Affording training /lower class.
 

Unfortuntely I don't have the luxury of having my parents fund my flying. I also do not have the A-levels to attain sponsorship throughout airlines. Are there any other options I can take, maybe getting sponsorhip by another company or something somehow? I'm willing to go into debt, possibly unrecoverable debt for this job because i know given the chance ill make it. I just need to know what my option are. I'm from a single parent family and my mother is on benefits. its virtully impossible for me to acquire the 50,000+ to do my integrated frozen ATPL.

Anybody in a similar situation or have been? I'm not doing A-level maths and physics, they were never my strong points mainly due to my school. I'm inbetween leaving A-levels and focusing on the relevent stuff i should know before joining the ATPL course, like practising maths and science. Oh and another thing, my family owns no property so i cannot hold it for assurance. I'm also 19 years of age, i feel i really should be on the road by now and that i'm running out of time.

Piloting is all i've wanted to do. I am aware that the industry is more 'who you know rather than what you know', its not too much of a big problem, but getting the money is. These oxford kids have it easy i tell you haha.

Hi

I was once in your possition, and the answer is simple.

All you need to do is get a job! earn the money and save. Thats the way I did it, and thats the way most people without any cash do it.

You are 19 and have plenty of time, theres no need to rush. Finish your education, get a job and save.

It took me 8 years to get the £50k+ required for flight training, I saved virtually every penny I earned. Yes it was hard, I had no life! but if you want it enough thats what you do.

I was one of the lucky few that completed flight training completely debt free!!

Good Luck...

Get a job and live the frugal life.

It's tough but that's the only way.... U won't get credit and you probably won't get sponsorship.

Work tremendously hard & try to save every penny.
While doing your flight training, dont look at the big flashy names, just look for those places where you can get the best training with the minimal costs.
If you're impatient just like me, then maby a bank education loan might be the way out, provided you are sure enough that you can clear yourself up from the debts soon after you are done training.

Best of Luck...I'm also on the same boat :ok:

look at modular courses instead of integrated, in other words, do the training as and when you can afford it!
I'm 25 and only just completed my ppl. Time is not ticking for you at all. Bear in mind that a lot of people don't get into flying until their 30's!

the beauty of modular training is that you don't have to wait until you have saved up all the money to start, you can get a job and start training now. If you live on the cheap, you can easily get at least a couple of lessons a month and in a years time you will have a PPL.

You can then study ATPL distance learning for under £1000 which will keep you going for another year and a half. Whilst doing this, join a flying group to build your hours cheaply and start getting to know people within aviation.

these first steps are easily attainable for anyone who wants it enough, It of course requires sacrifice, but then what doesn't!

The expensive part comes later, but you can cross that bridge when you come to it. Lets face it, you have time on your side and just now there is no rush! good luck!

regards
D-G

Edit - this is of course after you finish your A-levels! a very important point I forgot to add!

get your A-LEVELS, college degree and graduate paying job and start saving.
If you go to college and get decent job then

• save first for PPL..take a holiday for 3-4 weeks to florida and attain ppl
• come home,return to job and part time ATPL study and exams(over about 1 year) and at the same time your saving for CPL/IR.
• with ATPLs done you have something like 2 years to attain CPL..so save save save
• career break for start of cpl/ir...if loads of aviation jobs you can probably leave your job if your made too.need 3 months.

Then you are left with: Frozen ATPL, no bank loan/interest, loads of pilot jobs,
or worst case scenario: Frozen ATPL, small loan, few pilot jobs but at least career/experince to fall back on and resume normail life!!!This is what I would have done if time was turned back!:ok:

You have 36 months from the date of your last ATPL exam i believe, so 3 years to complete CPL/IR. You seriously dont need to get into debt if your smart about your choices! you have plenty of time on your hands!

Getting into debt in the current situation with no guaranteed job at the end is a bad move in my book! get a job and save! worse case scenario if you dont make it for one reason or another at least you wont be paying the debts off for the rest of your life!

Take it easy :ok:

I was in your place many years ago within the last years of college, looking through books on career options. I knew what I wanted to do since about 6 years old (strange but true) and got involved in everything to do with aircraft. When leaving college I knew that flying cost between £40,000-£100,000, but where was I going to get that sort of money?

My parents didn't assist me, so it basically meant, as stated above, get a job and start saving for a PPL. I decided not to go to Uni, as that would result in debt and I knew I would be getting into debt at some point through a flying loan. So I decided against this, to increase my chances of loan for flying (even more important in times like now with things called banks).

It's taken me 10yrs so far, but I've been patient (not been easy though). Been through a number of low points, even Sept 11th and that was a low, but kept at it. I have now achieved a PPL, Night Rating, IMC Rating (Part Sponsored btw!!) and now studying for ATPL’s with the first set of exams coming up shortly and not in debt, but in profit!!

Btw I quit my job in a recession to get the study done and go into part-time work, that says a lot in itself! But I could afford to do that and I turned a massive negative of my life for the past year into a massive positive and I feel great for doing so! :ok: ...just wasn't easy making the decision and taking the step itself, but I knew what I had to do.

I’m just pacing things for when to complete the CPL/IR/MCC and the loan will therefore be only a fraction of that massive figure of £40-100k, plus the parents are potentially willing to assist with a lower figure having done most of it yourself! :cool:

So with patience, hard work, luck and time this is still achievable. I think you’d feel a greater sense of achievement having gone through the challenge in financing it over time, rather than the parents giving you the cash on a plate and potentially having to pay them back later. I know what I’d prefer, but no one said life was easy!!

I know a quite a few pilots, most of them went through the modular route and have all made it to flying a jet.

I'd also recommend you have a look through the requirements for training each module plus having a look through the CAA's document called LASORS - this is like the bible of aviation, explaining the duration you have before each licence/rating expires - very useful info for that business/training plan! ;)

But if you want it, you’ll find a way to do it!!! :ok:

Do complete the A-levels. Time is very much on your side, the jobs market is unlikely to pick up for 3+ years. Those A-levels will potentially secure you a better job with which to fund your training. Importantly, they are also a fall back should flying not work out for whatever reason. They demonstrate to a potential employer a certain amount of ability and application.

Also, get your Class 1 medical done, before you start making career defining decisions to be a pilot.

My advice is not to get into debt.

I know one person who left school at 15 worked 60 plus hours a week cleaner, forklift truck driver, baggage handler and by the time they where 20 they had a frozen ATPL.

It all went a bit pair shaped when they lost their medical at 23. The fact that they had no debt was their saving grace. It allowed them to forge a career away from aviation.

It does happen so be sensible.

do NOT go back to doing A Levels now. Unless you're planning on going to uni, they won't help you diddly squat. In two years you'll be eligible for mature learning at uni anyway should you need it, so what's the point? Airlines don't care. What a waste of time when, as people say, you should be working and saving hard. Sounds good to an interviewer as well.

that's only my exp though, and I don't even have gcses, so excuse the bias!

why anyone would be suggesting for this guy to do a uni/college degree now is beyond me, he's already told us that every penny in his life must be earnt before it's spent, why go down a road of piling on more debt? don't go, take the sting out of the tail somewhat and do what you love. I did and it worked.

I wondered why you mentioned an integrated course. That is the most expensive option, and impossible to combine with work so requires at least a year's complete loss of income. You also say you know you'll make it. You don't, sorry to tell you. You think you will make it, but you must accept that those who don't (fewer than the pessimists here will tell you) all thought the same. Keep that in mind, it is a factor in your decisions.

As for running out of time, you're not. That feeling is good, as you will need to keep working hard and not sit back, but you do have more than adequate time to do this with hard work and sacrifice.

If you're English ignore Irishpilot and don't even think about university. A-levels might be a wise idea, but no employer I know of in European aviation requires a degree for pilots. The debt you will acquire will set your ambition back several years unless you become a lawyer, and in that case specialise in corporate law, rake in the money and enjoy flying as a hobby.

Good luck!

Hi,

I've not managed to read a lot of the replies but here's what I've done / am doing...

I started flying when I was 16, at the time I was working for £3.36 an hour at Sainsburys. My parents refused to pay a penny, and they wouldnt even take me to the nearest airfield so I had to cycle the 12 miles. It took almost 4 years to get my PPL through completly self funding. After finnishing at school, I went on to do my A-levels and then a degree (again self funded). Whilst at college/University I was working full time to pay for the flying and the education. I have now got a graduate job and am saving every penny I can for flying. I did the hour building over my time at university and also worked at the local airfield getting to know a few pilots. I am now in the process of starting my ATPLs which I hope to have done within a year.

So, as a few other people have said, earn some money and take it step by step.

Once I have done my ATPL exams and hold a CPL licence I will consider taking a loan to help me get to at least instructor stage.

Good luck

Some suggestions:

(1) Join the RAF

(2) Join the Army Air Corps

(3) Join the Fleet Air Arm

(4) Get a job, work, live cheaply, pay as you go through the modular route. Best of all, get a job in aviation somewhere - whether that's as cabin crew or barman.


A few further thoughts:

- At 19 you are nowhere near running out of time. If you were 40, maybe.

- You say you want to be a pilot; rather than have an unhealthy and unnatural obsession with airliners. Good. That means you can consider military flying, becoming a microlight instructor, commercial balloon pilot...

- "Who you know, not what you know"? - at the higher levels of job hunting maybe, at working level, no - it's what you can do and how you present yourself, everything else is just fluff.

- You don't need integrated. Virtually nobody needs integrated. It's just marketing spin and a huge price markup on a good product - the majority of working pilots trained through a modular route of some sort.

- PPL/night/IMC at 19 is actually very impressive. Don't put yourself down, you're on track and doing well. (For the record, by my 20th birthday I had slightly under 16 hours. To date my career has, whilst perhaps in odd directions, has been damned good fun, and all about flying.)

G

There is some "who you know" at all levels I would suggest Genghis - however you have already proposed the solution. If Crescentpirate works in the aviation business, in whatever capacity, he will get to know people. You know what a small world this is!

It is a small world - but my experience is that the main thing that follows you around is your fowl-ups (my biggie from 1996 still gives me trouble on occasion :ouch: ). If you haven't got any, then people mostly just look at your CV and make their mind up. Of course, knowing people does help find out where vacancies exist.

G

Thanks
 

I appreciate all your comments. However i see that the word 'years' and so on pops up frequently.

I understand i am undertaking a career in which most of us were dreaming about when we were toddlers. But i really really want to get my first officer position as quick as possible while i am still young and good looking haha.

Flying is flying, i'd do it voluntarily if i could because its what I'd love to do. But there is money to be made in aviation and i really don't want to be that 'old guy' driving around in his new spangley Lotus Elise trying to relive the youthful bachalor life he never had.

My friend is 20 and is in Cabair, finished his exams and all he has to do now is pass his flying exams and he has his commercial license. He Is, going to be a pilot a lot quicker than me and definately before he reaches his thirties. I see his videos he uploads on facebook. I am very happy for him but i get butterflies in my stomach when i watch saying 'i should be up there as well'. I feel like i've wasted so much time and after watching that video its made me relaise just how badly i want that job.

Modular sounds great it does, cheap, at my own pace..but i might try integrated. Worst case scenario, i can't pay the debt, what they going to do? nothing...So i can't get good credit on a car or whatever at least i had my chance to do it and do it at an age in which i was still young.

I'm not persuing my career for the money or indeed the hotel accomodation with the lonely air hostesses, but i really would love to become a pilot preferably before i am married.

Any pilots got any opinions on undertaking integrated? I think i read on cabair website that its a 'preferred' method. Unsure if that applies to the shool itself as being the preferred or speaking on behalf of airlines.

I admire your desire to get into the aviation industry Crescentpirate I really do. I was the same when I was your age, dead keen to be an airline pilot and would have done anything (within reason!!) to achieve my aim. Fortunately for me in those days you could go on an AFI course with 150hrs and that's what I did. It was a long slog but I eventually made it to where I am now............................facing possible redundancy. :hmm:

I hope you read the aviation press and keep up to date with happenings within the industry because along with the demise of XL, Zoom and SilverJet, airlines are looking at cutting back on their pilot workforce, sometimes quite dramatically. BA, Virgin and now bmi have announced pilot job losses..................79 captains and 50 F/O's at bmi mainline and 27 Captains and 22 F/O's at regional. bmiBaby has also lost somewhere in the order of 25% of its pilot workforce. That's a lot of very experienced and current guys being released into a tiny marketplace.

So yes your friend will be a pilot with a professional licence before you and I really, really do understand how badly you want to do this job, but the harsh reality is that your friend will be unable to secure a job (unless exceptionally lucky) especially when you think of all the young F/O's that bmi will release on the market with 500-2000hrs on the A320 and all the 737 rated guys from Baby.

It took me the best part of 11 years from gaining my PPL to securing my first RHS on a jet with a lot of sh1tty flying jobs in between (including going abroad for a number of years). All I can say is be realistic (easy to say but not to do within aviation) and read all you can here on Pprune and in the aviation/business press and don't make any rash decisions which you WILL regret

Why ask for advice from experienced pilots who have been in your situation if you are too busy being part of the 'me now' generation to heed said advice anyway. :ugh:
Debt is a terrible curse. With your background you should understand this. Do your A levels - maths is very important in aviation. Get a job, save up, earn your way, and stop being a jerk. But hey, if your shallow enough to think a good car is important in life, then I guess there is little hope for you. You are aware of the current job situation I take it?

Why integrated? It doesn't do anything to help you get there faster.

In fact if money is tight it might shoot your dream down entirely, as you might be broke with no access to credit, so you won't be able to keep flying or do more courses. You will also be unsuited to many areas of aviation, as integrated courses are aimed very much at the right seat of an airliner, the dullest, most frustrating seat in aviation.

If you are that impatient and just want it for the image while you're young, then aviation really isn't the career for you. Yes if you had money to buy your way straight into the airlines you might get away with it, although I wouldn't want to employ you, but without it you will probably end up early on in a place that isn't glamorous and where you are the captain, not the FO, and a responsible attitude is literally all that stands between you and a smoking hole in the ground. In Whyjelly's "sh1tty jobs" he was probably responsible for everything he did much of the time with little supervision. In that he probably learnt a lot that probably makes him a good pilot now. If you don't have the patience to go through all that after working hard for years to train then I doubt you will make it to the shiny image anyway, you will become one of those that fall by the wayside.

I suggest you go back to get some decent A-levels, get a degree and go into the city or become a lawyer.

you mentioned at the start of this post that it will be virtually impossible to get the money for integrated course?
now you are saying you will try the integrated course?
i think you need to speak to a bank manager! access to those funds is nigh on impossible unless you have a house to secure it against with a parent as guarantors.
You will need a business plan detailing how you are going to pay it back and all of your outgoings etc. trust me, i know. your attitude about the repayments stinks to be frank. you cant expect to get a loan of that size and just not pay it back if you dont succeed. that sort of attitude amongst young people helped to cause the recession and its the reason why banks no longer lend large amounts of money unsecured.
I got accepted onto the CTC wings course but i couldnt afford to get the loan. I would never ask my mum to re mortgage the house as i didnt think it fair. Do you know how frustrating that is? - to know you have the potential to pass training but just cannot get access to the funds?! so, what did i do? i got over the disappointment and got on with life. i saved my money and made sacrifices (with a little help) and got my ppl. 1st hurdle reached. now im looking at saving again and moving on to my cpl WHILST enjoying the flying my new ppl has enabled me to do.
i have wanted to fly since i was 7. im now 25 and have my ppl. 18 years so far and im willing to be patient!
i also suggest you look at the entry requirements to every integrated course and make sure you fulfil them before you even consider applying.
I think you need to be a little more realistic and a little more patient.

The term sh1tty job is probably unfair to use insomuch that guys right now in the current market would probably snap your arm off for a shot at them.......night mail runs, single pilot IFR in a piston twin (real character building stuff in a harsh UK winter) and single pilot IFR on a twin turbo prop in Africa with no support to speak of.

I feel I have a great deal of experience and airmanship savvy to fall back on if needed and wouldn't change the way I came up "through the ranks" so to say.

I do think the original OP has got a slightly rose tinted view of the job i.e. cars, money,girls and dare I say it glamour. There are a lot of guys who see the shiny brochures and get sucked in by the ads the reality is very different, especially at 0330z on a freezing wet winters day with a one hour plus drive into work for a 9,10 or 12 duty day, followed by the drive home and the prospect of 4 or 5 similar days ahead.

In the current market the low houred CPL/fATPL is on to a beating for nothing.

Quick bit of guidance for you:
Stay at college and get A Levels, unless you want to be on a very low wage in a crap job.
Employers generally require people with A Levels as it shows you have a bit of brain. If you choose to leave early, you could setup a business and be your own boss and save from there.

For an Integrated course you need £££ i.e. £80,000-£100,000
This requires security of generally £50,000 – this could be in the from of the parents paying/a house/savings etc. If you don’t have access to this security, then quite simply you cannot do an Integrated course.

If you work for 10yrs approx. saving about this much you could then do an Integrated course, otherwise your stuck with the Modular route (pay-as-you-go).

I have seen that BMI are getting rid of pilots (not suprised) but from research that I do I’ve also been seeing positive signs/information about expansion of airlines and orders for a/c and when they are due to be delivered. It’s a case of looking in the right place and not always on Pprune.

Pprune is useful but you have to extract “useful” information carefully.

If you make a silly drastic/not thought-out decision during your training, that could potentially bodge :bored: up the rest of your training and ending your dream.

There are risky decisions but there are also calculated decisions.

Start looking into flight colleges for prices and training programmes and also buy yourself a Flyer Mag, to get some insight into flying and also look at the training companies at the back. Another option is to go to a Flyer Exhibition where all the training companies meet up, so you can meet them personally.

The industry is a mess at the moment (just like most other industries), but as with every recession there is one heck amount of a mess to clear up after. The recession storm will clear and you'll start noticing significant changes in around 1-3yrs time (my opinion).

I have a feeling that getting that first job will be a struggle but I’m willing to do another career (of many) until my time comes. :ok:

There are some interesting and varied responses on here and I've enjoyed reading them..

I've got a CPL and am just finishing an IR and then plan on going to Bournemouth in Jan to do my MCC.
I know there is a serious lack of work out there and initially I can only aspire to flying piston twins around the UK unless I'm at the right place at the right time and get some of that aviation luck that happens from time to time.

I've loved every minute of the flying I've done over the last 10 years. a PPL then an aerobatic rating and then a few years of general experience and hour building before I decided to do my ATPL..

I didn't come from a wealthy background, I just had a passion for flying and after a lot of hard work and money saving am realising my goal..

By the end of Jan I'll have a Frozem ATPL and I'll struggle to get a job but who cares, I'm just loving it.. Ok, I loved everything apart from those horrid exams! :ok:

..And well done to you, with the right attitude also! :ok:

You don't need to do an integrated course. I did the modular route and 4 months after completing everything I was starting a job on a medium jet in the UK. There was no question of me paying for a type-rating. If you do modular stick with one, maybe two providers.

An integrated course may help you stand out in the present environment, however, an OAT spokesman was recently quoted as saying that, in the last 12 months of 270 odd graduates, only 80 or so have been interviewed/placed with an airline. An integrated course probably won't teach you quite the same skills that might be useful should you end up doing air taxi, parachute dropping or aerial photography - I don't think SPIC ever allows you to foul up your nav and be properly worried!

There is an argument for undertaking your flight training during a downturn, as you could be in a good position when you finish, if that conincides with the upturn. However, we are still waist deep in the doo doo right now and it feels like we're treading water. Globally a lot of major airframe orders seem to be scheduled from 2012 onwards - putting off for another couple of years would do you no harm. Do your A-Levels (maths & physics not my strong point too, but being able to put them on your CV certainly looks better than Art or Media Studies!), get a part-time job, and if you can get a PPL under your belt over the next year or two, you'll be able to present yourself in a very good light to the bank, should you wish to borrow. Your required finance will also be less.

I completely empathise with your 'butterfly' feelings - I had those as well. But, you're only 19! Get being 19 out if your system, not so easy to be as wild as I was when 19, and be a responsible pilot. I didn't start until 25, and have no regrets. I'll certainly bring more life experience to a command than if I had seen nothing but aviation.

Good luck.

Whyjelly

Yeah, I know. Done the night mail, 'papers, crossed the North Sea night IFR not knowing if I would have to go back due wx, picked up everything from famous people to dead people to the wrong thing entirely (not our fault!). All that great stuff, wouldn't have missed it for the world. Wouldn't have wanted anyone impatient and desirous of the 'glamour' of a pilot's life to be doing it for me!

I'm an oddball, in that I have equal passions for flying and engineering - which come together on my particular passion of test and research flying.

But ultimately, where the hell is the joy of spending your life sat in the left (or right) seat of an electric jet - or being abused by airline management and airport security. It's money and a fancy uniform, with a little bit of flying.

Personally, I would be quite happy to fly night mail, inter-island ferry, offshore fishery patrol (or best of all, prototype test flying - but that takes rather more than a pilots licence or two, and I do a bit of that already). Right hand seat in a 737 or A320? No thanks, and to hell with the extra money.

And if I had my current passion for aviation (which is rather stronger than when I was 19) I might try for the services - who have better aeroplanes, better training, and a natural home for talented but arrogant 19 years olds (which I definitely was - well, arrogant anyhow). I'd not be looking to go massively into debt, with a grossly overpriced training product, to chase a job which is much less interesting than it could be - in the hope that one day I'd get senior enough to be able to pay the debts off.

Sorry, that was a bit of a rant, but I feel better now. :}

G

"and initially I can only aspire to flying piston twins around the UK"

Don't be harsh there is nothing wrong with flying pistons twins around the UK.

Trust me, I'm not complaining.. I'd take a major pay cut and ditch my current job to be able to do just that.

I've had a lot of fun in the good old Seneca and Aztec and I hope I'll have a lot more but I'd also love a nice Dash 8 under my control one day and then who knows, maybe a 757 or 767..

But, offer me an airbus and I'll have the Seneca back please.. *joke*:)

Its true i am apart of the 'me now' generation but that does not say i am not willing to heed advice. And no, a good car is not everything to me. What i was simply saying is that i want to get into aviation as quick as possible, i only have what, probably 70 years on this planet before i succumb to something terrible? I want to make the most of it.

I simply want to know what my options are so i know the best course to take.

Well the quickest way is not an integrated course. If you have that money up-front you can do a modular course just as quickly (actually you technically could do it more quickly if you were good and worked very hard). At the end you will have £20-40k left over (I have heard figures of £80k thrown around for integrated courses, and accommodation at Oxford used to be ridiculously expensive), which will be very helpful for finding a job quickly, for example doing more flying, doing a type rating, an instructor rating etc.

One of my IR instructors who flies for a major airline was discussing the whole subject with me the other day and unfortunately seems to think a low hours fATPL without a type rating would have to be extremely lucky to get work on a jet..

it's almost accepted that you need a type rating under your belt now.

I just hope I've got enough cash left after my MCC to get myself a type rating, maybe on an ATR or Dash 8..

I totally understand your post! I'm from a very normal background and my parents can't afford to pay for my flight training either. I'm not going to lie it makes things very difficult when you are actively competing against another social class which you will probably never be part of no matter how hard you try. I would be much happier if first officers were paid around the same as a bus driver and captains paid somewhere in the 35-40k region but in the same way as bus drivers the training was provided free of charge, I mean everything from the first flight onwards. I don't need to be paid 80-100k to maintain my standard of living because I have never had that standard of living in the first case. I would be quite happy to maintain council estate life whilst working as a Pilot its really not that bad. But I'm being screwed in a different way. If the above was true we would not have a bunch of hooray henrys paying 80K to go to Oxford, do you see any posh bus drivers?

I have done whats been suggested by many on here, work whilst training and avoid debt at all costs. Its been extremley hard, doing so has involved shift work including nights in order to release more days to train. I will graduate with little more than 10K of debt, I can probably pay this back quite quickly now since my Enthusiasm for Aviation has resulted in gaining a job in the industry which pays quite well and is relativley secure despite the recession, I have been lucky. I am however faced with a dilemma, when I started my training most of the Airlines were recruiting, there was plenty of instructors jobs and sponsored type ratings around. Now its a different world, after grinding my way to an fATPL what do I do? I probably can't afford a Ryanair or a Wizz Air type rating, once again the hooray henrys of this world win.

So heres my advice:

1.) Train in the best value way possible, modular flight training with 50% of the hour building in the states and a good value CPL/IR course in the uk from stapleford, flying time, bonus etc

2.) AVOID DEBT LIKE THE PLAGUE

3.) Put anyone who you know who is posh off flight training at any possible cost, use phrases like industrial industry, shift work and compare it to coal mining!

4.) look after your family and your friends they are more important than your licence.

5.) Be modest about your Aviation achievements around your non-aviation friends, they are unlikely to understand it and will see it as a sign of Vanity which is unwelcome by most.

Flyboy1818, most of what you've written is valid and true but can you please explain what a so-called "posh" or "Hooray Henry" is? Because at the moment, it reads as though you have chip on your shoulder about people who've worked hard for money and who maybe speak well and I'm sure you don't really have those prejudices, do you?

Cheers

Whirls

Errrrm, hate to say it but many FOs are paid the same as bus drivers, plenty of them less than even the average bus driver.

No I have a chip on my shoulder against individuals who have there flight training paid for by there familys and have never had to pay for it in the first place. Thats what I refer to as posh or hooray henry. If you read carefully my post clearly states that I have been in a similar situation to the individual asking the question and have paid for my flight training by working at the same time. I do agree some pilots are paid less than bus drivers, but some are still very well paid at the top end of the profession and thats really what makes the job different, thats what attracts people from well off familys who will pay for the training. Do you really think these peoples parents would pay for the training if they knew that it was 40k tops? Would you be prepared to sign a 80K loan secured on you parents modest 3 bedroom semi if you knew that the chances of making repayments in full were unlikely? What if your parents simply said no, we have worked hard for our modest house etc etc

How about this flyboy1818 .... you work hard, get a good qualification and a good job, save your money wisely, marry and have children. When that child grows up, you want the best for them; most parents will do what they can to help their children.

You shouldn't prejudge people just because they happen to be born of parents who do have the money any more than you would prejudge someone just because they happen to be born of parents who don't.

My father paid for my CPL training - he came from a working class background but worked hard all his life. When he died, I inherited his house. Oddly, I'd prefer it if he was still alive. :(

Life's not fair. Don't expect it to be. Chips on shoulders have no place in a cockpit.

Cheers

Whirls

I don't take my chips to the cockpit thats why I have put them on prune! I still don't understand how I can complete a CPL/IR course on the same aircraft and at the same test centre as a CTC cadet yet have less options when I leave the course because I'm modular and could not afford the 80K bribe. In a world where as a nation we are meant to embrace equal opportunities it smacks on apartheid.