Modular Students Employment Success
 

I'm sorry if this question has been raised before, I've looked at the sticky above and couldnt find it. I went to SFC the other day and they told me airlines dont care if you did intergrated or modular. However, last year I went to OAT and OAT said modular schools say that to sell the modular route, in other words its all marketing BS.

So who's telling the truth, intergrated or modular schools. I know this has been discussed before in great length but all I want to know are some people here on PPRUNE who have gained employment relativly quickley via the modular route.

Whenever I see a pilot and they are discussing how they trained they always seem to say I went through the intergrated route. hmmm...... I want to do the modular route but i'm worried that airlines will slightley prefer intergrated students. Just look at how many connections these big intergrated FTO's have, that must show you something right?

Does anyone know how many airline pilots currently in employment went through the modular route and how many went through the intergrated route. Does the CAA have statistics on this?

According to SFC about 54 students have gained employment, does anyone know how many students they have on average each year. Because if they have lets say a 100 students that only means they have a 54% success rate. Now, that doesnt look impressive!

Yes, the question's been asked once or twice! There is also a search function on pprune or you can use google to search pprune. I would also recommend that you just rowse the threads on this forum, just go back a couple of pages and you'll find a wealth of answers.

Oxford say this, Stapleford say that - basic psychology should tell you that there's an element of truth in each and an element of BS!

Cheers

Whirls

Statistics are meaningless because the polling may have been done in an economic climate that is no longer relevant.

If X flying school says 50 percent of their grads found work, that may be true at one point in time. But it doesn't mean it will be true today or tomorrow.

Bottom Line: It's not so much about where you train as "who you are".

There are some students who are just so competent and dedicated that they will find employment regardless of how they trained, there are some who will get through but don't really have 'it' and they will struggle.

This is independant of style of training.

FWIW, In my opinion possibly the difference is that integrated normally requires aptitude testing, which whilst definitely not a definitive statement of your ability to work hard and get a job is at least A filter to ensure there's some talent there.

You get the same licence from both routes, so go figure, I went modular all the way with a small school with 5 aeroplanes and it never hindered me.

I got on to an Airbus at a major airline with 250 hrs and I didn't even have to pay for a type rating.

Cabair/OAA's line of 'you can only get a job from integrated' is running so tired, so don't listen to it. Fact is, no-one is recruiting at the moment. Low hour people won't be looked at for a good while yet regardless of the old mod v int argument. The market is flooded with experienced guys, and will be as more and more airlines go bust. I'd say at least 4 years.

Good luck

I know lots of people who got employment relatively quickly via the modular route. I've seen people from integrated courses be passed over again and again and vice versa. Do not believe the marketing hype.

It is true that some airlines prefer integrated pilots, indeed integrated pilots from certain schools. But as it happens they cherry pick the best out of each class. But even then they still take modular pilots.

Really at the end of day it doesn't matter. There are few jobs at the moment. But when there are, it still won't matter. As clanger says it not about where you train but who you are.

I know one guy, modular trained in the USA. Applied on Monday, was called on Tuesday for an interview and assessment the following week. Passed and told on the day, he was in. Similarly, I know another from an integrated course, sent in the application and heard no more.

It really doesn't matter, get the best training you can for the finance you have. You'll need the spare cash anyway for the long wait for the job.

Disagree. The state of the industry (expanding or contracting) is a much, much more important variable generally speaking.

You can be the world greatest 200 pilot, but if no vacancies are available no vacancies are available.

PosClimb - I don't think that was clanger32's point - I think he was going for the other side of the spectrum i.e "one could go to OAT and get 100% in all exams but one is a right d*ck head so one wont get a job"

nepotism perhaps :suspect:

To be fair its more about the person than the school, unless the old boy network has been used. Of course the interview is looking for a good pilot but there is limited difference between intergrated and mod, 200hrs is 200hrs! When it gets to intervew stage its all about if could they sit next to you on a night TFS or across the pond, not what school you went to. I can see now that people thinking that its the intergrated route that opens doors and yes it does but persistence can do the same. There are stories of a guy who sent to the FCA, or A2000 as they were know then, every week with a CV attached to a bunch of flowers for the chief pilots secretary, after a LONG time it paid off. Equally the guy who hired a bill board van and painted 'I want to fly for Easyjet' and sat in their carpark in an orange jump suit.
As I am sure most guys do, driving around the airports in the country dropping CV's off on top of writing regular letters, prefferably since hour 1 of flying, to every airline updating them on a regular basis will open doors!!
I was a MOD guy from a good UK school and my first job was on the 320 for a uk charter airline all due to regular letters. I also have friends that went to Oxford and are now flying for RYR. So there is not really much difference at the moment at all. However, modular often means that you dont have to ponce around in eppalettes before ever flying an a/c, this may be controversial I know but I am sure with hindsight everone agrees a trip around a certain school is nothing less than comedy value!:ok:

If you wanted an answer, Afraz, you've got some good ones in this thread. The truth behind the marketing BS is that the integrated route suits certain people and the modular route appeals to others. If you have the aptitude to become an Airline pilot and enough dedication, energy and financial backing, you will get a job regardless of which route you take.

Afraz:

If you are so desperate to become an airline pilot, get guaranteed employment and a cheap price training; Why dont you applyto the flybe cadet scheme?!?

Remember training schools are in business to make money - so anything to get someone to part with their hard earned or borrowed cash will help their bottom line.

To be absolutely frank most operators don't care where you did your training. When I worked in the fixed wing world, regional jet operator, the majority of pilots employed gained their licences through the 'modular' route, despite the rubbish being spouted from a certain training school.

The biggest problem for those with freshly printed licences, is keeping it current. A fair number of people have failed to make it pass the interview stage, because of this - even graduates from integrated schools.

Afraz, pull up a comfy chair and read this:

http://www.pprune.org/professional-p...d-nauseam.html

Again, you have had some good advice on this thread. Does it really surprise you that a modular school recommends the modular route, while integrated schools recommend the integrated route? They are all after your money.

For what it's worth, I went modular and had an airline job within three months of finishing the IR. Combination of right place at the right time (my school had a relationship with the airline, who started recruiting FOs a few days after I passed the IR) and a modicum of aptitude. Five of us were interviewed, four got jobs. When we started the type rating course, it was pretty much a 50/50 split between integrated and modular graduates. Make a note of that - the airline had no preference one way or the other.

All of which is good stuff, but pretty academic. We're not recruiting at the moment, so it doesn't matter where you trained - there aren't any jobs. I say again - TIMING IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN CHOICE OF SCHOOL.

Afraz, I went modular and was working as cabin crew from start to end ,3 and a bit years.(I was cabin crew before I decided I wanted to be a pilot)

It allowed me to keep earning I started pre sept 11th, so there were'nt a great deal of jobs and by the time i finished the market had picked up and everybody expanding. I got a job with an airline with 250 hours.
Before I made my decision I asked a lot of flight deck how they trained and a fair few of them were modular , However the market at the time helped make my mind up. Mass shortage of jobs.

Looks like the job market and economy is in a pretty poor position and probably will be for some time?

Good advice from the other guys is that it really does depend on your individual circumstance and long term ,I dont think it matters intergrated or modular its the person that counts.

I met a number of people during my IR that had done the intergrated route and had to wait quite a while before getting a job.

My advice to you is with,the present lack of movement in the airline industry against you and your age (18 ?) for you. Time appears to be on you side and that may help you make your mind up?
You could go modular and end up in employment at the same time as the guy who goes intergrated course and ends up waiting for the market to pick up. Thats what happened to me.
Good luck;)

Gapan
 

Afraz,

According to the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (GAPAN), around 80% of civil trainee pilots go down the modular route, and not surprisingly, modular pilots make up the majority of those gaining employment post-training.

I would recommend you download a good publication produced by GAPAN called 'So You Want to be Pilot' [pdf here - warning: 26 MB so right click and Save As]

It's got a good run down of options, integrated routes vs modular and useful information too.

I've been trying to find that statistic Aero, I cant find it anywhere. And 'So you want to become a pilot' states something along the lines of 'integrated students have a better chance of employment'. Go figure!

Let me try to ask my original question another way. How much do you agree with the statement:

INTEGRATED STUDENTS HAVE A SLIGHTLEY BETTER CHANCE OF EMPLOYMENT WITH THE AIRLINES

1 = Agree completly
2 = Agree somewhat
3 = Dont agree, dont disagree
4 = Disagree somewhat
5 = Disagree completly

Thanks for your help guys!!!!:ok:

I'll bite. I'll take option (1) but with two caveats

a) only when the airlines are hiring in volume
b) but for that slightly better chance of a job or faster time to market you pay, maybe, £25K to £30K more.

Thanks AW!

How longer does it take the average modular student to gain employment with an airline. Can anyone quantify this?

Thanks for all your help!:)

No, no-one has those statistics.

You're going to have to shoot from the hip here, Afraz. Integrated is quicker, more expensive and, in boom times, gets you a job a bit quicker. Modular is cheaper and you can stay in employment while you train.

Two years ago you should have gone integrated, a year ago you should either have gone modular or delayed starting, today, take your pick.....

Yes AW I think your right. But lets say I go modular and finish my training in 3 years time (apparantly the job market will pick up by then) and apply for a job with an airline. Will the airline have a slight prefrence for the integrated students who have come out of the the big 4? Or will I have a equal chance of getting the job? Does having one of the big 4 on your CV impact your chances of employment success?

Once again, thanks!:}

i shall bite as well....

i did my MCC ant oxford a couple of months ago and we had someone from BA (pretty high up in the company) come up and give a speach to all the ofx students. me an my sim buddy went for it as well just to hear what he had to say.

to cut short what he said:
BA are not recruiting pilots from ofx at the mo, have stopped all interviews from them and dont know when they will restart.

BAs shareprices have gone down and shareholders are pissed off. they are trying to make shareholders happy.

BAs overheads are high and they are looking for ways to reduce them because they know they are beign killed out there.

ofcourse he said all the things to promote BA but if one reads between the lines the above is what your take from it. it will be quite a while as it seems they are restructuring the company and it will take aprox 2 years before they start taking students on again.

Now when you go to a place like oxf, they push the fact that BA take on their students. if you look on their website- more students go to ryanair than anywhere else. i know quite a few people who have gone modular and got jobs with ryanair... with BA putting a freeze one recruiting students, what are you going to get for that 30K extra?

Well said Nashers! The eternal Int vs Mod debate lives on. When I organised my training in mid-2007 I was torn for months over which way to go until I spoke to a friend who fly's for RYR and mentioned the number of Oxford Int students being taken on at the same time as him...all of which had spent at least £30k more for their training to get the same job...and that was 4 years ago when the job's market was booming! That was a big nail in the Int coffin for me...the final straw came when I tried to quantify what I actually got for the extra dosh. I could only think of 2 things.....

1) Being able to say "I trained Integrated" and hence a very small chance of getting a job marginally faster.

2) Someone holding my hand and organising my training for me.....call me a synical bastard but I could employ a part time PA for a year for less than £10k to do that for me if it became such an issue (which I could never see it being in the first place)

In case you handn't guessed I'm a big fan of Modular but then I'm training Modular so am bound to be. If money was absolutely no object then I may say f**k it and just chuck the money at OAA for an integrated course but for 99% of people (very much including me :\) money is a very big issue so Mod Mod Mod!!!!

Good Luck whatever you go with.

FS :ok:

yeah, most people who have just finished thier training will probably end up in Ryanair and there are many ways to get into Ryanair (70% of SFC students get employed by Ryanair apparantly), by the looks of things I think they dont care how you got your licence - its the ability that counts!!

After you stop being a self sponsered pilot and become a direct entry pilot I dont think any airline cares where or how you got your licence, now its the amount of hours, type ratings etc you have that the airlines care about.

Am I right about all of this???

Thanks for your help!!!

Did my fATPL modular for 30k. Applied to Ryanair and within 2 days of application was offered the same interview as everyone else. Decided in the end to decline the offer....but thats another story!

Hi

Can I ask where you did you training £30,000 is pretty cheap! And also why did u decide to not accept the job offer?

Thanks:)

Did my PPL in Florida and subsequent CPL/IR/MCC in UK. Saved cash on the hour building thanks to glider towing and para dropping. Was also in a cheap Cessna syndicate which covered the cross country and touring side of things. Turned down the Ryanair interview after getting the finer details of the contract from a friend who had recently been for interview. The 25k as well as financial implications were too much outlay for me. Personal circumstances dictated it wasnt a good idea at the time so I decided not to pursue it. Ended up with interviews elsewhere. Had my circumstances been different then I would have definately went for the interview...but hey ho...everyone's situation is different.

I need evreyones help on this one please. Can you please tell me if the following points are accurate/correct:

1. Most students who have finished flight training end up with Ryanair, Easyjet etc

2. These starting airlines dont care how you got your licence whether it be via the modular or integrated route

3. If you apply to BA or any other major airline (BMI, Virgin, Emirates etc) as a direct entry pilot they wont care how (integrated or modular) or where you got your licence?

Thanks once again for your help its much appreciated for a confused wannabe like myself:ok:

Thanks for telling me why you didnt accept Ryanairs job offer :ok::ok::ok:

I would say most student pilots end up with jobs in Ryanair/FlyBe not Easyjet.

Easyjet mainly CTC cadets, however they have stopped this for the time being.

In terms of success on the modular course, I've never met a modular pilot who hasn't got a job but I don't know that many of them maybe 10-15.

If your applying for BA, Emirates, Virgin, Etc. then you will have a huge amount of hours so where you got your licence isn't really important.

Thanks for that preduk, it really cleared something up for me. So if i'm right the airlines you will start off have no prefrence as to whether you did modular or integrated or where you trained???

So modular looks like the option for me. Can anyone tell me why I should do integrated even when:

1. Most student pilots end up with Ryanair/FlyBe
2. Ryanair/FlyBe dont care where and how you got your licence as long as you pass the selection process you will get the job

Can anyone comment on SFC's relationship with Ryanair as they claim 70% of thier graduates end up with them.

Thanks for all your help!

If modular just as good as integrated why does it say on the BALPA website:

How much truth is thier in this statement?

Thanks for your help!

I think if you add the word "some" to the start of that quote then it would be more truthful. Also the one airline that i can think of which does only accept integrated low hours candidates, British Airways, is not recruiting ANY low hours candidates at all at the moment. I don't see very much to be gaines from an integrated course at this present time apart from if you prefer a more structured route from start to finish, which some people do.

Also BALPA tends to have a reputation of looking after the interests of the larger, more traditional airlines, which could explain why this outdated statement remains on the website.

Furthermore, why is a BRITISH organisation using the american bastardisation of "favor"????

Sorry, my fault I should have included the word ''some'' at the beggining of that quote from BALPA! Can anyone tell me if thier are more modular trained pilots or integrated trained pilots working for the airlines? I have heard from a previous poster that 80% of all civil pilots trained via the modular route.

Once again thanks to evreyone who has replied:ok::ok:

I have no idea, especially as I'm a modular student myself!! but i would presume there are more modular trained guys than integrated purely due to more people training the modular route than the integrated way. If it's a ratio your after my best guess would be that there will be a greater drop out rate of mods than ints as if you jack it in at any stage on a modular course it's easier to cut your loses than if you've paid 63k up front.

The reason i would advocate modular at the moment is you have the ability put your training on hold (like i have done) , and utilise the 3 years you are allowed between groundschool and completing cpl/ir thus minimising the risk of freshly qualifying when there are no jobs (ie now). Even if you started an integrated course tomorrow, there is no guarentee there will be any jobs in 15 months, with modular you can delay your training and try!!!! and come out when the job market is better.

Also learn from my mistake of thinking modular at an integrated school is a good compromise...it isn't. I did my groundschool at a well known integrated provider and definitely felt a second class citizen. Forunately being modular i have the chance to do the flight training somewhere else.

best of luck to you in whichever route you choose.

put it this way... when i did my MCC at Oxford Aviation, 2 of the instructors there (one of which is ex BA) said they themselves see no difference between modular and intergrated and think its wrong for airlines to only accept one and not the other...

oh and i know of a couple flying instructors that teach at intergrated schools having gone through modular training in the first place.

Maybe Alex W can correct me, but the way I see it is that there as a big school student you are a known quantity, I'll wager that generally speaking, there is more transparency in the training process and your progress through it. Certain organisations are probably very well known to the hirers and firers and as such they already have a fair idea about your training and baseline standard before they meet you.

That doesn't mean to say the same is not possible about modular, just potentially less quantifiable.

I avoided saying "integrated" and used the term "big school" because that is what I meant. The majority of big schools are integrated...but not all...

...it is probably a bit disingenuous of OAA to claim that modular isn't as good as integrated seeing as they seem to offer such a product themselves!

In summary, I think one can say that 'structured modular' (OAA, CTC of old, etc) are just as relevant as integrated. What I suspect is the key point is how well known your school is to the recruiters.

Utter rubbish, it might help slightly with getting your foot in the door, but that's it. I went to a small flight school, did it all modular part time and walked straight into a major airline, all off my own back.

Big school mentality is very yesterday. Reality is NO low houred people will get the sort of jobs they could get a year ago, and not for at least 3-4 years to come either regardless of where you trained, the BIG SCHOOLS will tell you what you want to hear so that you delve deep into your pockets to keep themselves afloat!

It really depends on what you CAN do. If you have no financial limitations then make your life easier and go integrated. I did not have the option due to family commitments and financial budget so modular was the only way for me. However, modular can be as good or bad as you make it. If you put some thought into the structure of your training, and consistantly perform well throughout, there is no reason why your modular ATPL(f) is not every bit as valuable as one achieved at an integrated school. You can actually get more credit at interview for taking a tougher route to your license... For example, if you have done your training alongside a full time job and a wife and kids, the guy / gal interviewing you will be in no doubt as to your commitment....
It really is a question of personal choice, in my opinion, neither is generically better, it is what you make of it. My experiences at airline interviews suggest that the potential employer is more interested about you as a person fitting into their company. You will prove your flying ability in the sim.
With regards SFC, its a good place and CD does have links to RYR, hence the numbers of students going there. However, dont limit your options to RYR. Concentrate on getting your license then worry about who to work for. The truth is that the biggest factor that will decide whether or not you get a job will not be where you trained but the state of the job market at that time.
The most important thing is that your training will be no doubt one of the most stressful times in your life, but at the same time one of the most rewarding. The flying you will do is probably the best of your whole career, depending on which path your career takes you and you should above anything else ENJOY IT!!!! After all, its costing you quite a lot of money!!
The other thing pilots should not loose sight of is that even though this industry makes us feel the need to beg for employment, you are actually doing a job for them earning the company a lot of money. They need you as much as you need them.
Whatever you choose, good luck:ok:
MAB

I finished at sfc a while back having gone the modular route and am currently employed albeit outside the country but couldn't be happier. My advice to you is to chose whichever route will suite you.