OAT (Oxford) - the thread, reborn (Part XXVII)!
 

I'm considering doing my fATPL training with OATS after I get my PPL/150hrs done. Is the JOC (jet orientation course) worth doing - will it improve my airline job prospects or should I just stop at the CPL+MER+IR+MCC stage.

Hard hat on.

Flashart.

If money is tight make sure you look around at other schools before choosing.

My advise would be, do your CPL/ME/IR and then apply to CTC.

I asked (separately) a number of TREs/TRIs & Training Cpts I work with about doing a JOC earlier this year, and all of them replied that it didn't make any difference to either job prospects with their outfit (actually a 737 EFIS-equipped low-cost operator) or with respect to flying ability. They called it marketing hype on the part of the FTOs and recommended to save the cash for practice sim sessions when you have a confirmed interview; it seems more useful since you can then practice actual sim check ride profiles.

Cheers :cool:

Thanks for the replies,

Mercenary Pilot - are you saying I shouldn't do MCC - is this something that CTC cover?

Flashart

The CTC scheme is an MCC with a bit more on top that can place you with an airline.

All the details are in the CTC thread.

Hi

Yeah the CTC scheme covers the MCC and is also a JOC. All the guys I know who went through CTC have been placed with an Airline.

A JOC on its own is pretty worthless, its doesn’t give you anything official and you certainly don’t need one to get you through a type rating. :ok:

OAT (Oxford) - the thread, reborn (Part XXVII)!
 

Hello

Please can somebody advise what £60k actually gets you at Oxford, that you won't find at another school?

I understand two main factors are...

1. Oxford prides itself on professionalism

2. It has the links with the major airlines that are second-to-none

...but is the training that much better?

...and, if so, does that mean that other schools are falling short in some way?

Why is it that another school cannot raise the quality (or perception of such) to the level that the recruiting airlines obviously need AND keep it at a fair price?

I cannot help thinking that many trusting students are being ripped off by the country's 'apparent' no. 1 school.

Your comments please...

Gez

I cant see how its a rip-off, nobody forces students to go there. There are other integrated schools with close airline ties. FTE have just announced a link up with GB airways.

Yer' Pays yer' money, yer' take yer' choice. :ok:

Granted, it is your own decison...

...but , to a certain degree, you are forced to go there - as the job offers with the big airlines are orchestrated through Oxford

So, if you want a job, you need to pay the price - which I feel is unfair.

Gez

£60k is a decent amount to get you to ATPL frozen stage.

Check out the site, order the brochure (i did) and you see exactly what you get for your £60k.

Other FTOs have the same level of professionalism. They also have equally strong links with airlines. FTE, CTC, Cabair, etc. will train you to the same standard as OAT, if not better. Nobody forces students to go to OAT. Job offers with airlines are not orchestrated only through OAT, they are the same in most FTOs, with the exception of CTC who provide the best employment prospects. Would you not be happy flying in GA, small turboprop outfits, etc., if you couldn't get a job with the "big airlines"? It is still flying y'know. There is no guarantee that you will get to fly a jet straight off the bat. For £60k elsewhere (integrated or CTC) you get food and accomodation included with your training. OAT have an unnecessary JOC which adds to their price, and their accom. is a rip-off.

True. Nobody is forcing you to go to one FTO or another.
At OAT I was impressed with the facilities, the customer service, and the employment prospects - which from my perspective were comparably 'better' than other FTO's (looked at Cabair and FTE). For me, it was a logical choice.
I chose OAT after what I felt was careful consideration between the options available to me, the amount of money I had available and the likelihood of securing a job once I’ve completed training.
Would I be happy flying “small turboprop outfits”? I’d be happy flying paper aeroplanes, but my research has led me to the conclusion that the starting pay is likely to be higher in a ‘jet job’ than any other.
Should it really be all about money? No it shouldn’t. But realistically speaking, an investment such as the one I have just made concludes that I should be earning as much as possible to begin repayments of my hefty loan. After all, it is still flying!
Regardless of whichever of the three FTO’s I could have joined, I would be in the same financial predicament.
I realise I’ve shifted away from the original question – “What do you get for your money at Oxford”?
 I expect you quite probably get the same quality of training that you would at Cabair or FTE.
 I am led to believe (perhaps I was taken in by marketing spin too – but I regard myself as a fairly smart individual and I am certain I chose the best of the three) that my employment prospects are as high as they are ever likely to be by being at this particular flight school.
 I feel that the ground school tuition at OAT is more ‘taught’ than ‘self-taught’. Not that I’ve been spoon fed all my life – but I personally prefer a regular teaching programme – a lectured system followed by a bit of self-discipline and motivation getting you to consolidate and understand what you have been taught in your own time. I didn’t find this style of teaching to be at the same level at other FTE’s as OAT.
 I can’t say whether or not the JOC is a waste of money or not. Given that many airlines would want you to complete a sim-ride of some sort – 40 hours in a 737 simulator is likely to give you one hell of an edge against someone who is fresh out of multi-engine training. I know for a fact that if an airline asked me to demonstrate my skills in a 737 sim after 40 hours practice – I would have thought I’d be pretty good at it.
All in all – you may not get any more for your money than you would at any other FTO. It’s all about where you feel comfortable, where you feel you can bring out the best in yourself, and ultimately, where you think you’re most likely to secure a job.
I’m thrilled with my choice. And I’m entirely confident that I’ll stand a great chance of gaining employment on completion of the course.

How is that different to any other integrated FTO?

It costs more :rolleyes:

Not to belittle your choice, but 40 hours in the Oxford course means 20 MCC+20 JOC. which , from what I understand, could be done in just about any sim. The emphasis of this course is not for familarity with 737 specific operations but flying at jet speeds. The sim itself is just an FNPT II calibrated like a 737, not the type used for type ratings.

I was under the impression that it was something other (better) than an FNPT II?

Someone who has used it can answer authoritatively.

I can assure you that the OAT device is qualified as no more than an FNPT2 (MCC) and handles like a generic twin jet - exactly as an FNPT2 should. A colleague who has flown it says that its handling qualities are not entirely unlike a B737 (or any other twin jet of a similar size, come to that). I believe that it is similar to the one that used to be at WMU, Battle Creek (a Frasca device with electric motion?) - if so, I too can vouch for the vagueness of its similarity to a real aeroplane.

Lucifer - you clearly know nothing of what you speak.

I do apologise - http://www.oxfordaviation.net/tour/tour-06.htm

I did clearly state that I was not sure below though...(before my edit)

Who told you that? Oxford? What a surprise!

That's a bit like Sainsburys telling you they're the only ones that sell decent turkeys at Christmas. Do you believe them, too?

Scroggs

Oxford B737 sim
 

The Oxford 737 'sim' in in fact an FNPT2.

It is only an FNPT2 because the visuals aren't quite up to the level required for type rating sim and it doesn't have VNAV. This is why it couldn't be used for type ratings. In terms on handling qualities, I couldn't tell the difference between the OAT sim and the ones I flew on my 737 type rating - they handled just the same.

However, saying this, the sims and the actual aircraft do NOT feel the same! I found the sim good for learning procedures, SOP's and dealing with emergencies but it doesn't handle in the same way that the aircraft does - the 737 is much nicer!

Hope this helps.

Hi Scroggs

OK - it isn't only Oxford that gets the big deals...

...but it is definately limited to Cabair, Oxford or Jerez.

But, then again, I guess the airlines cannot be expected to continuously interview candidates - so popping over to an integrated school and being offered a list of 'promising' pilots from tutors who have known the students for twelve months or so is probably the safest option.

What I'd like to know, is how an older student/graduate goes about getting a job. Even Oxford struggles to place an older low hours fATPL.

Any thoughts?

If £60k is the maximum amount that you have available to spend then my advice is to check and double check your sums and make sure that you go through the price lists at OAT with a fine toothed comb. Check out their forums and get a feel for what it is costing other people who are already there. Also ask how many hours on average they are taking to get through to give you a rough estimate. Treat it just as you would when pricing up a CPL or IR at any other FTO. Add on extra training hours for both the CPL and IR to your budget to be on the safe side bearing in mind the feedback you get from current students. There are loads of threads here on pprune to check on what costs you are likely to be hit with and if they are included in the headline figures etc eg: landing fees, fuel surcharges, 170a fees, uniform charges, positioning costs for doing CAA tests etc. Don't forget accomodation and of course beer money as well!

Last thing you want is to get 90% of the way through the course and be worrying about being able to find the cash to finish.

Got a close friend and former flight training buddy currently doing his APP F.O at OAT. Hes on the modular waypoint training programme doing it long-distance.

He gets a lot of dispensation on his flying hours due to being B-Cat at a VGS.

By doing it longdistance and waypoint hes managing to keep his current full time job and thus ease the financial costs of doing it.

[quote]but it is definately limited to Cabair, Oxford or Jerez[quote]

It's definitely not limited to FTE, Cabair, or OAT. What about CTC? What about modular students? They too get hired by "big airlines". When airlines go to integrated schools, they still interview the students. There is no guarantee, wherever you train, that you will get an airline job. It costs a lot more than £60k to train at OAT. Food, accomodation, and beer money all add up.

Confused here. APP is the name of OAT's integrated course, Waypoint the modular course. So he cannot be doing the APP via Waypoint.

It clearly states on the page that it is an FNPT sim.

Very true, APP Waypoint scheme doesn't exits!

Oxford modular experiences
 

Hi im considering doing a modular course with OAT but dont want to be sold by their brochure, I would like to hear from those who are presently there and are training modularly or have already been through it and can give me some structured info on it! What does the couse include? How much realistically is it? If there is anyone better and employment chances at the end?

Regards Felix.

FNPT/not FNPT trivia aside, The JOC that oxford offer is really just a cherry on the top of a well iced cake. The MCC is all you need full stop. I guess, to be better prepped for a sim assesment at an airline interview it may be a bonus, for alll you know, the sim assesment might not very well be in a 737! FTE's cheaper cource with accomodation icluded isalso another option, smaller class sizes nice weather etc. etc. Their JOC is at an extra cost and is done in a Buisness jet sim, the Hawker I believe...which is apparently programmed to handle like believe it or not.... like a 737!

If you are going integrated, don't do it to just 'put a check the box', yes you've done the course so you expect a job. Do it well. Like Kick ass and kiss some ;) (maybe) get good grades, and as many 1st time passes you can get. Then those "orchestrated" job offers may just come your way, or at least, a letter of recommendation from the CFI.

One thing I would warn people about is doing Modular at OAT if you're not prepared to work very hard to get the first time passes at everything. They DO put forward some modular students to airlines, but it's not many of them and they all have near perfect CVs (as opposed to APP with OK CVs).

You could think that at the end of the day, even if OAT don't put you forward to airlines, you still have the advantage of the OAT name on your CV. Not so. Many airlines, FlyBe being one I know for fact, will not consider OAT graduates who are not recommended by OAT. So for the same CV, as far as grades/passes are concerned, you are better off NOT having done your flying at OAT if you don't have a recommendation from them.

Some might think this is fair enough, i.e. why should an airline give you an interview if OAT don't recommend you (i.e. you must be crap). But unless, like I said above, you have the PERFECT CV and have a fairly brown nose, you just won't be recommended (as modular). This is something to seriously think about since it's going to cost you a lot more to do modular at OAT.

On a slightly different topic, I'd like to point out that when trying to calculate how much flight school and possibly a TR will cost you (if you get a job offer where you have to pay for the TR - please DO NOT pay for a TR unless there is a job at the end of it), you must think about how much it will cost you NOT to be flying jets for a few years. Add an instructor rating, earning very little for a year or two, earning not so much on a turbo-prop for another couple of years, etc. And compare to paying 20k for a rating and earning jet salary for all those years... Not so simple, huh?

I am NOT saying taking a job where you have to pay for a TR is the only way to go. Far from it. A great deal of fun and experience is to be gained from instructing, t-prop, etc. Probably makes you a better pilot. But if you're just looking at numbers, do the maths properly!

Cheers,

P

Take a look at my recent reply to thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=234167

Can't fault the training, very good. But whether modular OAT will give you a much better chance to land an airline job... not so sure! On the other hand you are very unlikely to land a jet job straight out of school without a school like OAT or the other biggies.

So if you're happy (most people are!) starting on twin piston or t-prop, I'm not sure spending the extra cash on a modular OAT course is a good idea.

P

I would be wary of the instructional route. There are fewer and fewer employers who value your skills at instructing someone to fly a c152. In days gone by there was a clear and defined career path to the RHS of a TP or if you were incredibly lucky a jet once you had 1000 hours or so of circuit bashing. Now its not necessarily the case. As always there will be exceptions to the rule.

I think the main benefit instructing can give you is potential contacts. But this of course would only be true of the FTO's that were based at "biggish" airfields and those which have relationships with airlines/operators. Unfortunately most FTO's do not and although the promises of loads of hours and getting to instruct on the trusty club twin lures many a wannabee to teach, it can be a graveyard of false hope. There are many cases of instructors getting paid feable amounts and a pitiful 300 hours pa under their belts whilst relocating at their own expense to some far corner of the country with its own micro weather system which invariably includes heavy rainfall. In these cases you would be no better off than a wannabee who continues working earning a crust and keeps the hours ticking over through joining a group/hiring from a club/trips to the US or a combination of all of these.

Yes, good point, the old instructing route is not what it used to be from what one hears. It's a real shame.

Based on my own experience and friend's, you will need some good networking to get your first job if you choose to go the modular route (unless you manage to get through CTC Wings selection or similar, but age might be a problem). I recommend jobs in Dispatching, Ops, etc. They pay badly but you'll meet training captains, chief pilots, ops directors, etc. That's what counts.

P

Don't you need to get your FATPL before you can get work with any operator, jet or turbo prop? if not how?

Kind Regards,

Felix

OAT (Oxford) - the thread, reborn (Part XXVII)!
 

I was wondering, how difficult is the skills assessment at OAT before you can move onto the integrated course?

dunno I was wondering the same

I just did the assessment at CAbair - found it pretty easy & it only takes half a day

OAT is over 2 days so I imagine it must be more testing than Cabair - would be interested to hear from someone who has done both?

Haha, I was wondering exactly the same aswell. Booking mine sometime this week for a couple of weeks time. You say CabAir was easy? Im not sure how easy it is to get a Prof.Studies Loan @ CabAir, if at all possible.

I managed to do both assessments before finally deciding on OAT. Obviously, the first thing to say is that both assessments do have demanding elements. However, I would believe that OAT is more challenging to get into.

For Cranfield - the assessment takes about half a day and consists of the following:

Maths paper - 90 minutes - 30 questions. (sounds easy, but believe me, you do end up using the full 90 minutes)

Physics paper - 90 minutes - 30 questions

Pilapt testing (another 90 minutes or so!)

And a debrief/interview. Although this was not thorough, it did go over your results objectively.

For OAT, the assessment is on a much larger scale and takes two days. It consists of the following:

Compass Aptitude testing (90 minutes or so!)

Simulator ride on a Seneca-type IR Sim (Probably about 25 minutes, but flies by)

Team Exercises (two situations where you have to demonstrate the ability to work in a team)

Group discussions (two themes or so - 1 aviation related, one current affairs)

Interview (about 45 minutes)

and then finally a debrief where the decision is made.


I would say that in terms of assessing you, the OAT method is much more thorough than Cabair, as they examine several more key aspects.

Out of my groups from the assessment, everyone got into Cabair, and only 50% got into OAT. The other 50% were invited back in 6 months time for reassessment (although I later learnt that one was not at the standard at all).

So that's about it.

Cheers,
CJ

OAT Assesssment
 

I've successfully completed the OAT assessment.

Aswell as the things previosuly mentioned you also have a maths test, physics test and a personality test. (whereby u answer 200 questions). I personally found the Compass tests (computer based ones) the hardest.
One piece of advice - answer honestly for the peronality test - what u think may be the correct answer isn't necessarily what the assessors are looking for!

How does FTE's assessment compare? How does the Compass Test work?

I totally forgot about the personality test. Sorry about that one guys!!

200 questions, all of which are repetitive but just answer truthfully, as any slight deviations will be picked up on.