Jerez and me....!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, England
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jerez and me....!
Since doing my research on my ATPL (to commence [hopefully] in summer 2002) I have had my mind set on Kidlington, due to recomendations and locality. But recently I have heard that British Airways have stopped using Kidlington as their sponsorship school, and have started to use Jerez. If this is true, then I was wondering if anyone had any information, recomendations and stories on Jerez then I would apreciate hearing them, thanks, paul, kebabman
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 50
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
All the approved schools are good. BA are asking for bids from other schools to be tendered. Oxford has historically had criticism for treatment of self-sponsored students, and for crap admin. If you want details of SFT then email me, but I would recommend it, and it's a lot cheaper than OATS.
Jerez have recently sent a bunch of students home because they did not have the staff in groundschool to teach them. Wouldn't refund their money either. Not good business practice.
Jerez have recently sent a bunch of students home because they did not have the staff in groundschool to teach them. Wouldn't refund their money either. Not good business practice.
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: N5153.4 E00015.1
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Send Clowns, I don´t think your info regarding the 4 studets that were sent home is 100% correct, certainly from what I´ve heard around the place. I think they are back now, and joined up with another course. They were in an unfortunate position whereby there should have been some sponsored cadets on the samne course, but they were delayed. This left the course with only four students, and whilst they may not have been treated the best, what was decided certainly makes sense.
As an aside, BA send courses here for JOT/MCC at the moment, but I have it on very good authority that there will be an ab-initio course here very shortly.
As an aside, BA send courses here for JOT/MCC at the moment, but I have it on very good authority that there will be an ab-initio course here very shortly.
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Scotland
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite correct CW a BA Ab initio course will be strating in September.I am sure it will be the first of many. As for the 4 students yes they were subject to a crap management decision, but what school does not make bad decisions!!
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,091
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What do you people think this will mean for BAe. It seems that where BA sends its Cadets, the self-sponsored could be affected, since no-one wants to lose the BA contract.
Does this mean the OATS will learn from its lessons, and treat self sponsored with the same degree of respect as airline cadets in the future?
Does this mean the OATS will learn from its lessons, and treat self sponsored with the same degree of respect as airline cadets in the future?
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 50
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Capt Wannabe
I understand that it was more than 4 students sent home, it was a whole course
. The info came from a good source - shall remain nameless on this forum, but he was there at the time.
BA are sending some students there, I now hear. Yet they still haven't the staff in groundschool or the slots flying-side to run the course. Who do you think is going to get pushed aside, BA cadets or self-sponsored students? So many people imagine a school is good just because BA use it that BAe have to treat BA cadets better than paying customers.
This is the sort of inbformation BAe will not tell you when you enquire after their course!
So it is
The bad management decision was to base in Jerez. They cannot get staff to work there (partly due to Spanish tax system, partly just that most prospective instructors are anglophone). They are now having to fly to booked slots, but they cannot get enough slots to run the courses they have booked. Oh, and several flying instructors have given notice. Tehy have a little problem.
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]
I understand that it was more than 4 students sent home, it was a whole course
. The info came from a good source - shall remain nameless on this forum, but he was there at the time.BA are sending some students there, I now hear. Yet they still haven't the staff in groundschool or the slots flying-side to run the course. Who do you think is going to get pushed aside, BA cadets or self-sponsored students? So many people imagine a school is good just because BA use it that BAe have to treat BA cadets better than paying customers.
This is the sort of inbformation BAe will not tell you when you enquire after their course!
So it is
The bad management decision was to base in Jerez. They cannot get staff to work there (partly due to Spanish tax system, partly just that most prospective instructors are anglophone). They are now having to fly to booked slots, but they cannot get enough slots to run the courses they have booked. Oh, and several flying instructors have given notice. Tehy have a little problem.
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Send Clowns ]
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have heard a rumour that BAe Systems may be looking to downsize their Jerez operation - just too many teething problems plus their Australian school makes them far more money. I find it hard to believe, but it came from a good source - does this tally with anyone else' info at all?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: City Of London
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now the best kept secret 
in aviation is now out, do the ppruners not believe that BAe will go exactly the same way as OATs has done in that self-sponsored students will be treated unequally to BA cadets. I find it difficult to believe that this will not happen in the near future!
All I will reiterate is some advice that WWW gave me, and that was a school is not the best merely because a Major airline sends its cadets there. The airline is looking at cost factors, whereas the self-sponsored student is led to believe they'll stand a better employment chance if they attend the same school.
As someone who felt that BAe Jerez offered the ideal course backed up by numerous recommendations, I will certainly be keeping a close eye on their attitude towards self-sponsored students in the not so distant future.
in aviation is now out, do the ppruners not believe that BAe will go exactly the same way as OATs has done in that self-sponsored students will be treated unequally to BA cadets. I find it difficult to believe that this will not happen in the near future!All I will reiterate is some advice that WWW gave me, and that was a school is not the best merely because a Major airline sends its cadets there. The airline is looking at cost factors, whereas the self-sponsored student is led to believe they'll stand a better employment chance if they attend the same school.
As someone who felt that BAe Jerez offered the ideal course backed up by numerous recommendations, I will certainly be keeping a close eye on their attitude towards self-sponsored students in the not so distant future.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Andover, Hampshire, UK
Posts: 136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm... While at Pilot Assist's seminar last weekend I spoke at length with Derek Rowe about various things, mainly Jarez. I certainly heard nothing bad about the place, many of its instructors are ex-Cabair apparently. He also oversaw the setting up of operations at BAe.
From this thread, I'll keep an eye on their situation... I have been considering training there...
SS
From this thread, I'll keep an eye on their situation... I have been considering training there...
SS
Well I am now out of touch by 6 months from my ex-employer BUT I would be suprised if the self sponsored guys suffer at the hands of the airline guys. There was always a very strong sentiment that this should NOT happen when I was there amongst both the instructors the flight managers and the management.
All I can relate is how I was NOT ONCE put under pressure to give any advantage to an airline sponsored student.
I might go further - now - to say that I for one (and not alone) would often 'nip' 5 minutes here and there during a days worth of flying and 'tag' it onto some hard up self sponsored students sortie out of sympathy.
My attitude was usually that the airline guys were being paid to be there and as such warranted no slack whereas the poor hassled self funded student merited a 'leg up' whenever practicable.
Perhaps that was just me but I *know* the CFI acts in a similar fashion out of sense of fair play.
My previous advice that just because an airline chooses a school you should not be impressed still stands. Search for the relevant threads...
That said it is gratifying to see some ex-comrade students now getting jobs after very brief searches (good luck Rob with 757 at Manch!
)
Perhaps if they are getting desperate for staff they could get me back... £45k and an Extra 300 to play with at least once a week would do it Derek!
WWW
All I can relate is how I was NOT ONCE put under pressure to give any advantage to an airline sponsored student.
I might go further - now - to say that I for one (and not alone) would often 'nip' 5 minutes here and there during a days worth of flying and 'tag' it onto some hard up self sponsored students sortie out of sympathy.
My attitude was usually that the airline guys were being paid to be there and as such warranted no slack whereas the poor hassled self funded student merited a 'leg up' whenever practicable.
Perhaps that was just me but I *know* the CFI acts in a similar fashion out of sense of fair play.
My previous advice that just because an airline chooses a school you should not be impressed still stands. Search for the relevant threads...
That said it is gratifying to see some ex-comrade students now getting jobs after very brief searches (good luck Rob with 757 at Manch!
)Perhaps if they are getting desperate for staff they could get me back... £45k and an Extra 300 to play with at least once a week would do it Derek!
WWW
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Jerez
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Send Clowns,
A whole course was sent home yes but not the way you describe it. A Middle Eastern airline who was to send eight cadets to Jerez pulled out at the last minute (rumour has it that there were problems with the level of English spoken) leaving four self sponsored guys. This clearly being a waste of resources - they were sent home, expenses paid, and suitably compensated. They are now back and merging with another course at the point they left off.
BA apparently sending a bunch of ab initios out here in a week or two.
A whole course was sent home yes but not the way you describe it. A Middle Eastern airline who was to send eight cadets to Jerez pulled out at the last minute (rumour has it that there were problems with the level of English spoken) leaving four self sponsored guys. This clearly being a waste of resources - they were sent home, expenses paid, and suitably compensated. They are now back and merging with another course at the point they left off.
BA apparently sending a bunch of ab initios out here in a week or two.
Guest
Posts: n/a
WWW:
[ is this the Welsh version of the Klu Klux Klan ??? - sorry, bin reading THEM by Jon Ronson - amazing book, I digress... ]
Jerez - OK, we'll take it as read that they don't pull yer plonker like OATS, but are they really superior to that rabble from Bournmouth or any other place? - i.e. will Jerez get you job on the RHS of an airliner flightdeck quicker that yer bog standard modular ATPL
Yours inquisitively [ and in no way racially ] Blackshirt xxx
(edited due to being happy pished)
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Blackshirt ]
[ is this the Welsh version of the Klu Klux Klan ??? - sorry, bin reading THEM by Jon Ronson - amazing book, I digress... ]
Jerez - OK, we'll take it as read that they don't pull yer plonker like OATS, but are they really superior to that rabble from Bournmouth or any other place? - i.e. will Jerez get you job on the RHS of an airliner flightdeck quicker that yer bog standard modular ATPL
Yours inquisitively [ and in no way racially ] Blackshirt xxx
(edited due to being happy pished)
[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: Blackshirt ]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Surely the point we have seen for a while now on these sort of threads is that NONEof the schools can promise any jobs and that anyone that goes to a school for this reason is WASTING their money.
It has been said before and I am right up there with WWW - go to a school cos you like it, the people and the training. Ultimately everybody will end up with the same qualifications - NO-ONE can promise you a job as no-one knows what the market will be like when you finish your training.
As a point towards that - note that all sponsored students are NOT guaranteed jobs on completion of training and are told that they might be offered alternative employment (cabin-crew) or just allowed to walk away without repaying the ATPL costs.
As regards what BAE might end up like - again who knows. You can not bet on anything in life so you might as well plump for the school you like best after ahving looked at all of them. Why wasn't anyone impressed with the fact that Aer Lingus and Airtours send their cadets there?????? They are both quality airlines that surely any wannabee would want to fly with as well!!!
I don't think I will ever understand the obsession with BA. Great airline for sure but there are others out there that I would also kill to fly for!
It has been said before and I am right up there with WWW - go to a school cos you like it, the people and the training. Ultimately everybody will end up with the same qualifications - NO-ONE can promise you a job as no-one knows what the market will be like when you finish your training.
As a point towards that - note that all sponsored students are NOT guaranteed jobs on completion of training and are told that they might be offered alternative employment (cabin-crew) or just allowed to walk away without repaying the ATPL costs.
As regards what BAE might end up like - again who knows. You can not bet on anything in life so you might as well plump for the school you like best after ahving looked at all of them. Why wasn't anyone impressed with the fact that Aer Lingus and Airtours send their cadets there?????? They are both quality airlines that surely any wannabee would want to fly with as well!!!
I don't think I will ever understand the obsession with BA. Great airline for sure but there are others out there that I would also kill to fly for!
Blackshirt - as I have said many many times - the school at which you train has little relevance to getting a job. Airlines tend to view all the large ones as being equivalent and a good portion of CP's don't give a damn where you trained.
WWW
WWW
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: N5153.4 E00015.1
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Send Clowns
Yes it was a whole course, and yes it was 4 people.
There is absolutely no question of self-sponsored students getting pushed aside. Anyone who suggests that is simply misinformed. If anything there may be a slight bias towards them in some aspects of the operation.
As I understand it, it has never been BAE's intentions to get loads of massive airline contracts so there is no reason for them to end up the way Oxford have.
sydneyc
I don't think the plan is to downsize it. They aim to have a number of students which is around 150-160, and stick at that rather than try to expand.
Blackshirt
No college or training establishment is going to get a job for you. At some time you have to stand up for yourself and do a bit of work in looking. Of course if they give you references and put you in touch with people then that is obviously an advantage.
Potato Head
Agree totally with your comments.
Yes it was a whole course, and yes it was 4 people.
There is absolutely no question of self-sponsored students getting pushed aside. Anyone who suggests that is simply misinformed. If anything there may be a slight bias towards them in some aspects of the operation.
As I understand it, it has never been BAE's intentions to get loads of massive airline contracts so there is no reason for them to end up the way Oxford have.
sydneyc
I don't think the plan is to downsize it. They aim to have a number of students which is around 150-160, and stick at that rather than try to expand.
Blackshirt
No college or training establishment is going to get a job for you. At some time you have to stand up for yourself and do a bit of work in looking. Of course if they give you references and put you in touch with people then that is obviously an advantage.
Potato Head
Agree totally with your comments.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hey, CW!
I wasn't trying to ask whether Jerez themselves find their students jobs.
I was casting out for opinions whether going to Jerez would make getting that illusive first job any easier, whether that by the reputation of the school [as OATS strongly imply is case for their ex-students], or by getting simply getting more 1st time passes in the various tests.
If it doesn't, why would anyone possibly pay £10-15k over the odds compared to say SFT??!!
[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Blackshirt ]
I wasn't trying to ask whether Jerez themselves find their students jobs.
I was casting out for opinions whether going to Jerez would make getting that illusive first job any easier, whether that by the reputation of the school [as OATS strongly imply is case for their ex-students], or by getting simply getting more 1st time passes in the various tests.
If it doesn't, why would anyone possibly pay £10-15k over the odds compared to say SFT??!!
[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Blackshirt ]
Jet Blast Rat
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sarfend-on-Sea
Age: 50
Posts: 2,081
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, I will accept that there may have only been 4 self-sponsored students on the course. However they were sent home which is very poor business practice. One could not afford the time wasted, and requested the return of his money so he could go elsewhere. He was refused, which is disgraceful.
The reason the course was not run was lack of manpower. My source is very good (I will not identify here). In any case, lack of students is no excuse at all. SFT ran a course for three students, which dropped to 1 (me) when 2 delayed the second phase of ATPL groundschool for different reasons (now those that know me from SFT will be able to identify me!). I had one-on-one tuition from some of the best instructors around. These two students and I had booked the course, so our bookings were honoured. The school was at the time working with almost complete flexibility because of the early struggles with JAR exams. Not all schools were so helpful.
The reason the course was not run was lack of manpower. My source is very good (I will not identify here). In any case, lack of students is no excuse at all. SFT ran a course for three students, which dropped to 1 (me) when 2 delayed the second phase of ATPL groundschool for different reasons (now those that know me from SFT will be able to identify me!). I had one-on-one tuition from some of the best instructors around. These two students and I had booked the course, so our bookings were honoured. The school was at the time working with almost complete flexibility because of the early struggles with JAR exams. Not all schools were so helpful.