struggling to get security on a loan of Ab-initio proportions then you will struggle to get the loan full stop. Unless you have a degree and/ or an offer of an interview from an airline then I think you will be shown the door pretty quickly. I may be wrong but if you were a bank manager would you go for it? Perhaps not.

The business plan needs to include all the nessesary information including; Course cost, living expenses, travel expenses, what the course involves (bung in the brochure!), what you can *expect* to earn in that first job you're going to walk into straight after training and basically other usefull info (if you can find it) such as average pilot salaries, employment statistics and so on....

You can borrow alot on PSLs - just ask and see.

VFE.

[ 29 August 2001: Message edited by: VFE ]

Pub and beer. Just flicked throught this thread. 65K?!?!!? 75K?!?!? Are you guys mad!!!? to consider parting with this kind of money to train for a job where you can earn enough money to pay tax!! ?? ...

If the 'only' way to get 'in' is this way the praise be! There will indeed be a pilot shortage! Any company offering a service is also a company that exists to make money. Normal stuff. To have gone under recently; competetive market perhaps; maybe the bigger (bank balance and a little cash injection ) has helped some survive JAA approval where others have ultimately failed,

Been to pub remember .. losing thread but £65k ???. If they are that good !? then pay by the day not all or even half or even quarter at once. If you are daft/rich enough to consider paying these kind of sums out ( enough to buy a row of houses in Mansfield!) cover your self and pay, in advance only for the next second of 'Quality Tuition'.

Even then ... 65 K are you mad? You are in it because you like flying ? ... buy plane instead

So, so strange....let me get this correct....for 54,000 you are 'ready' for the airlines and for 65,000 you are even 'MORE READY' for the airlines :rolleyes:
I heard a rumour that in a few months OATS is offering a course for 70,000 ....when you've completed that, your 'SUPER, EXTRA READY' fot the airlines!!
I think that course is offering a consultation on 'dress before the interview'
That's amazing :eek:
OATS really has got people where they want eh, paying 11,000.00 for an interview!
Yeah yeah yeah, I know, I hear you saying it already....if you had 65,000 you'd be there too.....
Dam right ;) I'd pay more...if I had it of course.
I say it doesn't matter how you get there, if it's gunna be, then it's gunna be :p

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: knighty ]

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: knighty ]

Even if I had £65,000, which I don't, I would rather pay for an integrated course at another school, preferably one in the sun with accommodation included, or I'd pay £35,000 for modular plus FI(R) rating and, even if I couldn't get a job for a while, I'd still have £30,000 which would last me a while in living expenses.

Being unemployed for a while would damage my pride less than giving in and paying way over the odds for an ATPL at OATS. 2 reasons:

1. I do not want to swell OATS' coffers with even a penny of my money (they did manage to squeeze a bit out of me for the British Midland selection procedure - but that's it!)

2. If I did succumb, I'd feel like I was perpetuating the problem for future wannabes. People have repetitively said that airlines will not pay anything for pilots as long as we are daft enough to pay for it ourselves. The same goes for OATS - if they keep putting up the price and we keep paying it, then it'll just get worse!

TB

Some of you have asked me to reply to points, so I am. Usual disclaimers - I am not trying to advertise the course, merely to reply to criticism. These are my own views and are not management approved; I am writing as a private individual, albeit one with knowledge of the company.

To answer bow5 and RichTea's point - Yes, I certainly think that the 4 airlines which have already signed up to the Partnership Programme (bmi British Midland, British European, KLM (UK), and Channel Express) will look no further for their ab-initio entrants.

Look at it from their point of view. For any business, recruiting anyone, whether a pilot or someone to clean the loos, is a very iffy procedure. It costs money to place adverts, vet CVs, compile short lists, arrange interviews, set up psychmetric testing, hold a 3-day course, etc. Even then, you don't know what you're getting until you've actually seen them in employment for a while. Some people can put on quite a good act for a few days. Even after all this, once you've made the best possible choice from the information available to you at the time, not all the sponsored students hack it. A small proportion of our airline-sponsored students have their sponsorship withdrawn for not achieving the required standard. It's not that they are not achieving the standard to become a pilot - they all get licences - it's that they are not achieving the standard required to be a BA, Aer Lingus, or bmi pilot. That's a higher standard -- right now!

Compare this with what the Partnership airlines will be getting under the new scheme. The students will be selected but selection won't be the airlines' resonsibilty (or expense). The students will have been on the course for some months before they are considered by the Partnership airlines. Any weaknesses will have already become apparent. The airlines will not have to bear the cost of sponsoring students not up to their high standards. There will be a comprehensive 5 page report on each student (everyone at Oxford gets this, not just the new course) which will cover all exam results, flying grades at all phases of the course, character sketches by several ground school and flying instructors and summaries by the CGI and the CFI - covering 6-9 months of actual performance. Not too much of an unknown quantity there!

If you were a Partnership airline, wouldn't you prefer that as an option? You'd far rather pay, say, £30K sponsorship per student once you knew that they were a good bet than £50K for what's basically a bit of a gamble at the start of the course.

This does not mean that it you do the standard ATPL course you won't get a job. Only 4 airlines are current Partnership Programme members. There are plenty of other airlines out there. We placed half a dozen recent graduates with Ryanair recently - by direct contact. We'll do that for anyone who we think worth recommending on the standard ATPL course.

As for the rest of you who keep whingeing about the "£75K" price, didn't you read my earlier posting? Pilots are supposed to be able to be able to pick out the salient points from a mass of information. Also, you should only need to tell a pilot something once. Good pilots stay level-headed, not heated with emotion, and they don't get drunk. It won't cost you £65K in fees if you don't get a job, because you'll have transferred to the standard ATPL course at a lower price. It'll cost you even less if you hack the course because we expect the Partnership airlines to sponsor you once they've taken you on. I shouldn't need to make this point again. If you can't take it in after being told twice, perhaps you're not very suitable pilot material.

Paul Hickley

Hi,

Just wondered if someone can answer me this...if you were to do your PPL at a local school nearby and then build up your hours to the standard 150 ok, after this you would go to say OATS, complete the ground school there full time, and then complete the CPL/IR and MCC back to back but under modular prices once the ground school is finished. Would the airlines look at you any different? and would you be able to get recommendations from the school to various airlines??

:confused:

Thanks for that Paul - I was preparing to do a bit of counterbalancing but there is no need now.

I can see the logic of the scheme. Could be devisive I imagine on the ground but then students would be best advised to think of their training AS a competition - albeit a friendly one.

I think the old style CTC airline placement scheme was a better deal but that seems to have died a death.

Personally I'd like to see all the airlines stop sponsoring altogether in their current form. Instead they could pick up student half way through their courses and sponsor them from that point. Much easier to select someone on the basis of a couple of months groundschool and the first 50hrs of flying done.

Then utilise the instructors to make the assessments...

The students would all be people who had made a commitment to aviation rather than just filled out a form they found in the careers office. The instructors would have their job role enhanced. The students would have better motivation to work hard - and SOME need that. The training risk for the airlines is reduced and everyones happy...

When I'm in charge of the CAA...

;)

WWW

I fool and his money ... - seems to spring to mind .

Paul,

No need to get shirty. Having read your initial response again, I can say that you didn't already tell us that those who didn't get jobs would be transferred to the standard ATPL.

What you did say was that those who weren't hacking it, that is, achieving at least 85% in flight tests and exams, would get dropped to the standard course. This is a different point altogether.

If you are now saying that those who don't get jobs will get £11K back, then fine, but you only said it once not twice.

As for the possibility of the airlines deciding to part-sponsor candidates when they are already on the course, this is still only a possibility, so there is a chance that a candidate will stay on the higher course, get a job but not be part-sponsored, hence will still end up with a £65K + food + lodgings -sized loan to pay off.

Judging by the starting salaries of most airlines, this means a large chunk of money to come out of their salaries each month, so you can understand why they are budgeting on the worst case scenario rather than assuming that the actual cost will be less due to getting part-sponsored, or dropped to the standard course.

TB

You can pay as much as you like for air training and go to any school however nor Oxford or any other school can guarantee a job. OATS are using the fact they are in (near) Oxford and commanding high prices due to this, similar to what universities there do with oversea students. I had a few lessons there and it's not particualry great, you have to wait for instructors due to over runs and the facilties are naff. People who get these massive loans are treading on thin ice, at the end of it all you might not get a job an be lumbered with a huge debt with interest mounting on it. Shop around and always have a backup plane. Not being negetive but several friends have gone down this road and not got there and been straddled with debt. I hope everyone success it what they because if you don't try you'll never suceed.