Those with a frozen ATPL
As a lazy illustration I can off the top of my head name 17 people with Frzn ATPLs with whom I have flown who are looking for jobs. 17. Who have flown with me...
Since Sept 2001 between CABAIR, BAE, OATS, BFC, Mutiflight, Ravenair, Tayflight, PAT and Exeter there have been 430 CPL/IR courses graduated. I doubt a single one of them has got a job. (figure derived from chats with staff and recent students).
For those on other threads vainly trying to garner the CAA data for how many people are hitting the market with low hours I will give (nudge nudge) you a hint. MCC certificate issues.
I echo the reiteration made by Scroggs. DO NOT clamour to join the hundreds upon hundreds of unemployed 200hr pilots currently in the UK worried sick about staying current. Yes the jobs will come back. Yes that may happen within six months (Sept 11th is not going to be as bad as the Gulf War and associated UK recession period in my humble opinion). Yes it is worth becoming a professional pilot. No it probably is not worth spending big money or changing your life in a big way for another couple of years.
My comiserations to all those who had already spent that money and made those changes prior to Sept 11. To Rob, Russell,Mike, Graham, Paul, Ollie, Dermot, Nigel, Brian, Peter, Paul, Alex, Diane, Callaghan, Dowdy, Sunni and Benni my comiserations...
And for those considering instructing at large FTO's, when I joined BAE in Jerez I had a little over 1,000 instructing hours under my belt and was quite lucky to get the job to be honest. Acouple of years down the line as we are and with the collapse of big schools such as SFT and cutbacks at most others I would be lucky indeed to repeat that success...
Good luck, as Scroggs intoned - a couple of years flying differnet things for a couple of thousand hours before you hit your first airline does you good.
Cheers,
WWW
Since Sept 2001 between CABAIR, BAE, OATS, BFC, Mutiflight, Ravenair, Tayflight, PAT and Exeter there have been 430 CPL/IR courses graduated. I doubt a single one of them has got a job. (figure derived from chats with staff and recent students).
For those on other threads vainly trying to garner the CAA data for how many people are hitting the market with low hours I will give (nudge nudge) you a hint. MCC certificate issues.
I echo the reiteration made by Scroggs. DO NOT clamour to join the hundreds upon hundreds of unemployed 200hr pilots currently in the UK worried sick about staying current. Yes the jobs will come back. Yes that may happen within six months (Sept 11th is not going to be as bad as the Gulf War and associated UK recession period in my humble opinion). Yes it is worth becoming a professional pilot. No it probably is not worth spending big money or changing your life in a big way for another couple of years.
My comiserations to all those who had already spent that money and made those changes prior to Sept 11. To Rob, Russell,Mike, Graham, Paul, Ollie, Dermot, Nigel, Brian, Peter, Paul, Alex, Diane, Callaghan, Dowdy, Sunni and Benni my comiserations...
And for those considering instructing at large FTO's, when I joined BAE in Jerez I had a little over 1,000 instructing hours under my belt and was quite lucky to get the job to be honest. Acouple of years down the line as we are and with the collapse of big schools such as SFT and cutbacks at most others I would be lucky indeed to repeat that success...
Good luck, as Scroggs intoned - a couple of years flying differnet things for a couple of thousand hours before you hit your first airline does you good.
Cheers,
WWW
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Chocks Away,
Not sure I disagree with any of your comments, opinions or observations. Personally I'd fly a hang glider if they were log able hours which would help me towards that turbo or jet job. Unclear though about when you plan to take the leap? Or are you in wait + see mode? I know Scroggs + WWW are strongly advising this mode, but afraid I personally can wait no longer - 20+ years with same dream/ambition, a man could get restless!
As I've mentioned I'm planning to finish end of 2003. I know it's a gamble (even after much research followed by holding back about 6 months from original plan) but hey what isn't?
Not sure I disagree with any of your comments, opinions or observations. Personally I'd fly a hang glider if they were log able hours which would help me towards that turbo or jet job. Unclear though about when you plan to take the leap? Or are you in wait + see mode? I know Scroggs + WWW are strongly advising this mode, but afraid I personally can wait no longer - 20+ years with same dream/ambition, a man could get restless!
As I've mentioned I'm planning to finish end of 2003. I know it's a gamble (even after much research followed by holding back about 6 months from original plan) but hey what isn't?
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BillyFish,
I have wanted to fly from childhood, but teachers etc told me I wasn't clever enough. I took the easy route and went through college and did IT courses and am now 25 and a senior IT engineer. I work under a flight path and see airliners everyday. I'm ready to burst as I am sure are so many other wannabes.
Although I said I was waiting, I am definatly doing the modular route. This summer I am looking to get my PPL, then will look at sitting the distance ATPL school using Bristol. This way I can stay employed and slowly start to work towards my goal. I think that if in your heart you know you want something then with hard work and patience it will come.
The best things come to those that wait ?
Good luck with your training and keep us informed.
I have wanted to fly from childhood, but teachers etc told me I wasn't clever enough. I took the easy route and went through college and did IT courses and am now 25 and a senior IT engineer. I work under a flight path and see airliners everyday. I'm ready to burst as I am sure are so many other wannabes.
Although I said I was waiting, I am definatly doing the modular route. This summer I am looking to get my PPL, then will look at sitting the distance ATPL school using Bristol. This way I can stay employed and slowly start to work towards my goal. I think that if in your heart you know you want something then with hard work and patience it will come.
The best things come to those that wait ?
Good luck with your training and keep us informed.
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Without doubt this is one of the very best threads I have ever seen on PPRUNE. My sympathies to all those who have FATPL and still no job.
I currently work for 'the world's favourite airline' but in IT. All my life I have wanted to be a pilot but first the Gulf War (On a holding list for BA final selection until outside age criteria for sponsorship) and now Sept 11th have scuppered my plans.
I was all set to start at SFT last November but held fire after Sept events. I wanted to answer the question 'why people are still signing up for ATPL courses?' It's simply because you get one life and spending the next 20-30 years dreading every day in an office is no way to spend it.
Tomorrow it seems there will be a big announcement of redundancies in BA and once again I and others are at a career crossroads. Bleak as the airline industry is at present even I have toyed with throwing any severance money I might get at an ATPL.
Would doing so really be that crazy or is it better to spend 25 years being bored at work?
Desk-pilot
I currently work for 'the world's favourite airline' but in IT. All my life I have wanted to be a pilot but first the Gulf War (On a holding list for BA final selection until outside age criteria for sponsorship) and now Sept 11th have scuppered my plans.
I was all set to start at SFT last November but held fire after Sept events. I wanted to answer the question 'why people are still signing up for ATPL courses?' It's simply because you get one life and spending the next 20-30 years dreading every day in an office is no way to spend it.
Tomorrow it seems there will be a big announcement of redundancies in BA and once again I and others are at a career crossroads. Bleak as the airline industry is at present even I have toyed with throwing any severance money I might get at an ATPL.
Would doing so really be that crazy or is it better to spend 25 years being bored at work?
Desk-pilot
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I posted a message on this thread a couple of days ago to add my experiences to those who had also obtained their FATPL through an integrated course. I have since read only a daily basis, and with much interest, the experiences and thought processes of others. This thread truly extols the virtues of PPrune. Any Wannabes who have read through this have just obtained a wealth of knowledge.
Before starting my course I tried to do as much research as possible, and decided that OATS would be the best way forward for me at that time. By reading this thread so many options are covered, and anyone looking to start the work towards an FATPL can be better informed.
As for "Would doing so really be that crazy or is it better to spend 25 years being bored at work?". Hell no! Start the ball rolling. Even if its on a part time basis to go and get your PPL, etc its going to be worth it. The more experience you get now the more benefit it will be to you when you go for your CPL / IR. Also, more hours to put on your CV at the end of the day. It must be clear from this thread that you don't need to take a big jump, and give up your job straight away. Get some books together and start studying earlier. It will save you money in ground courses. OATS sell their manuals (they are very good, and cover far more than you need to know for the exams) by themselves through Jepps.
Before starting my course I tried to do as much research as possible, and decided that OATS would be the best way forward for me at that time. By reading this thread so many options are covered, and anyone looking to start the work towards an FATPL can be better informed.
As for "Would doing so really be that crazy or is it better to spend 25 years being bored at work?". Hell no! Start the ball rolling. Even if its on a part time basis to go and get your PPL, etc its going to be worth it. The more experience you get now the more benefit it will be to you when you go for your CPL / IR. Also, more hours to put on your CV at the end of the day. It must be clear from this thread that you don't need to take a big jump, and give up your job straight away. Get some books together and start studying earlier. It will save you money in ground courses. OATS sell their manuals (they are very good, and cover far more than you need to know for the exams) by themselves through Jepps.
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Guys,
Just read this tread and thought I would add my tuppence worth. I am in the very fortunate position to have been sponsored by BA and joined the airline in early 2001, so in terms of timing, I was very lucky.
I trained at OATS but did the Jet Orientation Course in Jerez. I was only there for a month, but in my humble opinion, Jerez is a superb setup. In terms of facilities, aircraft, instruction, lifestyle and most importantly cost, I believe it is far superior to Oxford.
Contrary to many comments on this site, us BA guys do feel for our self sponsored colleagues. Stick in there guys, I truly believe things will begin to pick up within the next 6 months.
Ta tres much...
The Dog
Just read this tread and thought I would add my tuppence worth. I am in the very fortunate position to have been sponsored by BA and joined the airline in early 2001, so in terms of timing, I was very lucky.
I trained at OATS but did the Jet Orientation Course in Jerez. I was only there for a month, but in my humble opinion, Jerez is a superb setup. In terms of facilities, aircraft, instruction, lifestyle and most importantly cost, I believe it is far superior to Oxford.
Contrary to many comments on this site, us BA guys do feel for our self sponsored colleagues. Stick in there guys, I truly believe things will begin to pick up within the next 6 months.
Ta tres much...
The Dog
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Guys and girls,. .I admire your optimism! A small suggestion: let's see what BA's announcements tomorrow will bring. I suspect that there will be far-reaching consequences for all those hoping to join the UK industry. Let's hope that the news isn't too bad.. .As for the suggestion that things are on the up - yes they are, but a lot of capacity has been taken out of the UK industry (and there will be more tomorrow, I'm sure), and it will take some time for the backlog to clear. It's far easier to reinstate staff in the booking offices and call centres than it is in flying....
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I can still recall, when I started at Oxford, as a self sponsored student, how a charming sponsored BA lady told us all that their class are Gonnabees, and we are all wannabees! . .Well who cares, fortunately ended up working for BA. . .For all those seeking first time employment, don't give up, don't stop and go out of your way, and be different, to get that first job.. .we have all been there pulling our hair out but I feel it will not be long before things have come full circle, employment for Pilots will start again anf there will be a shortage of pilots within the next couple of years.
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From the BBC:
"British Airways Cuts 5,800 More Jobs.
The total of 13,000 job cuts will include 400 pilots, 3,400 cabin crew, 800 customer services staff at Heathrow, 550 customer services staff at Gatwick, 1,500 engineers, 2,600 world sales staff and 800 cargo employees.
There will also be 2,950 others, mainly among head office and support staff.
About 6,600 of the jobs will be cut from Heathrow, 3,000 from Gatwick, 1,200 from regional bases in the UK, and 2,200 will go overseas."
ARGGGHHHHH, time to sit tight and be thankful I've got a job.
My sympathies to all those affected, even Shorty's Gonnabe, possibly hasbeen lady.
WWW, Scroggs, any idea how long this will set things back by, or is that a bloody stupid question?!!! And to think you guys were being branded as doomsayers a couple of months ago.
<img src="frown.gif" border="0">
"British Airways Cuts 5,800 More Jobs.
The total of 13,000 job cuts will include 400 pilots, 3,400 cabin crew, 800 customer services staff at Heathrow, 550 customer services staff at Gatwick, 1,500 engineers, 2,600 world sales staff and 800 cargo employees.
There will also be 2,950 others, mainly among head office and support staff.
About 6,600 of the jobs will be cut from Heathrow, 3,000 from Gatwick, 1,200 from regional bases in the UK, and 2,200 will go overseas."
ARGGGHHHHH, time to sit tight and be thankful I've got a job.
My sympathies to all those affected, even Shorty's Gonnabe, possibly hasbeen lady.
WWW, Scroggs, any idea how long this will set things back by, or is that a bloody stupid question?!!! And to think you guys were being branded as doomsayers a couple of months ago.
<img src="frown.gif" border="0">
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Yes, This may well damp down my long held optimism.
Lets wait for the dust to settle and see what the true fall out is at the end of the day, before rushing in with too many view.
PS
[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]</p>
Lets wait for the dust to settle and see what the true fall out is at the end of the day, before rushing in with too many view.
PS
[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Polar_stereographic ]</p>
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I agree Polar,
Before we all collectively top ourselves there are little questions to be answered like: how many pilots, how many early pilot retirements, how much of the domestic network is in fact to be re-deployed or just plain taken over (as opposed to shut down) by subsidiaries like Brymon & CityFlyer. These hard facts will not emerge for weeks I suspect. Everything else will of course be just good old speculation. Sure don't we all thrive on that anyway?
Before we all collectively top ourselves there are little questions to be answered like: how many pilots, how many early pilot retirements, how much of the domestic network is in fact to be re-deployed or just plain taken over (as opposed to shut down) by subsidiaries like Brymon & CityFlyer. These hard facts will not emerge for weeks I suspect. Everything else will of course be just good old speculation. Sure don't we all thrive on that anyway?
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You are right, reactions to this news may be based on speculation, however the figures quoted above are NOT speculation.
Yes some of the FOUR HUNDRED pilot's jobs may be shed through early retirement, however we were hoping all those retirements might ease the strain on the CURRENT unemployment situation.
BA are also planning to cut 10 unannounced routes, I hope you're right and that someone with lower overheads will step in and try and make these routes profitable.
I'm trying not to be too pessimistic, and this development has only set my plans back a while, not cancelled them; however the quote from Bill Morris pretty much sums it up:
"We expected mild surgery, what we got is savage butchery."
Yes some of the FOUR HUNDRED pilot's jobs may be shed through early retirement, however we were hoping all those retirements might ease the strain on the CURRENT unemployment situation.
BA are also planning to cut 10 unannounced routes, I hope you're right and that someone with lower overheads will step in and try and make these routes profitable.
I'm trying not to be too pessimistic, and this development has only set my plans back a while, not cancelled them; however the quote from Bill Morris pretty much sums it up:
"We expected mild surgery, what we got is savage butchery."
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Shanks. .thank you for posting those figures. If you look at them carefully, you'll see that they're nowhere near as bad as we'd feared. Today's announcement was a further 5800 job cuts; your figures are for the entire 13,000 cut since September 11th (and not due to have fully taken effect until 2004). The 400 pilot job losses were part of the original 7200, and have already largely been achieved.. .Look carefully at the others, and you will discover that today's extra job losses are in support (admin and engineering) rather than operations. While I feel sorry for those affected, this is a long-overdue adjustment in one of the world's most over-manned companies, and will positively affect the company's bottom line - if it's done well! And the timescale suggested leaves plenty of scope for these job cuts to be achieved by natural wastage and early retirement.. .The 10 routes to be cut have yet to be announced, and the 50 aircraft 'to be withdrawn' is only relative to Summer 2001 - most have already gone. The short-haul fleet changes will upset many of those comfortable with their current bases, but the vast majority will still have a job!. .As for the implications for Wannabes, I suspect that the resumption of CEP recruiting is no further away than it was yesterday. What it was then, I have no idea really! But I have said before now that I believed that BA would look this spring for expressions of interest in courses to start next year. They can't reasonably start looking for new people in the current circumstances, but I still believe that they will want to resume training in 2003 to avoid being dependent on the experienced aircrew pool which may or may not be there when they need more people - the main reason for their recruiting policy before 9/11.. .Let's now hope that BA has done enough to stop the rot. I, for one, am not convinced - I think that restructuring in short-haul will have to go further. But I hope that they've given themselves a bit of breathing space to think that through.. .As a footnote, Virgin today announced the resumption of a small number of routes, so it ain't all bad news!
The big question is whether or not the aircraft and 400 pilots in todays statement are new or largely the same as were announced last year. I think they are actually the old numbers and BALPA was confident that the 400 figure would be achieved by the end of this year anyway without the need for redundancy. Fewer aircraft but higher utilisation might mean a fairly minimal impact for flightdeck requirement anyway.
It is tempting to grab at the straw that is early retirement. Indeed many pilots have bailed out early in the last 6 months. There is also the natural retirement that will occur over the next year.
However I do not think it will be particularly significant. Those that were tempted by pension crytalisation and early retirement have probably all gone. Many of those of course are the ones one would expect to retire 'naturally' in the coming year or two. I therefore think the retirement bulge is somewhat deflated for the next year already.
In addition one has to remember that a 55 (or indeed 52, 53, 54) year old BA retired Skipper does not necessarily toddle off to the South of France to perfect his Golf handicap. A large proportion stay in aviation as contract pilots or indeed as full time flightcrew in smaller airlines. Often with 30 years quality flying under their belt and perhaps TRE/TRI quals they can bring a LOT to smaller outfits. And good luck to them, if they still love the jobb enough to stay on then why not. Not forgetting the significant number who want to increase the yacht from 30ft to 42ft, or, perhaps more likely, have 3 ex-wives to fund
For Joe Wannabe therefore the BA retirees just slow down recruitment in other potential employers.
If BA actually do issue pilots with P45's a Rubicon will have been crossed. Its never happened before and many said it could never happen. Lots of people have gone to BA for this very reason citing a job for life and great pension even at the expense of immediate pay and seniority.
What is certain is that the whole industry is in turmoil. Only an hour ago an ex-student called me to say they had just been offered a 737 charter job with only 500hrs. Virgin are seemingly calling in pilots from days off because they are short and you can't get a discounted holiday on the high street for love nor money. The Low Costs continue to recruit strongly.
I am sure there is a team of aviation industry analysts at JP Morgan who know whats going on but I'm baffled if I do!
Todays announcement though can only meen one thing. To some unknown extent things just got even worse for low time newly graduated job seekers. This BA contraction is going to at best stagnate the entire UK hiring market as ex-BA experienced crews become available. If only they had issued a statement about selling Waterside, buying new aircraft and making an iron rule that they would never have more staff per aircraft than Lufthansa.
My sincere condolonces to any Speedbird who looses their position - they really are not all the total Nigels that many enjoy portraying them as. As for Feng Shui consultants at Waterside - lets see 'em swinging from the lamposts.
WWW
[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</p>
It is tempting to grab at the straw that is early retirement. Indeed many pilots have bailed out early in the last 6 months. There is also the natural retirement that will occur over the next year.
However I do not think it will be particularly significant. Those that were tempted by pension crytalisation and early retirement have probably all gone. Many of those of course are the ones one would expect to retire 'naturally' in the coming year or two. I therefore think the retirement bulge is somewhat deflated for the next year already.
In addition one has to remember that a 55 (or indeed 52, 53, 54) year old BA retired Skipper does not necessarily toddle off to the South of France to perfect his Golf handicap. A large proportion stay in aviation as contract pilots or indeed as full time flightcrew in smaller airlines. Often with 30 years quality flying under their belt and perhaps TRE/TRI quals they can bring a LOT to smaller outfits. And good luck to them, if they still love the jobb enough to stay on then why not. Not forgetting the significant number who want to increase the yacht from 30ft to 42ft, or, perhaps more likely, have 3 ex-wives to fund
For Joe Wannabe therefore the BA retirees just slow down recruitment in other potential employers.
If BA actually do issue pilots with P45's a Rubicon will have been crossed. Its never happened before and many said it could never happen. Lots of people have gone to BA for this very reason citing a job for life and great pension even at the expense of immediate pay and seniority.
What is certain is that the whole industry is in turmoil. Only an hour ago an ex-student called me to say they had just been offered a 737 charter job with only 500hrs. Virgin are seemingly calling in pilots from days off because they are short and you can't get a discounted holiday on the high street for love nor money. The Low Costs continue to recruit strongly.
I am sure there is a team of aviation industry analysts at JP Morgan who know whats going on but I'm baffled if I do!
Todays announcement though can only meen one thing. To some unknown extent things just got even worse for low time newly graduated job seekers. This BA contraction is going to at best stagnate the entire UK hiring market as ex-BA experienced crews become available. If only they had issued a statement about selling Waterside, buying new aircraft and making an iron rule that they would never have more staff per aircraft than Lufthansa.
My sincere condolonces to any Speedbird who looses their position - they really are not all the total Nigels that many enjoy portraying them as. As for Feng Shui consultants at Waterside - lets see 'em swinging from the lamposts.
WWW
[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]</p>
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WWW
The analyists at JPMorgan are paid a lot to sound like they know what is happening - they may even convince some people. I've got a friend with just that job, albeit with a different investment bank, and if she is honest (or drunk) then she'll admit that nobody really knows.... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
The analyists at JPMorgan are paid a lot to sound like they know what is happening - they may even convince some people. I've got a friend with just that job, albeit with a different investment bank, and if she is honest (or drunk) then she'll admit that nobody really knows.... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
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Currently half way through a 5 year retirement bulge which is seeing approx 200 pilots a year going. Some ARE taking the money and running, others as WWW said are going to the low costs on cushy deals. I know one 55year old 737 capt who retired from BA one day and next day went to easy with a fat golden hello and a part time training captain deal.
Also don't forget that after retirement bulges happen you get years of seniority stagnation.
So sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but those of us with our foot in the door need those retirees to go just so we can keep our jobs.
Also don't forget that after retirement bulges happen you get years of seniority stagnation.
So sorry to be the bringer of bad news, but those of us with our foot in the door need those retirees to go just so we can keep our jobs.
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Chirpy pilot,
well done on the BA job, i think you were on my course at Oxford.
About the 'gonnabe/wannabe' lady - if it's who I'm thinking of she has feet that can fit in her mouth, and she puts them there quite often. She once told me that all salespeople are leeches on the face of their customers. Well you can probably guess what my last pre-BA job was...
Once again - well done
well done on the BA job, i think you were on my course at Oxford.
About the 'gonnabe/wannabe' lady - if it's who I'm thinking of she has feet that can fit in her mouth, and she puts them there quite often. She once told me that all salespeople are leeches on the face of their customers. Well you can probably guess what my last pre-BA job was...
Once again - well done