As the Head of sales & Marketing at Oxford I have looked through this chain with Interest. I would like thank Paul for his timely comments and if anyone wants to email me for information (correct and official) I will be more than happy to answer them. One one technical point, all students who pass the Assessment, which is done independantly from Oxford, will be seen by ALL the Partner airlines before they actually start the course. This might have cost £275 for the priviledge, but you will know what you are capable of and what the airlines are wanting before you start.

<deleted>

Mormoner - I can play this game all day long matey.

Now either play nicely or I'll ban you.

Warmest regards,


Wee Weasley Welshman

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

Richard

I can see why this scheme might be attractive to the airlines, but I'm dubious about the prospect of 'partners' retrospectively sponsoring students to the tune of 30K.

A student who's embarked on a self-sponsored integrated course has surely already proved that they have access to the funds necessary to obtain the precious tickets. They've also proved that they're desperate for a flying job. Given both these factors, why would a chief pilot feel the need to part with 30k to get that student into his/her airline? Sure the student might have a better chance of employment thanks to the partnership program, but are you really expecting to be able to generate a competitive marketplace for self-sponsored students within OAT?

If it's possible then that's good news for everyone, but I think I'd be wanting some kind of guarantee for 65k

SF

I notice on another thread that an organisation offering 'airline preparation' is being slated because none of the staff have any airline experience. Perhaps the Head of Sales and Marketing would like to tell us how many of OAT's flight instructors have any airline experience (corporate flying in a twin piston doesn't count). Unless they've had a major recruiting drive in the last three months since I left, there's only a couple of FIs with any commercial aviation experience whatsoever, it's now all ex-service or ex-flying club - the perfect place to prepare one for the airlines I would have thought. Admittedly some of the STIs are ex-airline (BEA, BOAC, that sort of thing).

On an allied subject, I'd be a bit wary about the claims of a '737 simulator' - they ain't got one. What they have is a Frasca FNPT (Flight Navigation Procedure Trainer) configured as a glass cockpit 737, same as WMU with a similar (un)serviceability record by all accounts.

As to the 'partner' airlines looking no further for their ab-initio entrants - if you believe that then I have this car you might be interested in, nice little runner, one lady owner, only used it a weekends.

Hmm...this Mormoner chap. Can volenteer to kick the **** out of him coz I've just returned from the pub and fancy hearing his FranoYanky squeals as true Brit fist hits his fat gob.

God Save the Queen.

edited due to Stella Artois enthusiam

[ 30 August 2001: Message edited by: Blackshirt ]

Question for the OATS guys - Will the offer from airlines to part sponsor a student during the course be subject to their usual age criteria? I only ask because it seems few airlines will (fully) sponsor anyone older than 28 - just wondering if the same applies here?

Desk-pilot

as an italian I think I'm one of the few lucky EU citizen to be able to complete a CPL/IR+MCC+T/R on heavy jet for less than 70k euro and without having to comply with this JAA-hell, which is what I'm trying to do before jars will destroy aviation here too. About pilot shortage I think this is not true, airlines are not short of pilots, they are short of pilots willing to pay a load of money+accepting the risk not to get the job. I don't know why there are a lot of guys willing to pay 75k pound for a job (not granted). here in italy a f/o usually gets about 2500-3500 euros less 50% taxes and maybe even bonding. with 20k you can attend a private university and get a master degree and then get a 5000 euros x month job (yes I know we love flying).
so are we going to madness? alitalia started its own school asking 80k euros for ab-initio+mcc without type rating and without job, and they are full.
I can't understand why.
many airtaxi companies here do not have payed f/o they only have f/o who pay for flying.
an instructor of mine uses to say:"working as a pilot is for rich people but rich people are too clever to work as a pilot".
bye

Rolling Circle....OATS have, according to 'Pilot' magazine, just purchased a 737-400 sim at the princely sum of $4million.

Paul, thankyou for the response on some of the points raised. Your closing argument about people 'not being pilot material' becasue they had mis-read your post was rather childish though.

Like I said in one of my earlier threads, and as has become more apparent over this thread, there is obviously more to this than a student stumping up 65k for an ATPL course.

If these airlines value quality applicants why do they select only the wealthy ?

£75K Bank Balance => Quality Applicant :(

They are sacrificing applicant quality for low training costs - which is contrary to the stated objectives above

Oxford aviation, I need you bank account number for a transfer of 65K.I've decided that I want be an airline pilot.I don't want to go to the USA, they don't know to fly there and the training cost only 15K.
Disregard people posting here, they don't know what the are talking about.I'm sure you are the best school in the world.
sincerely,
a futur B777 pilot
:)

Quoting Paul Hickley:

"...you should only need to tell a pilot something once...If you can't take it in after being told twice, perhaps you're not very suitable pilot material"

Does anyone else think Ronchonner/Arnaud/Mormoner/Trouduc fits into this category?

WE DON'T HAVE GREEN CARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
FAA LICENCE WORTH ****** ALL IN UK!!!!!!!

TB

As a retired 767 Captain who came up the self-improver route in the 1970's, I would be extremely wary of parting with £65 for an ATPL course. I worked in Holland for a number of years and most of my young co-pilots came from wealthy families. It was almost impossible for anyone without large financial resources to break into the airlines other than being a KLM cadet. With the new JAR's coming into effect and no more self-improvers coming through the system, I hate to predict the future. It really is a jungle out there lads. I worked for 10 airlines that went bust. To take on such a high level of debt (and remember you have to repay your debt out of taxed income) in the present economic climate is just too risky. I would not contemplate a career in aviation today unless it is paid for by an airline sponsorship scheme or the military. Also, if you get a job with an airline, they will bond you up to the eyeballs. Would I do it all again...probably not. If you want to fly get a good job and hire a light aircraft..

NIGHTFLYER, thanks for the encouragement! ;)

where does a working class lad find nearly 70 grand. does any rich people out there want to lend me 30 grand. thats all i need. ill say it again. because it is easy, thats all i need. :(

Well here we are, some 30 hours later and no response from the great OAT Sales and Marketing. No surprises there then!

bow5 - Having paid Frasca $4m I'm sure that the marketing department of OAT would like to think that they have a simulator, but they don't. What they have is actually approved as a FNPT II (MCC), no better than the fixed base FTDs at LGU, AFT and 4 Forces. The words 'taken' 'for' and 'ride' spring to mind. Let's hear it for Rudi!!

RJA, who said he is head of b..... at OATS, has posted no defence or description of their sales and marketing strategy but simply solicits questions- no doubt so that he can then work on any punters in private.
This topic contains no individual customer complaint, which might become a public pissing-match that OATS would wish to avoid.
So, apart from a promise that you will be seen by some airlines with no guarantee of anything, why do OATS say nothing about why their course is worth a small fortune?
Is the answer that there is nothing to say?

Sales & Marketing at Oxford ;
Let's hope that you cross the t's and dot the i's before the CAA come to visit this week when they ask (and they will) why you have too few instructors (or is it too many students) resulting in some (modular) students flying 5 hours a month.
The students and instructors will only put up with your games for so long.
One would almost think you were on commission per student.

With just a little foresight, effective management, some credible leadership, (and the same superb instructors) you really could be the best.

If I had to do it all again I'd go elsewhere and do it in half the time. :(

[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: Base leg ]

As Stephen Fry said, 'Oxford is a right dump!' Enough said.

It is not suprising that Oxford have no instructors. Why sweat your guts out for a CPL (costing £60K) and then end up instructing.! The self-improver route has always been the source of instructors that train new pilots. The CAA in its wisdom have stopped all that.A far more serious situation than the qualified pilot shortage is a shortage of flying instructors. Just you wait..you ain't seen nothing yet.

bow5 - Thanks for your sensible and appraising approach. However, I completely defend my remark about concentrating and thinking. I don't for a moment think that it was childish. This is a game for adults. The standards ARE high. It's not like PPL flying. If someone isn't up to it, they're in the wrong business. Become a hairdresser, a librarian, a market gardener, or whatever - something more suited to their talents. Not better. Not worse. I'm not judgemental. Just something more suited to that individual's talents. Good pilots CAN concentrate. They DO take things in first time. Part of the problem with many of the contributors to this thread is that they think that mere possession of a licence gives them a right to an easy living. Life isn't like that. You have to persuade an employer that you're good - not merely good, but better than the competition. You won't do that if you're a woolly thinker who needs to be told things twice. No, on balance, I think that it was a mature and well-considered remark. I try not to make any other kind.

Token bird - I'm not getting shirty. I just expect higher standards of debate and understanding from would-be pilots. (See previous paragraph). May I also correct a point? I did not say that those who don't get jobs will be transferred to the standard ATPL course and get £11K back. What I said was that I believed that the course would not actually cost £65K to any student. My reasons are as follows:- If you get offered a contract, you will be offered some sponsorship money from the time you are taken on. Because I believe that everyone who completes this course WILL get a job, the only people who don't get a job will be those who have been withdrawn from the Partnership course - in which case, it will have cost them less than £65K to complete their ATPL.

Neil767 - Prior to this course, I would have agreed with you that neither Oxford nor any other school could have guaranteed a job. But I believe that this course may be different because it will make any graduate too hot a property to pass over. This will not be particularly because of the instruction (though this will help), but because of the calibre of the students. Careful selection, 85% or better in every exam, good flying grade, full and detailed reports - this is BA, Aer Lingus, or bmi sponsored standard. They'll be snapped up. I agree, that's not a 100% guarantee - but it's a damned high probability.

To everyone - I now intend to withdraw from this particular thread. The arguments are becoming circular and repetitive and I don't think we are going to see much else that is new. I just hope that those readers appraising the information to be found here will note that when I (and many others not hostile to the idea) have posted, our contributions are cogent and backed up with reasons and arguments. Many of these points are then dismissed by knockers with a snide comment about Oxford, a gibe, or an accusation against my integrity, and (most importantly), no reasoned argument. A case in point is when I explained (in response to a question) why I thought that the Partnership airlines would look no further for their ab initio entrants. I gave a couple of paragraphs explanation why I thought this would be the case. Someone responded with a sneer about a used car. No attempt at fact, logic, or reason. It's not the only case - just one of many examples.

This isn't too much of a problem because I believe that any reader with intelligence and judgement will be perfectly capable of forming his own opinions. and it's only those who do have intelligence and judgement who are the right people to be the next generation of airline pilots.

Finally, whatever you or I think, however well argued, is mere speculation. The only proof of the pudding will be in about a year from now when the first 18 Partnership cadets graduate. If, as I believe, all 18 of them have a contract and part sponsorship, they will be the winners. The moaners, the whingers, the pessimists, the knockers will be what, in most cases, their postings on this site show them to be already - LOS....... No, I won't spell it out, it's too unkind. Work it out for yourselves.

See you again on another thread sometime.

All the best,

Paul Hickley

[ 01 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]

[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: Paul Hickley, Gen Nav Spec, Oxford ]

Goodbye but not thank you, Paul.
So, why did he and other OATS ignore my and other queries? If the cap fits?
Used-car was very appropriate...
You could get plenty for £65 but best not buy from the salesmen at OATS.

Just a small question. Why should OATS succeed with this sort of scheme when AFT scrapped their similar scheme 6 months ago?

Wee Weasley Welshman is on record as saying that he didn't think that this sort of scheme was viable.
(extract from Atlantic pulls the Plug )

[ 02 September 2001: Message edited by: Flypuppy ]

Nightflyer

Good Post

I agree - the instructor shortage is
beginning to bite

Hourly rates will have to improve to justify the extra training costs imposed by JAR

This is a chronic problem. Shortages in the
past have been resolved in periods of economic downturn - many employers are gambling on a recession to provide cheap flight crew at all levels

The trouble is .. It ISNT happening

In fact City analysts are predicting rapidly
rising share prices toward the end of 2001.

Then the fun starts..

Sunday Telegraph 020901

Details follow..

EXPERTS are predicting a stock-market rally in the coming months that could lead to the market rising by 21% by the end of the year.
The big City investment banks are united in predicting that the market will be higher by the end of December, despite its recent drubbing and a succession of profit warnings.
Last week, the London market took another battering when falls on Wall Street sent share prices tumbling. The FTSE 100 index of the biggest shares finished the week at 5,345 - near its three-year low.
Although experts are unwilling to say that the market has hit the bottom, most expect considerable progress before the year ends. Everything, however, depends on a recovery in America, which would help to propel the British market out of its current lows.
Steve Russell, a British equity strategist at HSBC, said: "We anticipate a market rally as we pass through the low point of the American cycle in September and October. The recent downturn in Britain's market is being driven more by negative sentiment in America than domestic woes."
HSBC expects the FTSE 100 to hit 6,500 by the end of the year - one of the more optimistic predictions.
An upturn in the American economy may, however, seem improbable in the wake of all the bad news that came out of Wall Street last week. On Wednesday the American government reported the slowest economic growth in eight years. Gross domestic product figures for the three months to June were revised down to 0.2% from 0.7%. Investors took this as a sign that a recovery was still a long way off.
But expectations are growing that the Federal Reserve's policy of aggressively cutting interest rates could start to have an impact on the American economy.
America's central bank has cut rates seven times in the past eight months - so far, to no effect. But historically, the benefits of lower interest rates have taken six to nine months to filter through to the economy.
Hasan Tevfik, equity strategist at Credit Suisse First Boston, predicts an end-of-year level of 6,000. He said: "The interest-rate cuts in America will start to feed through over the next few months. This will signal a turnround in the American economy and will boost the markets in Britain and Europe."
Private investors already in the market are advised to sit tight. Historically, some of the sharpest rises occur just after the market hits its low point, which even the finest minds in the country cannot predict with any accuracy.
Anna Bowes of Chase de Vere, an independent financial adviser, said: "There is no point trying to time the market by selling out and then buying back in when you think the time is right. The market is always full of surprises."
The bottom of the current downturn was initially called back in March. It caused the FTSE 100 to rally by more than 10%. But prices quickly fell back after it became clear that worse news was still to come.
Hilary Cook of Barclays Stockbrokers said nervous investors should stay out of the market until the economic outlook is clearer. "We expect the FTSE to be at 5,900 by the end of the year. There is upside from these levels, but it is going to be a rocky ride."
Jeremy Batstone, head of research at NatWest Stockbrokers, is even more cautious. Although his company is predicting an end-of-year FTSE level of 6,300, he believes this may be difficult to achieve given current market conditions. He said: "I can't see the markets moving out of this range because corporate profits will continue to be eroded."
Even so, Batstone believes there is money to be made from shares for braver investors. He favours defensive stocks such as utility firms and drug companies. Even though these have performed well over the past 18 months and now look expensive, he said it was too early to move into cyclical shares that would benefit most when the economy staged a recovery.
When there are signs that the economy is stabilising, investors are advised to start buying stocks such as housebuilders, chemical firms and engineering companies, as these should be among the first to feel the effects of a pick-up.
But even if the market rallies, investors should not expect the returns they have enjoyed over the past two decades.
Low inflation means prices are expected to rise more slowly than in the past, with most experts predicting returns of much less than 10% a year.

Paul, Doubt you'll read this but thanks again for your response. I absolutely agree with you about some people not being cut out for being a pilot. It is a fact of life. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses - you just have to channel them the right way. When I went to RAF Cranwell for pilot selection only 1 out of my whole intake of 35-40 got through with a real prospect of going on as a (fast jet) pilot (I, btw, passed all the aptitude tests well but was unsuitable on account of my legs being 6cm too long for a Tucano ejection seat :rolleyes: ). Some people failed all the RAF aptitude tests which, whatever people say about them, shows they are just not cut for this type of career. They may well be brilliant at something else but as a pilot it would not happen. Some people passed the pilot test but with such a low score they went on as a nav etc. That's just the way it goes. You have to accept it and get on with life.
Finally, I didn't mean your post was childish, just that it was slightly harsh to say someone could not be a pilot because they mis-read a post on an internet site.

Cheers again for your reply.

Bottom Line

I am going to the states to do all my training at a JAR-FCL approved FTO.

It will cost me £30k instead of £65k.

The airlines are no different from any other corporation - if you are impressive enough you will get a job.

Pass first time - get over 85% - no problem (gulp!!!).

If I dont get a job for a year - no big deal I have £35k left in my pocket to either sit on my ar*e or I can build my hours as an instructor.

You are all worrying too much - if you can afford it do the course at Oxford - simply because of the higher number of introductions to Airlines and the guarantee that you will be geeting excellent instruction. Plus the name can't hinder you.

I, on the other hand cannot afford £65k, therefore I will just have to work harder and perform better.

Best of luck to all of you - we are all quite mad but lifes too bloody short to sit festering behind a desk for ever.

See you all at 35,000 feet.

Phil

I have followed this thread with some interest, and I've noticed, as Paul said above, that it's populated by two distinctly different groups. Those who have a coherent argument, and those whose posts are somewhat emotional and irrational.
Oxford Air Training School is a commercial establishment. It exists to make money. It is not a charity for would-be airline pilots. It makes money both from those it trains and those who buy its products. It has, in general, a good reputation with both and it will seek to continue that. It will not do so by peddling dodgy products which are perceived as useless to the airline community.
To achieve that while not excluding those who are determined to get an ATPL whatever their ability, Oxford has chosen to offer an aptitude-tested deluxe course for those it is most confident will be good recruits into the airlines. If the course works, both the airlines and the students will be happy, and Oxford will make a profit.
I don't see any way in which this course will disadvantage those who choose not to do it, and there are still plenty of other ways of getting your ATPL without spending this kind of money - assuming that it does finally cost the student the £65k quoted. Oxford's 18 graduates per course are not going to flood the market.
The bottom line, ladies and gentlemen, as that the best people will, in general, be the most successful in the job market. If you have little aptitude but lots of money and determination you may well achieve an ATPL, but don't expect me to employ and fly with you! There is no God-given right to a flying career and, as Paul says, many would-be pilots would be better employed in another field. It's harsh but true, peeps, and you just have to accept it.

I cant help thinking that because of the huge
surplus of people out there with fATPLs the
hoops are raised purely to whittle down numbers at the selection stage rather than for any real need.

One needs a way of being perceived as the best, just to be heard above the masses, and this course is there to do that.

i.e. Throw more cash at the problem to get a solution.

Scroggs, Wee Weasley,

You moderators are just trying to sell british flying schools. You neither care or
are bothered by the amount of debt a potential student can aquire. The same threads are played out daily on this forum,
i.e. "Borrow the money, sell your granny, pawn your mum's jewellery...!". You do not
give a thought to the consequences of your actions. People with little knowledge of aviation come onto this forum to find out how to become a professional pilot. All they read is from the likes of you both saying "beg, borrow and steal the money" because one day 'son' you will make it. You say it is better to have tried and failed, this 'may' be true, but then the poor student is left 'having failed' with a 60 grand millstone round his neck with no means of paying for it. Bankruptcy soon follows, parents house gets re-possessed because they were loan guarantors.

You should point out the facts to the public.
This is a public forum and you, yes 'you' moderators have a duty to tell the facts as un-biased as possible.

In my opinion you do not at the moment, you are 'failing' therefore when someone questions the training system you simply close the thread.

Someone recently got into trouble for advertising a flight computer on this forum as 'advertising' is not allowed, so you say.

You are 'advertising' these british flying schools daily by constantly supporting the parting of some 60 thousand pounds or so.

Eh? :confused:

Standby.

WWW

Perhaps you can't read?????!!!!

One of the reasons the moderators get flack here on this forum is that they have a directive to provide a regular and healthy dose of reality.

They have been through the system - right the way through and are working with UK based all jet carriers. The most significant reason as to why they are exposed to the aggro is because they are effectively lone voices. There are only a handful of qualified and employed airline people who regularly grace this particular forum.

Everyone else is either going through the system and trying to justify their decisions or, no matter how well intentioned, paying their mortgage with your money.

After many years of running this place and seeing several 'generations' of wannabees pass through I've developed a few ideas regarding this lack of support.

Established pro's get more than a little uncomfortable here. It goes along the lines of, ''Was I really like that?' They also get uncomfortable because they had every single complaint regarding cost, exams and the structure of the system you have.

However, the moment they get that first job every bit of it is forgotten. The problems, iniquities and injustices are left behind and mentally ticked off under the heading of far too difficult to change.

With just a very few honourable exceptions you will all be the same.

You will forget. You will never, ever write a letter detailing what you see as the problems to anyone who can change it. Venting here on PPRuNe is a cop out.

You will throw yourself into your new life as an airline pilot, your wannabee problems fading rapidly into the distance.
The vast majority of you will follow this well established path. That is just the way it works.

And so it will continue here, just a few helpful professional aviators assisting the next lot passing through.

Go ahead, criticise if you want but before hitting the submit button just reread your post as if you were a pro.

Would you bother replying? Would you even bother coming on this forum?? The evidence is very clear that they won't and don't. Next time you write are you reducing this long term problem or just reinforcing it?

Rob

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Towers ]

Well said PPrune Towers. :)

But the main issue here is surely the escalating costs of aviation training.
65K is far too much money to be spending on training of this kind!

If you were to get (as most others have said) a Type Rating or some invaluable experience, then this course would most probably be worth the money.

It is in 'MY OPINION' Oxfords attempt at trying to make more money out of people who are 'chasing a dream'.
If for example we could all have a dream come true, whatever it may be, then we would probably pay for it.
Even with this course your dream is not guarenteed to bcome reality. So this makes me question is it really worth the money? I think not.

I can only say i have not heard a positive thing said about Oxford since i started flying 2 years ago.

The words 'Trading on a name' spring to mind! :D

I think we are all victims of the shiny promo papers and the big pictures of pilots with the two Gold epulettes.
You only have to look at Multiflight to see how a good marketing department works.

Any way i hope thats not too boring.

FAO Scroggs- My first sensible post! :D What do you think? Can i be an Airline Pilot now please? :p :p :D :p

Having spent well over an hour reading this thread because it was brought to my attention due to the comments made by 'Crash Barrier' I feel it may be time to step in and just back up what Robin (PPRuNe Towers), Tim (Scroggs) and Andy (WWW) have been saying. As has been mentioned, this thread appears to be going round in circles and is in need of some new direction or just leaving alone to disappear with time.

Before anyone tries to accuse the moderators of only promoting UK flying schools and twisting reasoning capabilities by brainwashing them into parting with 65K+ of borrowed money you should remember that we do not provide recommendations for anyone but we will draw on our own experiences and impressions of organisations and companies we have worked for. As Robin has stated, no too many pilots who have made it through all the hoops and hurdles that you face as a wannabe bother much with this forum once they have made it to that first jet job.

I appoint moderators for the various forums because of their abilities to not only maintain a neutral point of view when it comes to policing the forum but also their experience in the real world and their ability to make their points clearly in writing, remembering all the time that it is far more difficult to express yourself through a keyboard than it is to speak to someone face to face.

The Wannabes forum was created because I remember when I was thinking about taking the plunge and commiting to training for my commercial license how desperate it was to glean any information outside of the brochures that the FTO's sent you. There was almost nothing of independant value out there. After I had struggled into my first paying job and I had set up PPRuNe, one of the forst things I decided to do was pass on my experiences and encourage others who were in a similar situation.

Andy, when I asked him to help out with the moderating was still desperately trying to get a sponsorship for his training yet he still took time to not only enlighten all of us about his experiences, both the rewarding ones and the utterly disappointing ones but he went on to collate so much of the information that is now available to all the wannabes who have followed since whether it is about interviews or dealing with the CAA and the new JARS. He has been through the 'self improver' route including instructing for both a flying club and one of the larger, corporate backed FTO's and is now learning a whole new set of tricks in the RHS of a B737.

Robin, who has a wealth of experience in aviation, never mind his more 'murky' ;) past in education (amongst other things) has self improved and now commands a B737. Tim, who has progressed through the military and now flies a B747 and also the other 'guest' moderators such as John (Hamrah) who has been flying forever and as well as being Chief Pilot for a major UK low cost airline and is now Director of Flight Operations for another well established UK airline all give up a lot of their own spare time to keep an eye on this forum and try to make sure that everyone gets a fair say and try to keep the arguments and discussion on track. There will always be the odd imbecile who has nothing constructive to say and is only able to make immature comments but as long as most people ignore them and stick to the subject the moderators will deal with them.

When it comes to a discussion like this one, where the implications can be costly if bad advice is given then we will keep a close eye on it. In this case, OATS is under scrutiny and their business is being debated. As as already been mentioned elsewhere, OATS are primarily in business to make a profit whilst providing a service to both the airlines and the wannabes. There is nothing wrong with this and because the market is so much more competitive these days they have to have something that makes them stand out from the crowd.

Several employees of OATS have commented on this thread and we welcome that if it is for clarification of points raised and not pure self promotion. One person has commented unofficially and stated so. Some of you do not like the way those comments were made but as I stated earlier, it is so much more difficult to express oneself through this medium and in my experience is the single biggest reason that threads degenerate because of misunderstandings and misinterpretation of tone and inflection. (As you can see, my basic 'O' Level in English doesn't help).

Those of you who attended the seminars we held at the last GatBash will remember, you heard many things from experienced airline pilots that made your hearts drop. You were told about the problems you face and the disappointments you will probably experience between the decision to start commercial pilot training and securing that first airline job. There are no guarantees.

THere are several ways to achieve your goals and some routes to them are easier and also cheaper than others. At least you have all the information available before you here. You do not have to rely solely on the glossy brochures that the FTO's produce but you can call upon your peers for a lot of the information here. You have to have the intelligence to be able to sift through it and read between the lines but all the the info you need is available.

One thing that I noted when Robin and I were invited to speak at the Flight International Crew Management Conference in February, where the theme included the shortage of pilots, and several large FTO's were also participating, was the problems that they face with regard to students who have raised the money, have the enthusiasm but lack the aptitude for a job as an airline pilot. Whilst this is possibly a subjective assessment as to 'suitablity' there is still a lot of experience in training pilots for them to be fairly secure in their judgements.

It is suprising the number of students who have done to all the trouble to raise the money for their training but lack certain elements in their personality and ability for them to ever have much of a chance of getting a job with an airline. Why some of them never bothered to at least try and find out more about their abilities by undergoing some form of aptitude and/or personality testing is unclear but they would certainly have been better off paying a bit extra to find out if they should be commiting to such an expensive course of study and training. A few are unable to finish the course but most will achieve the minimum standard to obtain an fATPL but whether they will ever get a job that pays enough to relieve them of the debts that they have incurred is questionable. A figure of around 40% of 'self sponsored' students might fall into this category was mentioned. The FTO's are not being irresponsible by taking their money because they are in business but if the students aren't honest with themselves they have no one to blame. If you are going to take a 509 course then make sure you are up to the standards required otherwise you WILL be disappointed. The few who make it onto the course mentioned in the topic of this thread will be the elite who have overcome the first hurdles of raising the money but will also have the other charachteristics that are part of the package needed to get a jet job.

Sorry if this is not what you want to hear but you have to be brutally honest with yourselves BEFORE you make that commitment.

All I can say about the subject having gone the self-improver route is to be honest with yourself about your abilities and personality. I worked my way up through night freight in small turboprops to pax and freight in heavy turboprops and now pax on heavy jets. Except for one job where I had to take some psychometric tests I have never had to pass anything except an informal interview to get the jobs. A few of the people that frequent this forum appear to me to be obsessed with analysing every detail involved with the process of deciding where to train and then they have already analysed and tried to break down every detail of what is involved in the interview process followed by the assessment process and so and so on.

You have to have 100% commitment and the ability to ride through the troughs of disappointment that you WILL experience in your chosen route. You have to have SOME personality although there is a wide range between the extremes you will encounter and most importantly you have to have the APTITUDE. Unfortunately not everyone who starts out has it and it is not something that you can learn. A good instructor will help you develop it but if you don't have it to begin with then you will probably be wasting your time. You HAVE to be HONEST with yourself and only then will you be able to start the often difficult and disheartening process of raising the money to try and reach your goal.

I would relate my experiences but things have changed so much in the last 10 years that they are not relevant any more except to state that I could not afford nor raise the money for a 509 course and I am too thick and lazy to be an instructor so I remortgaged my home and self improved by on eof the few routes that is now closed to all of you. I was 35 when I made the decision and 38 when I got my first job as an F/O so just to prove a point, there is hope for a lot of you yet.

Finally, I remember a few years ago when all this new JAA stuff was being discussed on here and how it was going to affect everyone. There were some campaigns to get people who would be affected by all the changes to write to their MP's and anyone in government who would listen, with email and postal addresses listed on PPRuNe and standard letters to use. I just wonder how many of you actually took the time to make use of the help that was provided to try and prevent some of the now closed doors to professional flying training that the new JAA rules have put in place? I seem to remember someone talking about the writing on the wall and the problems of extra expense and other hurdles that the new rules would place before all new wannabes... now who could that have been? None other than our own Wee Weasly Welshman!
:eek:

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]

Danny and Rob, thanks for that, I was taking my time to compose my thoughts and you have saved me a great deal of explanation.

I often feel I am walking a tightrope on Wannabes. On the one hand I want to say "go on - go for it!" it really is a cracking job, life isn't a dress rehersal and follow your dreams. On the other hand - its going to cost you blood, sweat and tears if everything goes well and more than likely you'll end up penniless at least for a while, unable to sleep at nights and stressed out like you can barely imagine. If a recession comes you'll regret the day you decided to try for commercial aviation as the worst move of your life.

So I try. I try to fairly emphasise the downsides but acknowledge the merits - whether that be a training route, a flying school or a particular flying job. A kind of benevolent scepticism if you will. Now I cannot always get it right and I *have* given out duff gen over the years. But its all honest to goodness well intentioned.

For the specifics of this case I take the view that OATS are not to be derided for their new scheme and that the average Wannabe has little to fear. I could never have afforded to take up the scheme myself but there ARE people out there that can and jealousy of their riches is no excuse. Those in life with the money AND the aptitude will nearly always rise above those that 'just' have the aptitude. Fact.

As for the JAA costs increases. I have made my opinion - with living examples - clear on:
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.c gi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010705&p=

Danny - I am touched that you remembered my campaigns against NVQ VTR withdrawl, flagging out and JAA implementation. At the time we did get some questions asked in high places and I - along with Hansard - have the papers to prove it :)

I agree with Capt PPRuNe's sentiments that too many people focus too keenly on the minutae of FTO comparison and Aptitude Selection. Its a kind of 'concrete' area where one almost feels there might be a 'key', a 'trick' or a 'right answer'. Truth is - there ain't.

There ARE guiding principles, common issues and things to avoid - but by their nature these are all far less attractive to pursue for the Wannabe in a hurry.

I have had dealings with an extraordinary number of young men and women pursuing their aviation dreams over the last 4 years. Some are now flying BA 757/67 out of Heathrow, some are still barely making a living flying, some have yet to complete training, many have crashed and burned with huge debts, an incredible loss of self esteem and a sense of both failure and relief about them...

Which will *you* be tonight?

I don't know, I'm talking to my trusty (rusty) monitor - you are an audience I cannot see, cannot hear. Cut me some slack. And if I can help you, advise you, I will... along with the rest of the PPRuNe Wannabe email waiting for me fresh tonight:

a) Pete_UK Where did you do your instructors rating... Mon Sept 3 2001 3k

b) admin Private Message Notification: : RN Apti... Mon Sept 3 2001 3k

c) admin Private Message Notification: : Practic... Sun Sept 2 2001 3k

d) Chris Tidd Cadet Entry and Aptitudes Sat Sept 1 2001 2k

e) ANIL SHARMA INSPIRATION Sat Sept 1 2001 5k

f) Kathy PPSC v BAe Thu Aug 30 2001 7k

g) "Capt. D.J. Rowe" RE: My posting on pprune. Thu Aug 30 2001 5k

h) "Capt. D.J. Rowe" RE: My posting on pprune. Thu Aug 30 2001 4k

i) admin Private Message Notification: : FTO Rec... Thu Aug 30 2001 3k


Keep smiling out there and good luck, see you all on a flightdeck someday,

Wee Weasley Welshman - PPRuNe's Original Wannabe

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

I think you are getting rippedoff,In the USA you can get a licence for maybe 1/3 the cost.I for one cant understand what you learn for all that money that we mear mortals dont.

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: lumbalund ]

Very interesting posts from the moderators there and very much appreciated as always.

In my view there is quite a big problem for the would be self-sponsorer in that there's very limited resources available for them to test their aptitude before they part with their money.
OK so there are the GAPAN tests at Cranwell. But these tests only assess hand-eye-foot co-ordination and number retention. That's it. No Maths and no Physics and certainly no personality testing. I am not knocking the GAPAN tests at all because without them the self-sponsorer would be well and truly up the creek without a paddle.
You do not need two A-Levels and/ or a degree to self-sponsor at any FTO. You cannot apply for sponsorship to gain experience at the interview process unless you have the above qualifications. A PPL is going to go someway in improving ones confidence for an integrated course but is it going to tell you wether you can cut it at CPL level? I doubt it.

We debated a while ago the subject of FTOs screening self-sponsored cadets and it got a little heated mainly (IMO) because the vast majority of wannabes thought it unreasonable that FTOs should test them. How mad is that? My view is that they should test us and BAE, as far as I know, are the only approved JAR integrated school to do this.
If nothing else it makes a mockery of pilot training that anyone with the money can effectively stroll into an FTO and next week be training to fly commercially without having any level of assesment made of them before they hand over their cash. Before I get shot down in flames for saying that I would like to make it clear that I don't think it is wrong of the student but wrong of the industry that this can happen. I am not saying that all FTOs should test as stringently as OATS plans to for it's new course but at least lets be put through some sort of interview/ aptitude assesment and not just be able to flash our GCSE certificates, money and be shown to our dorms.
It just doesn't seem right and I think that the JAAs should do something about it. The FTOs won't like it, the students with the money will moan about it but at least it *may* save a few more parents losing their houses and failed students being in debt for the best part of their adult lives.

I will be starting an integrated course later this month and I sat the aptitude tests and acheived a result which was enough for the FTO to offer me a place on the course.
I am greatful that they did this (they could have done more but I am greatful that they did aptitude test me), more schools should follow suit.
I only have GCSEs which I hope through private study over the past few months I have managed to improve on somewhat. I don't know for sure wether I am at the required level because it was seven years ago since I left school and to be frank - the jobs I have done (mainly music) do not require an awfull lot of numerical ability and knowledge of Physics! Well, how to lift a thirty stone Hammond Organ down three flights of stairs at 01:00 surrounded by drunk jazz fans is a bit of a mechanics poser but not at the level required by this profession I fear!
It would be nice to have the educational side of my aptitude tested. I know I may appear to be asking alot but is it really considering the profession and the money involved?

As it stands though we have to do this ourselves so if any self-sponsorers fail to either a) pay their £150 for the GAPAN tests b) Get their PPL or c) have the qualifications that will allow them to apply for sponsorship, then they really should not be going for it because, if anything, it shows they don't have the presence of mind to be responsible.

In my view the OATS scheme is a good thing. Shame about the price but that's aviation. I just hope that those who can't afford it manage to satisfy themselves of their abilities before they spend their money.

Good luck everyone,

VFE.

[ 03 September 2001: Message edited by: VFE ]

lumbalund - as has been stated many times... an FAA license is not worth the license it isn't printed on in Europe. The costs of conversion are higher than that of gaining the orginal JAA license. No amount of cheap training is therefore worth it. Even if you have a green card - you'll still be hauling regional turborprop when your EU contemporary will be flying a jet. Not to say one system is better than the other BUT its a fact that the JAA/EU system is higher cost BUT potentially higher reward.

Cheers,

WWW

I feel the need to reply, sadly.

Why oh why does a school charging 65k manage to intice so much anger and agro from you all? If you dont want to pay it, dont. If a TV channel offends you, change the channel!!!!.
Do Eton and Harrow get this much hatred for charging the earth, I flipping doubt it.
Are you being forced to pay this, erm....NO!!. If you cant afford it, go else where, pay less, you'll moan less, you'll be happier and this site might work a little better. This thread is beginning to feel like a child complaining that some-one else got more dinner then he did.

For those who can afford 65k, I'm some what envious, and I wish you the best, really i do.

For those that dont, also good luck, you'll have spare change left, like me. And if the 65k course fails, just think how much happier you'll be by saying "told you so, nanny nanny goo goo!!". Child!!!

Thankyou

An ex wannabe.

What's so special about pilots???

We just drive aeroplanes!!