Eh? You've got more options by doing a modular course. A CTC cadet has been taught to fly an airliner; a modular student has been taught to fly an aircraft.

What is showing here is that you believe the integrated system to be better than modular and you are feeling bitter that you couldn't afford to it. That is where you need to adjust your thinking. And, believe me, chips have a way of appearing in a cockpit even if you think you've hidden them away.
We do. You have more opportunities now than ever existed before. However, just as some people are not born beautiful, some are disabled, some are really poor, some are not. Life's not fair and it's up to you what you make of it.

Cheers

Whirls

I don't believe that one is better than the other I simply believe that its a licence and that the test standards are the same regardless of weather you go integrated or modular. The problem is that its a fact that a graduate of Oxford or CTC etc etc will have more chances.

Even now the CTC cadets who have graduated into nothing, have there CV on file with CTC and when the upturn comes they will walk straight into jobs with the airlines, which have partnered with CTC. Its the same with Oxford and British Airways. An individual as a holder of a fATPL from any other establishment cannot apply for these jobs, they have been exclusivley reserved for the individuals who have paid top dollar for flight training which most of us ordinary chaps cannot afford. How is that fair? You don't even get a chance to apply for a job with many of CTC's partner airlines because they have taken up all the slots!

Thats wrong and thats why its not equal, I don't see universities promising employment with XYZ companies on there advertisements, so why are flight schools able to do this? If the likes of EZY, British Airways etc want people trained to a specific standard then they should open an academy or bring back full scaled sponsorship, they should not be operating some half baked tagging scheme via a flight school where only those that are financially capable are able to attend. No one for a second cannot deny that this practice is excluding some very capable individuals

Life's not fair; no, really it isn't. Was it fair that I was born too early to become a pilot in the RAF?
No they won't. They won't have the chance to be an instructor or ferry pilot or .... There are a lot of small operators who wouldn't want to employ an integrated student and would prefer modular.

There are some people who may say that it's not fair that Flyboy1818 can afford a modular course - what say you? There are some people who can't afford a roof over their head. So, on the scale of things, you are quite privileged? Make the most of it.

Cheers

Whirls

flyboy

A couple of points. First off, is it really too much trouble to use correct punctuation and roughly correct spelling? It would make your posts easier to read, which is polite to those you are addressing, and poor language is far more likely to restrict your choices than the training course you were on. People have found jobs through PPRuNe, so this might be the first impression you make.

Secondly a large proportion of pilots don't go into the business for the money. Quite the reverse, the money is good because the job is dull. Some of the most challenging jobs in aviation command rather modest salaries because they are varied and interesting, so the adventurous people who learn to fly actually want those jobs. Money is not a rational motive for going into aviation. The rewards are not high enough for the uncertainty. There are far better careers for anyone who wants to earn a lot.

How much involvement you have had in the industry that you seem to know all about recruitment policy in the diverse sectors? You also seem to know the recruitment policies that would be better for those airlines. On what research do you base that? Assuming of course that you don't think airline recruitment should be set up for the benefit of the pilot; that would be ridiculous.

I think your overlooking the main point here, which is that its alot of money for a young person from a normal background with no financial support from there parents. The cheque book really does rule here!

7.5 years working in Aviation, 5 years in the Airline sector, 2.5 in Business Aviation. Ferry and Business Jet jobs are practically impossible for newly licenced pilots due to the hours requirements! My job involves dealing with a number of senior pilots on a daily basis.

If you have a problem with me affording a modular course then please come and join me on a nightshift, I might even buy you a cookie!

If that is directed at me, may I suggest you read my post more carefully. Why should I have any problem with your income or capital and how you choose to spend it? :confused:

I am not overlooking the main point.

And a modular course is a lot of money as well especially if, like the OP, you're struggling to afford that.

However, determination and effort cost nothing and no cheque book can ever buy the right attitude. And attitude is no respecter of money or class.

Cheers

Whirls

Sorry I think you really have got the wrong end of the stick here, I'm on a modular course! What I'm trying to point out here is that it is very difficult if you are not from a well off background. You cannot deny that my choices after training are limited by financial wealth. I would love to be able to afford to have all the options open to me, but I won't be able to apply for jobs where you have to pay for a type which is most. The person asking the question may work hard for years like me to get a licence and then find that they are back to square one because they do not have the capital to get into certain operators. I know that someone will come on here now and say that they had there type rating paid for, but I bet that was a few years ago!

Instructing would be nice but again it’s more money, it’s all money, money, money and if you’re paying for it off your own back it’s really hard!

I believe I do have the right attitude as I would not have got so far in this industry without a good attitude, what I do not like is the fact that someone who walked into an integrated school 18 months ago because they can afford it is ahead of someone who has spent nearly a decade in the industry because of corrupt recruitment policy. This would not happen in any other industry and needs to be addressed!

No, I haven't got the wrong end of the stick at all - I knew you were on a modular course.

However, I CAN deny your choices are limited; I don't think they are. If your only desire is to fly for British Airways, then that option may well be harder. However, as a modular student you have MORE options available. Really, you do if you have the right attitude.

That is just pure envy and bitterness; not desirable character traits so maybe try readjusting your ire into something more positive.
Yes, it does - try researching into how barristers are trained. They have to work for NO income whilst training.

Why does it need to be addressed? Basic supply and demand theory dictates the job market and remuneration therein. We live in a capitalist society; not a communist one.

If you believe that it is only your talent as an aviator that should matter, then you should have joined the Armed Forces, your talent would have shone through and we would have all paid for your training out of our taxes.

I'm not going to reiterate myself any more - life's not fair and it's up to you to make of it what you want; negative attitudes will not help.

Cheers

Whirls

I was actually on a University Air Sqaudron for two years and I had a great time, but I always wanted to be a Civilian Pilot and I decided that I should follow my first preference. I think you have made a poor comparision here because the Military is completley different to the Civilan flying world and for many reasons a Military career does not suit everyone. Being a Military Pilot is about alot more than just the flying, it would be insufficient to say that everyone who wants to be a Pilot and cannot afford to train should join the Military.

Its not a negative comment, I am being a realist and stating fact. Most students who graduate an integrated course have no other experience of the Aviation world, yet they get first preference for many jobs. If we are to compare this to your example about the legal profession, imagine working for a legal company for 7.5 years and being told that you cannot work for them as a barrister after qualification because you did not go to there partner law school or were not tagged by them! This does not happen in the legal world. You can go out and do your training at your choice of law school and apply for any of the jobs available. In Aviation however we are limited in choice because of the way in which many of the larger schools have partnered with the airlines.

I have a few friends in the legal profession and I asked them today about the cost of training. For a graduate in another discipline like myself I would have to undertake a graduate diploma in law costing between £2000 and £8000 followed by a Bar Vocational Course costing between £8000-£15000. I would then be qualified to apply for a job. My friend indicates that a newly qualified Barrister at his firm earns around £42K pa, no further training costs are involved. The difference with Aviation is that even when you take the modular route the total costs will be at least twice this amount from zero to fATPL. When we finish training it now seems to be the norm to pay for more training, this could be an instructors ticket at £7K or a type rating at £25K. I know that you have mentioned other jobs such as being a Ferry Pilot, however this type of employment is unlikely to be a first job and is often one for someone who has lets say 1000 hours single enigne time from instructing.

All these factors mixed in do make a career in Aviation extremley prohibitive to an individual trying to pay there own way such as myself or the individual asking the question. Lets not forget that the Goverment do hand out loans for those law courses which means that anyone from any background can training to be a legal professional. You do not require an 80K loan secured on your parents house or parents who will pay to train to go to law school. In addition to this you don't have to go to the highest priced law school to apply for a job with the best law firms. All this is different from the world of Aviation. An integrated student could indeed if they wanted to be end up being a ferry pilot if they wanted to be there are no companies which ferry aircraft specifying that you must come from XYZ modular school to work for them, anyone can apply. All I want is a more level playing field so that students from any flying background can apply for jobs. Flybe is a really good example of the model that all airlines should follow, they pay for you type rating and you can apply if you are integrated or modular. They do have a few schemes but this does not make employment with flybe exclusive.

I really hope you can understand my view point here and that it really is a case of how big your cheque book is, the smaller the cheque book the narrower the opportunities.

I'm a realist and yes i am taking everybodys advice. I came here to get a list of options and then to decide for myself. Debt is a terrible curse but i have escape routes. The human rights act also plays its part for me because legally i cannot be held to liberty so if all goes wrong, declare bankruptcy and start fresh afterwards.

What i am saying is, i want to know the quickest route, so i can get an idea of what people are doing and maybe deciding if i should do it. No doubt everybody wants it now and hell i do too. In all respect, i was not being a jerk, i may have came across as one but you clearly misinterpreted my meaning. I just find it somewhat of an annoyance when i am breaking my back trying to get into this industry when some little cambridge graduate who has never even been inside the doors of a factory suddenly gets his integrated 50K course costs paid in full and 2 years later is flying for British Airways.

Oh dear lawd - no wonder this country's going to hell in a handcart if that's an example of attitude to debt :rolleyes:

Any idea what bankruptcy ACTUALLY means afterwards? Or are you believing the glossy ads shown on daytime television?

I've said it before; I'll say it again - Life may not be fair but it's what you make of it. Grumbling about how other people have it easy does not help you. Nobody actually has it easy - try walking a mile in someone else's shoes before you start whinging about your lot. Life's tough and we can't always have what we want.

Cheers

Whirls

Not to mention spelling, punctuation and grammar. This thread is getting more and more painful.

It surely isn't a co-incidence that those complaining most about how unfair life is to them, are those least capable of constructing clear high quality written English.

G

Hear, hear, Genghis the Engineer!
 

And as for Whirlygig - your patience is laudable - Bishop Bonner would brook no such nonsense!

Don't worry, Flyboy1818; Gordon Brown has obviously read your missives, agrees that down this route humanity will prosper and is basing his electoral triumph on this basis.

There is hope! you will soon be out of your teens and will be released from the hormonal nightmare that is obviously gripping your sphincter... his turmoil will be slow to end - wet faggots for him!

Rights vs. Responsibilities
 

'The human rights act also plays its part for me because legally i cannot be held to liberty so if all goes wrong, declare bankruptcy and start fresh afterwards.'

Crescentpirate - along with my last, apparently Aung San Suu Kyi is also an avid reader of this forum. She applauds your grip of the ramifications of an ill considered vote winning stunt from an ex prime minister, some say war criminal (heaven forfend that anyone on PPRuNe should even consider subscribing to that heresy!), of the UK.

The pH of my contempt for you was matching that of my bile - but my better half went to church once and counsels pity as the more appropriate route.

Your attitude to human rights is so dangerous. I urge you to reconsider your responsibilities.

Wheelbrace - you owe me a keyboard (and some wetwipes for the monitor!) :} and I might owe you a beer :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

Ale uplift
 

Whirlygig - I would love to take you up on the offer of a beer, but Holt to Derehamshire is a good day's hack. Maybe when the infernal combustion engine is invented and inserted into my horseygig I shall venture that way.

Wheelbrace.

PS - what is a keyboard and monitor? Do you hover like a Bishy Barny Bee in your flying machine? I have heard of such things south of Thetford...

I find that annoying too. But it did not stop me earning the money BEFORE I PAYED for my licence (modular), and became a pilot. I wasn't 22 when I first sat in a jet. So what? I felt great having achieved it on my own, and had had some interesting experiences on the way. Borrowing money and then declaring bankruptcy never, ever occurred to me, and I find it morally reprehensible. The world is not 'fair', get over yourself.

Wheelbrace, would sure beat some of the squit here :}

Indeed I do but my staple diet is no longer greenfly. :ok:

Cheers

Whirls

Same here flyboy1818

I'd fly for free if i could, work part-time at a job to allow me food and things necessasary to survive.

Sure the pilots life is glamerous and things and being human it is only natural for me to want that life. It would be great driving a nice car while still being young and so on but if something terrible happened and suddenly alternative ways of transport were found and as a result pilots were being paid minimum wage, i'd still do it. It just means i'd have to date an older and wealthy woman...hahaha i'm joking. No but seriously, i'd fly for free.

Yeah i hope you guys didn't think i wanted this for the money. I wanted to fly before i even knew what money was. When i was a kid i used to get toy cars for christmas and unlike most kids, i'd pretended they could fly.

How exactly are you planning to live when you're flying for free? How long are you planning to work for free for?

If you go down this route, you are going to discover very quickly that even though airline flying is a good job, it is just that: a job. It is a way to make money so that you can enjoy a lifestyle that you want. The novelty will VERY quickly wear off when you are in ludicrous amounts of debt (which is unobtainable at the moment anyway) and you return from a day's work to your bedsit with no money to buy decent food, let alone engage in anything that might be described as "a life".

Your comment that The Human Rights Act guarantees your right to bankruptcy protection is one of the funniest, and naive comments I've read on here in a long time. Do you realise that banks will not lend you the money required to fund an integrated course, unless they obtain some form of security, in the form of a charge over property (usually a house)? Therefore, unless you have a family member who is prepared to risk their house so that you can "work for free" (and you say in your first post that you don't), you WILL NOT get funding for the full amount of the course fees for an integrated course. Even assuming that someone was idiotic enough to agree to offer up a property as security so you could get a loan, if you were to default on that loan (because you have no money as you're working for free), ultimately the bank can take possession of said property and sell it, releasing equity to satisfy your debt. Nothing in any section of The Human Rights Act to stop that happening.

You have to face the simple facts: since HSBC stopped giving unsecured loans for people on the Wings scheme at CTC, it has become impossible to do an integrated course unless you have significant amounts of cash, or generous parents prepared to risk a significant amount of the equity in their property.

To sum up, Crescentpirate, you have a wholly unrealistic take on how this all works. Your only option given your current circumstances is to start down the modular route, taking your time and flying when you can afford it.

First of all, what would one define 'lower class' as?

I started training for my PPL at 14, and got it at 17. It was paid for through inheritance from my grandmother, a year stacking shelves and saving at Sainsburys (something I still do now to pay for flying and having a bit of fun at the weekend) and a fair amount from my parents. All this on top of school/college, its been a busy few years, but I can gladly say I've earnt my PPL.

I have absolutely no plans to put my parents in financial risk to fund my commercial training. They will be paying for some of it ,but so will I. I'll be flying modular, something I always planned to do, and will be able to work and fly at the same time (most likely not at sainsburys mind you, I'm at the end of my tether)

Financially, short term, it would be alot easier for me to take a loan out, and go integrated in september next year straight out of college. But I hope this way I'll be free of significant debt, and still enjoy myself in the process!!

Cheers!

Lets define it as someone who has no or very little help from there parents or relatives etc etc. Put1992 you are very lucky to be in such a position, I wish my parents could pay for part of my modular training!

I do not agree with the above comment, what I clearly stated in a previous post is that I would be happier if the training was free, but as a result the job did not have the earning potential that it now has and the top end salaries which it has right now. The reason people are prepared to work for free and pay for hours etc is that we are all playing one big end game trying to become the £100,000 per year BA Captain with two kids that go to private school a trophy wife and a pony. If this kind of income and lifestyle was not feasible by becoming a Pilot then people would not be prepared to fork out such huge amounts of money for training, less people would train and we would probably be in a situation where full sponsorship would start again.

In short normal working people cannot afford to work for free, we have outgoings and these will not go away because we are performing some kind of vanity by pretending to be a professional and paying to fly a jet. So no you won't find me working for free, even Vicars get paid to work!

Good well done, good healthy attitude enjoy it and don't be in a rush, don't wish your life away!

Well do us a favour and don't. In fact do us an even bigger favour and stay out of our industry. The last thing we need is people like you undercutting everyone when others are already struggling to survive.

It is a relatively small part though.

That is not my dream. Best of luck if you want that.

Just to point out that Cresecentpirate is having a liitle rest (:= ) for a couple of days and therefore won't be responding straightaway!

HWB

hi buddy, i wouldnt say im in the same position as you but it is similar. Im 20, and know how your feel about the age situation. yes your young but you feel as though you should have some sort of vocation or trade to your name. I feel the same. your mates are all off at uni or travelling, bettering themselves in some way and your not. Dont worry. the same thought would keep me awake for hours. My advice would be to think finish your a levels, if the unlikley happpens and you loose your medical, you have a good cushioning to fall back on. after that save some money in a full time job that you enjoy. one which gives you a trade and one which you can grow into. for example tree surgery. you may not find this helpful but it cant hurt.

All that stuff about getting an unsecured loan,doing the training and declaring themselves bankrupt. This guy doesn't deserve to be let loose behind the stick of a C150 let alone anything else.

TBH I don't think any airline would hire someone declared bankrupt or with CCJ's associated to them.

Amen to that :D

Hi,

I can give you some guidelines about getting into flight training.

I' m a PPL and I' ve done my ATPLs but didn' t sit the exams yet.

I' ve started modular in late 2006, done my PPL by summer 2007. ATPL's distance learning from September '07 to July '08.
In 2008 I had to go to the U.S. for several months on hour building, but had to quit my job to do that.

About the job supporting my training:
I made no more than 1200 pounds after tax but living at home, it was sufficient to support my flight training so far.

Since March 2009 I' m on social benefits, unable to find a suitable job and I have attended a 1 year state-sponsored aircraft technician course, but despite my excellent results and hard work, I find myself unable to find the 2 year apprenticeship required to get a mechanic' s license.

I have stocked up quite some savings as I get over 900 euro of benefits per month.

If you' ve got a job, you can get a loan, but one can easily lose 1000 euro per year on interests, so that's 1 month of hard work to feed the bank.

You can' t get loans for integrated unless they're backed by something, and when I was 19 I was eager to do it quickly but that's definitely not the way to do it unless you want to risk your family house. If you don't have a house or other property, forget about getting a 50K loan, banks are not stupid.

3 years ago Oxford invited me to the Netjets cadets scheme and it was very tempting but I'm happy I didn' t go: the cadets are grounded jobless and facing huge loan repayments, those who got hired saw their salaries cut by over 30%, making repayments tight.

One part of me feels like the world is getting ahead of me and that I will be left behind. That feeling is pure imagination as no one is getting any jobs out there, and that is a true and sad fact. People are not randomly crying about their misery, the misery is real and it is even downplayed: people usually don't like to brag about their misery.
I won' t get back into the game until we read "airlines desperate for pilots" in the press. "Airlines hiring again" is not good enough for me because that means that I will still be competing with guys who have been laid off, meaning 0-1% chance for me and other unexperienced CPL' s.
I have no intention of resuming my training until at least 2012, more probably 2013 because the industry is in really really bad shape. I' m saving money so that when the industry unleashes and becomes desperate, I will get back into the game.
I didn' t pass the ATPL theory exams because they expire, therefore being a waste of money.

Starting September 2010 I will be enrolling a university aircraft design course and head into aerospace design, hopefully while maintaining social benefits.

After that, I will aim to enter Airbus' graduate course and try to get a position as an aircraft design engineer.
If I get there, I will chose between continuing in well-paid aerospace and owning my own little aircraft to fly when I want, where I want, with my future wife and kids; or finish my ATPL and fly for a not well-paying airline, while living a terrible family life.

Once you get closer into aviation, it suddenly isn' t as cool as you thought that it would be.

It' s cool to be able to tell your friends that you' re training to become a pilot, but the misery that you' d have to cope with, for those little moments of fame is unbearable.

I' m 23 and I live in mainland Europe

I'd be happy for that. What were you doing?

The General feeling is that you wont hear that again.