WHEN to do the IR
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WHEN to do the IR
I am a PPL and want to go on to to be a commercial pilot, airlines one day.
I have been advised by my CAA Examiner that i could do the ATPLs, then do the CPL training with a FI rating and then instruct for x years or whatever.
He advised NOT to get the IR rating until i was ready for an airline job as i would hardly ever use instrument flying in a daily situation (usually) and would have to keep it current which is expensive but said with an IMC rating i could instruct to IMC level.
Just wondered what other thought about this idea.
Thanks
I have been advised by my CAA Examiner that i could do the ATPLs, then do the CPL training with a FI rating and then instruct for x years or whatever.
He advised NOT to get the IR rating until i was ready for an airline job as i would hardly ever use instrument flying in a daily situation (usually) and would have to keep it current which is expensive but said with an IMC rating i could instruct to IMC level.
Just wondered what other thought about this idea.
Thanks
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Yes,
I believe his advice to be correct on two counts.
Firstly, an IR is far less daunting when you have a few hours under your belt.
Secondly, the cost of maintaining an IR is acording to this forum arounf 2K per year. Personally, I recon this to be a bit on the high side, but you get the picture.
PS
I believe his advice to be correct on two counts.
Firstly, an IR is far less daunting when you have a few hours under your belt.
Secondly, the cost of maintaining an IR is acording to this forum arounf 2K per year. Personally, I recon this to be a bit on the high side, but you get the picture.
PS
Fair points but once you've completed the ATPL exams, the clock starts ticking for you to complete the IR before your exam credits lapse to CPL status. I'm suer Rolling Circle or someone equally knowledgeable of the JARs can you give the timeframe and reference regulation.
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Have you though about getting the FAA IR? You get the IMC for free and it'll make you a competent instrument pilot, so when you take the JAA IR you should pass in the minimum hrs. Also, you never know but in the future it may not be nescessary for an ICAO IR holder to do the complete JAA IR course, just do a conversion course....
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Ham Phisted am I right in thinking that you implied in your last post that after the 36 month validity period of ATPL theory passes it downgrades to CPL? If so how long are they valid for after that as CPL credits?
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Hi Spitfire
I think the CAA guy gave you some good advice.
after your exams and CPL your money is best spent on an instructors rating. Its better to remain instructing (only if you enjoy it and your students get value from you ! )until you have 500-600 hours TT. As this point you will ensure you get through the IR in the minimum approved course hours and your CV will look better than guys who are not in current flying practice and have very low P1 hours.
As an IRE I conduct about 70 renewals a year half of which are for guys who have not flown a twin since their last renewal or initial test but feel they must maintain the IR for the CV.
It is usual for them to require a sim trip followed by a dual flight with an insructor
before they feel comfortable at attemting the renewal (revalidation). The pass rate is very good because I do not fly the test unless the instructor conducting the dual flight is happy the guy will pass, I quess the typical cost is around £800 - £900.
Hope this helps Good Luck!
I think the CAA guy gave you some good advice.
after your exams and CPL your money is best spent on an instructors rating. Its better to remain instructing (only if you enjoy it and your students get value from you ! )until you have 500-600 hours TT. As this point you will ensure you get through the IR in the minimum approved course hours and your CV will look better than guys who are not in current flying practice and have very low P1 hours.
As an IRE I conduct about 70 renewals a year half of which are for guys who have not flown a twin since their last renewal or initial test but feel they must maintain the IR for the CV.
It is usual for them to require a sim trip followed by a dual flight with an insructor
before they feel comfortable at attemting the renewal (revalidation). The pass rate is very good because I do not fly the test unless the instructor conducting the dual flight is happy the guy will pass, I quess the typical cost is around £800 - £900.
Hope this helps Good Luck!
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Another thought for you. I looked at doing the IR back in 1997-98 when things were pretty good. All of the schools had 6 month waiting lists to start the IR. At the moment you can just walk in and start straight away. When the market turns around (and it will) the waiting lists will return. I would say do it as soon as you can.
Getting it out of the way is a massive commitment.I've just done mine and it was the hardest thing I have ever done. It took far longer and cost a lot more than I had planned.I know several people who got half way through and dropped out (no money left , no time left or lost it all at SFT). Hats off to everyone with an IR out there.
Having said all of that I am glad I did it. I certainly feel more confident about IFR flying than I did with the IMC. And who knows, if BA need pilots anyone with an IR is ready, anyone without is not.
Getting it out of the way is a massive commitment.I've just done mine and it was the hardest thing I have ever done. It took far longer and cost a lot more than I had planned.I know several people who got half way through and dropped out (no money left , no time left or lost it all at SFT). Hats off to everyone with an IR out there.
Having said all of that I am glad I did it. I certainly feel more confident about IFR flying than I did with the IMC. And who knows, if BA need pilots anyone with an IR is ready, anyone without is not.
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Hello
Could someone please confirm that the 36 months stated in the above thread Start when a pass has been achieved in all of the ATPL exams. Also while your at it please let me know the time frame to complete the ATPL exams, its 18 months from the month you took your first exam innit eh! ?
Ta
Hoodwink
Could someone please confirm that the 36 months stated in the above thread Start when a pass has been achieved in all of the ATPL exams. Also while your at it please let me know the time frame to complete the ATPL exams, its 18 months from the month you took your first exam innit eh! ?
Ta
Hoodwink
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Hoodwink,
A quote from 'the guide to getting a Commercial Pilot Licence' by Clive Hughes (PS a very good book for anyone trying to understand what they need to do to get CPL/IR/ATPL etc....)
[quote] A pass in the JAA ATPL written exams will be accepted for the issue of the CPL or IR during the 36 months from the date of the final pass in these exams and provided that an IR is obtained during this perios=d, the ATPL theory credit will remain valid for a period of 7 years from the ;ast validity date of the IR entered in the CPL.
<hr></blockquote>
Also
[quote] All the exams must be completed within a period of 18 months from the end of the calenda month when the applicant first attempted an exam. <hr></blockquote>
A quote from 'the guide to getting a Commercial Pilot Licence' by Clive Hughes (PS a very good book for anyone trying to understand what they need to do to get CPL/IR/ATPL etc....)
[quote] A pass in the JAA ATPL written exams will be accepted for the issue of the CPL or IR during the 36 months from the date of the final pass in these exams and provided that an IR is obtained during this perios=d, the ATPL theory credit will remain valid for a period of 7 years from the ;ast validity date of the IR entered in the CPL.
<hr></blockquote>
Also
[quote] All the exams must be completed within a period of 18 months from the end of the calenda month when the applicant first attempted an exam. <hr></blockquote>
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A third way?
The third way I propose to you is to consider doing a Single engine IR as a follow on/combined with an IMC (if you have an old CAA PPL you can even get a 12 hour reduction off the course up to mid next year).
The single engine IR is cheaper and easier to do and you will definitely use it more as it gives you access to airways and a deeper practicality level than IMC. If you go the single engined instructor way of building hours it helps teaching IMC.
The single engine IR holds your JAR APTL credits, it is cheaper to renew and if you want to unrestrict it to a twin engine IR, the minimum hours required to upgrade to twin IR (according to JAR) is 5 hours dual + exam (if you have a twin class rating).
The route I'm proposing to you will work out more expensive in the long run than the short sharp one year route. This route is best suited to those people who want to take a more leasurely 5 year+ approach or maybe just want to do flying as a part time vocation and have a real life at the same time.
This route is a half way house and it allows you to slowly build and gain more experience with less worry on the finance and pressure on the CAA deadlines. You will only have to commit to that twin IR test at the very last minute and you will only have to do a minimum 5 hours to get it - that's nearly the same as a twin renewal!!!
I'm sure the experts on the JAR matters will confirm what I'm saying is correct.
Best regards and good luck with your training what ever route you take.
The third way I propose to you is to consider doing a Single engine IR as a follow on/combined with an IMC (if you have an old CAA PPL you can even get a 12 hour reduction off the course up to mid next year).
The single engine IR is cheaper and easier to do and you will definitely use it more as it gives you access to airways and a deeper practicality level than IMC. If you go the single engined instructor way of building hours it helps teaching IMC.
The single engine IR holds your JAR APTL credits, it is cheaper to renew and if you want to unrestrict it to a twin engine IR, the minimum hours required to upgrade to twin IR (according to JAR) is 5 hours dual + exam (if you have a twin class rating).
The route I'm proposing to you will work out more expensive in the long run than the short sharp one year route. This route is best suited to those people who want to take a more leasurely 5 year+ approach or maybe just want to do flying as a part time vocation and have a real life at the same time.
This route is a half way house and it allows you to slowly build and gain more experience with less worry on the finance and pressure on the CAA deadlines. You will only have to commit to that twin IR test at the very last minute and you will only have to do a minimum 5 hours to get it - that's nearly the same as a twin renewal!!!
I'm sure the experts on the JAR matters will confirm what I'm saying is correct.
Best regards and good luck with your training what ever route you take.
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This validity of ATPL theory exams still seems to be confusing to me.I have passed the CAA ATPL exams and recently called a flight school to give me information about the Commercial skill test and also the Instrument Rating that I thought I had to do before the 30 June 2002 in order to get a CAA license issued .They told me that there is only JAA Commercial training now and that if I do it and get a JAA CPL issued then my ATPL THEORY EXAMS never expire and I can do the IR whenever I want.Can anybody clarify the situation of ATPL'S validity?Has any new regulation come out about CAA ATPL theory credits?
I will appreciate any comments on this
I will appreciate any comments on this
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Alpha,
If you are low hours student and cannot make the June 30th 2002 date for CAA CPL, your route to glory now must be:
JAA CPL(A)(R) from BCPL(A) on a complex single skill test by examiner.
OR
JAA CPL(A) via CAA flight test on a complex single.
When you have been issued a JAA CPL by the CAA, you have 36 months from the end of the month you took your last written exam (whether it was a CAA or a JAA exam. Within this time one thing you have to achieve an Instrument Rating and have it applied to your licience otherwise you will have to sit your exams again.
Only when you have achieved a pass at the IR can your credits be secured for a further time period of the order of 5 years or so from the date of the IR exam.
30th June 2002 will only be beneficial to you if you wish to use the CAA 'loopholes' of achieving an IR on reduced hours by having an IMC rating or achieve a UK CPL(A)/IR (then your credits will be "frozen indefinitely").
Unfortunately, everyone I speak to on this 36 month matter is comming from a different situation. I advise you to email the CAA or better still go and talk to them directly. When you get the answer, take it back to the flying organisation who gave you the advice and see what they say. Sereval iterations will be required to achieve the truth.
I've been in situations in the past where the CAA and the flying organisations have both got the 'best route for you' wrong and initial advice has been incorrect. In fairness to both types of organisation, there have been times where no one has understood what was going on with rules as they were changing on a monthly basis.
At present the 36 month rule applies and has been one of these new time deadlines slipped in by the JAR policymakers. It has been objected to by a number of people who take the slower route to 'ATPL(A)/IR utopia' and instruct for some time before moving up to larger aircraft.
Furthermore, it is questionable as to whether the 36 month 'loss of credits' is enforceable as the removal of IR unrelated credits (ATPL exams) in such a manner can be seen as a breach of EU human rights. So when the new European Aerospace Body comes into existance and removes the powers of the CAA that will be one of the first things to go.
Alternately, we could have the situation where every JAR pilot re-sits these exams every 36 months to force a level playing field. That would be just achievable as far as I'm concerned, but I'd be interested in how many 50 year old commanders would be up for that with failure meaning losing your job. But that's a argument for another day and another time.......
Like all other initial career based written exams, once they are passed they should passed for life. Unfortunately, this is not the case and you have 36 months to comply. Be totally sure of your situation, check directly with the CAA. The last thing on earth you want to do is re-sit the JAR ATPL exams.
If you are low hours student and cannot make the June 30th 2002 date for CAA CPL, your route to glory now must be:
JAA CPL(A)(R) from BCPL(A) on a complex single skill test by examiner.
OR
JAA CPL(A) via CAA flight test on a complex single.
When you have been issued a JAA CPL by the CAA, you have 36 months from the end of the month you took your last written exam (whether it was a CAA or a JAA exam. Within this time one thing you have to achieve an Instrument Rating and have it applied to your licience otherwise you will have to sit your exams again.
Only when you have achieved a pass at the IR can your credits be secured for a further time period of the order of 5 years or so from the date of the IR exam.
30th June 2002 will only be beneficial to you if you wish to use the CAA 'loopholes' of achieving an IR on reduced hours by having an IMC rating or achieve a UK CPL(A)/IR (then your credits will be "frozen indefinitely").
Unfortunately, everyone I speak to on this 36 month matter is comming from a different situation. I advise you to email the CAA or better still go and talk to them directly. When you get the answer, take it back to the flying organisation who gave you the advice and see what they say. Sereval iterations will be required to achieve the truth.
I've been in situations in the past where the CAA and the flying organisations have both got the 'best route for you' wrong and initial advice has been incorrect. In fairness to both types of organisation, there have been times where no one has understood what was going on with rules as they were changing on a monthly basis.
At present the 36 month rule applies and has been one of these new time deadlines slipped in by the JAR policymakers. It has been objected to by a number of people who take the slower route to 'ATPL(A)/IR utopia' and instruct for some time before moving up to larger aircraft.
Furthermore, it is questionable as to whether the 36 month 'loss of credits' is enforceable as the removal of IR unrelated credits (ATPL exams) in such a manner can be seen as a breach of EU human rights. So when the new European Aerospace Body comes into existance and removes the powers of the CAA that will be one of the first things to go.
Alternately, we could have the situation where every JAR pilot re-sits these exams every 36 months to force a level playing field. That would be just achievable as far as I'm concerned, but I'd be interested in how many 50 year old commanders would be up for that with failure meaning losing your job. But that's a argument for another day and another time.......
Like all other initial career based written exams, once they are passed they should passed for life. Unfortunately, this is not the case and you have 36 months to comply. Be totally sure of your situation, check directly with the CAA. The last thing on earth you want to do is re-sit the JAR ATPL exams.
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Quarternion,
The idea of doing a SE IR appealed to me but I don't think the ATPLs will last beyond this licence issue. ie you still have to do the twin IR within 36 months of passing the ATPLs. Also the course is the same length and since only the last 15 hours of the rating are on a twin the cost difference is not as big as it sounds.
Also once you have the twin IR you can then renew on a single for 5 years before having to do it on the twin again.
The idea of doing a SE IR appealed to me but I don't think the ATPLs will last beyond this licence issue. ie you still have to do the twin IR within 36 months of passing the ATPLs. Also the course is the same length and since only the last 15 hours of the rating are on a twin the cost difference is not as big as it sounds.
Also once you have the twin IR you can then renew on a single for 5 years before having to do it on the twin again.
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The man formally known as....
Cheers for your point....
Perhaps someone else can come in your point about the "twin" I/R having to be done 36 months after the ATPLs.
Can you or someone else can point out to me where in JAR it states that the I/R has to be done on a twin as opposed to a single to secure these exam credits. Indeed all it states is an I/R has to be achieved.
With regards to hours, checkout GID15 on the CAA website. 50hrs for a single I/R - (55 hrs for a twin I/R). Of which 20hrs can be done on a FNPT1 sim. You can have a 12hr discount for IMC if you have a CAA PPL. So If you are pretty current on singles and just done an IMC. You should be able to do the I/R in the minimum hours i.e. 18 hours airborne and 20 hours sim time. That equates to about £6000 (including the test flight & fee at some half decent schools). You will probably burn £6000 on twin flying alone if you go the other way. Remember, If you fail or partial, the costs are lower so the pressure on you is lower.
Admittedly the twin I/R is the bees knees, but if you want to go up to the twin I/R, all you do 5hrs twin training of which 3 hrs can be done in a sim + test (if you have a Multi engine rating 6-7 hrs twin) + test (approx 3hrs). Correct me if I'm wrong but that equates to less than 15 hrs if you do it the normal way. Now the chances of this being done are incredibly slim - but nothing is impossible.
I just don't see the point of doing a twin I/R and trying to keep it current, when you can make more use of a single I/R and its cheaper to keep current etc as I've stated before.
But, it all hinges on whether the single I/R will secure your credits. I'm pretty sure that this is a valid route. I'll put this to the CAA and get this straight from the horses mouth... might take a few weeks to get an answer though!!!!
Cheers for your point....
Perhaps someone else can come in your point about the "twin" I/R having to be done 36 months after the ATPLs.
Can you or someone else can point out to me where in JAR it states that the I/R has to be done on a twin as opposed to a single to secure these exam credits. Indeed all it states is an I/R has to be achieved.
With regards to hours, checkout GID15 on the CAA website. 50hrs for a single I/R - (55 hrs for a twin I/R). Of which 20hrs can be done on a FNPT1 sim. You can have a 12hr discount for IMC if you have a CAA PPL. So If you are pretty current on singles and just done an IMC. You should be able to do the I/R in the minimum hours i.e. 18 hours airborne and 20 hours sim time. That equates to about £6000 (including the test flight & fee at some half decent schools). You will probably burn £6000 on twin flying alone if you go the other way. Remember, If you fail or partial, the costs are lower so the pressure on you is lower.
Admittedly the twin I/R is the bees knees, but if you want to go up to the twin I/R, all you do 5hrs twin training of which 3 hrs can be done in a sim + test (if you have a Multi engine rating 6-7 hrs twin) + test (approx 3hrs). Correct me if I'm wrong but that equates to less than 15 hrs if you do it the normal way. Now the chances of this being done are incredibly slim - but nothing is impossible.
I just don't see the point of doing a twin I/R and trying to keep it current, when you can make more use of a single I/R and its cheaper to keep current etc as I've stated before.
But, it all hinges on whether the single I/R will secure your credits. I'm pretty sure that this is a valid route. I'll put this to the CAA and get this straight from the horses mouth... might take a few weeks to get an answer though!!!!
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Thank you for your replies guys.I think getting the single engine IR as Quarterion says is a good idea,since it is cheaper and faster and at the time being there is not too many jobs in the airlines.
One thing that I still don't understand.Do I get 5 years credit for the exams if I just pass the IR and still have a private license or do I need to have a CPL/IR?Is there still a minimum requirement of 700 hrs to get a CAA CPL issued?
I hope I didn't make you confused
One thing that I still don't understand.Do I get 5 years credit for the exams if I just pass the IR and still have a private license or do I need to have a CPL/IR?Is there still a minimum requirement of 700 hrs to get a CAA CPL issued?
I hope I didn't make you confused
