Worzel,

There was an interesting post from somebody who had 1500 hour turboprob time and who lost out to his 200hr girlfriend who offered to pay for her own B737 TR. My interpretation was there is definately a market for very Junior F/Os who are willing to save the employer a considerable sum in gaining their employment. Maybe worth searching that one out again.


***************



Well put Prob30.

There is a very elegant and natural load-balancing process in action right now. Whilst the market is reeling from the recent depression, the low income from fares has pushed the cost to those whose services are least in demand and who would benefit most, namely the wannabes. When, the proverbial big heavy compressor fan starts to spool up, then the costs will be swung back to those who benefit the most from standing the training costs, namely the employers.

There is no point moaning about how much profit x, y and z have made recently. Anything tied to econmonics posses a huge amount of latent inertia. Yes the profits are comming back in, currently taking up the slack in the market. When that reserve is used then see just how the employers attitudes change. Could take a while though.

As a comparison to the Astraeus assessment - type rating - line experience course, JAC are offering something similar.

The key thing here (in theory) being that they will give you an honest assessment of your ability before you embark on the type rating so that you are not wasting your money.

Foggy

Do you know anything about JAC. Having only just heard of them I've had a look at their website, theres not really a lot of info on there and no all important prices. I did a quick search and interestingly on another post Hamrah said To me that would suggest paying extra cash to a third party, to provide you with the Astraeus product, perhaps with some extra tinsel.

worzel

I wasn't aware of that I'd just seen JAC's web site like you - might as well go via Astraeus rather than through a middle man then.

Foghorn

I just tried to send you a message but couldn't as your mailbox is full.

worzel

sorted now,

foggy.

I went the FI route 3 1/2 years ago & now have an ATPL 2150 hrs tt with just 35 twin, with 16 months of applying and not a snifter. I'm pretty desperate now and dont agree with buying a type rating. I cant afford one any way, or CTC etc.

I do feel that there are far too many 'pull up the ladder-ers', just like FI's who shafted us years ago and worked for nowt!

Sadly they seem to be fast tracking which will only encourage this lunacy.

Is there an official union view on this?
Has BALPA/IALPA etc offered any guidance or reccomendations on self sponsored type ratings?
Personally I think that type ratings are a justifiable training cost that the airlines should absorb, not the pilots.
If we all got our act together and refused to pay then the airlines wouldn't have a choice. This of course will never happen, there will always be someone desperate enough to work for free/pay for a type rating etc.
Is there any real solution?

Apparently the airlines used to pay for IR's, until one bright spark changed that.

The desperation to get one up on the guy sat next to you will always be the case, but this type rating issue is only contributing to future events down the line.

Sounds mad but we could end up paying for our own over night room rate & taxis!

More Type rated pilots on dole!
 

Buzz, the Stansted-based low-cost airline, is to cut 12 routes, reduce its fleet and make up to 400 workers redundant, its new owner has said.
Ryanair, which in January agreed to buy Buzz from Dutch carrier KLM, also confirmed that all Buzz flights would be grounded "for the month of April 2003, at least".

It said the restructuring plans would be presented to staff and creditors over the next few days after which a final decision would be taken on whether to restart some flights on 1 May.

Ryanair said Buzz's financial position was "extremely precarious", and that the airline was losing more than 1m euros (£683,000) a week.

Workforce slashed

Ryanair announced the cuts as part of what it called a "major restructuring" of the loss-making airline.

BUZZ ROUTES CANCELLED
Charles de Gaulle
Dijon
Amsterdam
Marseille
Toulon
Tours
Bergerac
Caen
Geneva
Chambery
Brest
Almeira

It said it would reduce the number of aircraft from 12 to eight and aim to halve the price of current Buzz flights.

The 400 job cuts also proposed represent two-thirds of Buzz's current workforce.

Ryanair said move would mean redundancy for 20% of pilots, 80% of Buzz's current cabin crew and all its cargo and group sales staff.

The 200 remaining staff would be offered increased pay and productivity allowances, said Buzz's new owner.

Re-booking

It added that passengers booked on Buzz flights during April would be offered a full refund and then able to book new flights from 12 March.

The Buzz routes to be terminated include Paris Charles de Gaulle, Amsterdam and Almeira.

Wow, look at all those routes ... Maybe this is the time to lease a few 1900s and start an airline ;-)

No thanks kabz, we need UK registered airlines offering UK residents jobs, not wet lease foreign nonsense...

Indeed an important development. I was suprised nobody picked up on this before.

I know that easyJet recruiting staff were in Stansted on the day of this announcement looking to hire crew.

This development potentially puts hundreds of pilots into the queue containing Joe Wannabe. They join at the head and not the back of the queue...

Just pray a major airline doesn't go to the wall over the coming months. Gulf War 1 took Air Europe and Dan Air over the edge during a period of recession. As I hear it holiday bookings are 14% down on last year, Germany and Japan are dragging us all into a proper recession and Brent Crude whistled past $35 a barrel. House prices are on the slide, they have to have tanks at Heathrow and the Chancellor is slapping extra tax on tickets.

The wheels could come off all this very easily. :(

WWW

Why would FOL purchase an airline which is "losing more than 1 million Euros/ week"???

Will Scabair not just force the crews made redundant onto the ryanair books as they are still looking for crews? I suppose they will have to endure a massive pay cut and loss of all seniority and rights.

What next .....Type Rating (life after 1000 hrs)?
 

As a Wannabe starting out you are looking at the most cost effective way of becoming a pilot.

Obviously, sponsorship is the first port of call.

Brittania - £15k + PPL prefered = £20k approx (6 - 10 places)
Easy Jet / JMC - £60k begining to end (more place's about 40 ish?)

OK so maybe 80 people will get sponsorship per year, but what if you're self sponsored. Say for example you manage to get hold of £50k and get your ATPL and do some instructor work and even manage to get your 1000 hours - what next??

To get onto a jet you need a Type Rating - now Easyjet offer sponsorship for that with a £23k bond. So now your an airline pilot, it's cost nearly £75k plus living expenses, food, medical, re-tests etc etc. Just to finish off lets add interest onto your bond at least another £15k.

Its now cost £90k to become a pilot (please take this as a very rough calculation), my question is how much is the true cost of becoming a pilot in 2003? All the flight schools tell you about getting your (f)ATPL but what next and at what cost! Is there any other proffession where you have to pay so much to just get started out!

Would be interested in anyones comments, especially if you've already got to about 1000 hours!

Scroggs do you have any words of wisdom on the next stage after (f)ATPL?

HL
:confused:

1. Get your fATPL
2. Get a job, earn some money
3. Meanwhile, keep flying
4. Pray the world becomes a more stable place in the next few months so that more people start spending money, boosting the economy, and pray that these people start doing a lot more flying.
5. The airlines will run out of type-rated pilots to hire.
6. Their requirements will be slashed.
7. You might get an interview IF you've kept current and in-touch with everything.

Sounds easy right? Well that's all it takes. £45k or thereabouts to fund your training in the UK. When you're done, be sensible, live cheaply, fly cheaply. It will take a while for numbers 4-7 to happen, but they will.

Yes, it probably does cost 90k to become an airline pilot, but most of that should be forked out by the airline. This subject has been done to death, but do not pay for a type rating unless you have a job set in stone at the end of it.

If you want you can go for the FI rating, but too many people have gone down that road recently to give you a good shot at employment. Once things really start to pick up, and if you don't get that interview, the FI-thing will still be an option.

All newly-qualified pilots are completely dependent on one thing: Airline passengers. Once they start buying tickets in numbers, jobs start to spring up right the way through the industry.

Let's hope it happens sooner rather than later..

abracadabra

Just take it easy, work for your depts and keep on flying.
FI is a smart thing to do, it´s fun and you become a better pilot doing it while you wait for a job.

HL

Don't forget to factor in loss of earnings, say for 2 years.

wITCHDOCTOR

Exactly right, add on loss of earnings and the true cost soars.
I feel sorry for a lot of the young lads sucked into perhaps what they see as the romance and idealism of a life in aviation, after catching the flying bug.

Unfortunately many severely miscalculate the true cost not just in financial terms in some cases.