The end of JAA PPL's in the U.S. A ???
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WWW said:
theRolfe - thanks for your inputs here on your single issue stance
of defending US training of EU nationals.
WWW: You are undoubtably a smart guy. You are undoubtably good at what you do.
Which is why I don't understand how someone who works for one of those 'new' airlines -
the ones that plan on making money rather than flying a national flag - can be in favour of
*any* form of protectionism.
"Go" wouldn't exist if it wan't for liberalisation of the EU air market.
You have stated that you are in favour of protectionism when it comes to flight training outside the JAA 'economic area'.
You have stated that US schools 'nick' students from UK ones.
You have repetedly stated that this should be 'stamped out'.
Be very careful what you wish for. Once the protectionist genie is let out of the bottle
there is no stopping it. Suppose the
JAA manages to 'stamp out' foreign training. Or even FAA training of 'EU nationals',
which is the phrase you used! Then what? The US might decide
to impose tariffs on Airbus Industries. You can't erect barriers against people and expect them
to sit there and do nothing. That's why I don't think I'm harping on about a 'single issue' here
- if we go along with your line of reasoning I
can see a return to the 1970's with everybody
deciding that different bits of aviation are 'core national interests' that are 'strategic' and
need to be 'defended' from 'unfair' foreign competition. Your yourself have said that flight training is a
'strategic asset for UK PLC'
which implies that training in Spain is unacceptable.
If and when the EU gets its own pointless GPS system up and running - it's been refered to
as the "Common Agricultural Policy in space" -
all the protecionists will no doubt insist that US
GPS receivers will be prohibited on JAA aircraft. Will you agree with them? If you don't you'd be
a hypocrite for only being in favour of protectionism when it directly affects your
job. If you do then you're saying that perfectly good equipment should be
thrown away because it doesn't have 'made in EU' stamped on it.
You also have an amazing amount of faith in the JAA! As far as I can tell it lacks real political power of it's own
and is a bit like the commonwealth - everybody shows up, meets,
gives lip service to the need to stand together and them goes back to doing exactly what they
were doing before complete with national exceptions and predjudices. What makes you think they can pull this off?
Please answer as I'm genuninly curious...
theRolfe
PS - I know somebody who heard from somebody else that "Go" aren't very good.
When you get back from Naples can you give me a free flight?
theRolfe - thanks for your inputs here on your single issue stance
of defending US training of EU nationals.
WWW: You are undoubtably a smart guy. You are undoubtably good at what you do.
Which is why I don't understand how someone who works for one of those 'new' airlines -
the ones that plan on making money rather than flying a national flag - can be in favour of
*any* form of protectionism.
"Go" wouldn't exist if it wan't for liberalisation of the EU air market.
You have stated that you are in favour of protectionism when it comes to flight training outside the JAA 'economic area'.
You have stated that US schools 'nick' students from UK ones.
You have repetedly stated that this should be 'stamped out'.
Be very careful what you wish for. Once the protectionist genie is let out of the bottle
there is no stopping it. Suppose the
JAA manages to 'stamp out' foreign training. Or even FAA training of 'EU nationals',
which is the phrase you used! Then what? The US might decide
to impose tariffs on Airbus Industries. You can't erect barriers against people and expect them
to sit there and do nothing. That's why I don't think I'm harping on about a 'single issue' here
- if we go along with your line of reasoning I
can see a return to the 1970's with everybody
deciding that different bits of aviation are 'core national interests' that are 'strategic' and
need to be 'defended' from 'unfair' foreign competition. Your yourself have said that flight training is a
'strategic asset for UK PLC'
which implies that training in Spain is unacceptable.
If and when the EU gets its own pointless GPS system up and running - it's been refered to
as the "Common Agricultural Policy in space" -
all the protecionists will no doubt insist that US
GPS receivers will be prohibited on JAA aircraft. Will you agree with them? If you don't you'd be
a hypocrite for only being in favour of protectionism when it directly affects your
job. If you do then you're saying that perfectly good equipment should be
thrown away because it doesn't have 'made in EU' stamped on it.
You also have an amazing amount of faith in the JAA! As far as I can tell it lacks real political power of it's own
and is a bit like the commonwealth - everybody shows up, meets,
gives lip service to the need to stand together and them goes back to doing exactly what they
were doing before complete with national exceptions and predjudices. What makes you think they can pull this off?
Please answer as I'm genuninly curious...
theRolfe
PS - I know somebody who heard from somebody else that "Go" aren't very good.
When you get back from Naples can you give me a free flight?
Last edited by theRolfe2; 1st Apr 2002 at 16:16.
Your post is ridduled with holes. I am off to bed now. I will reply in 24hrs.
WWW
WWW
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Well Richard old son, that has got to be one of the smartest marketing moves ever!!!
One thing about good old WWW is that he is consistent!
If he’s flown there, been taught there, taught there or worked there, it will become the best thing since sliced bread.
Just kidding Weasley, honest!!.... You and Miss Welshlady will love it!
One thing about good old WWW is that he is consistent!
If he’s flown there, been taught there, taught there or worked there, it will become the best thing since sliced bread.
Just kidding Weasley, honest!!.... You and Miss Welshlady will love it!
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Your post is ridduled with holes. I am off to bed now. I will reply in 24hrs.
WWW
I'll await your reply with baited breath!
Actually..no...I won't.
You and I are not going to agree on this - you think flight training is a core national interest which need to be protected and I believe that the needs of consumers are more important than the needs of flight instructors. There is no middle ground on this one so we're just going to have to agree to disagree. We both have better things to do with our time than waste it trying to change each others minds or win points in a situation like this.
So I'm not really interested in why you think my post is 'riddled' with holes any more than you are interested in my views on the infectious nature of protectionism. The other thing is that I have to plan a xctry for tomorrow night and this is a needless distraction.
theRolfe
WWW
I'll await your reply with baited breath!
Actually..no...I won't.
You and I are not going to agree on this - you think flight training is a core national interest which need to be protected and I believe that the needs of consumers are more important than the needs of flight instructors. There is no middle ground on this one so we're just going to have to agree to disagree. We both have better things to do with our time than waste it trying to change each others minds or win points in a situation like this.
So I'm not really interested in why you think my post is 'riddled' with holes any more than you are interested in my views on the infectious nature of protectionism. The other thing is that I have to plan a xctry for tomorrow night and this is a needless distraction.
theRolfe
Last edited by theRolfe2; 1st Apr 2002 at 21:29.
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WARNING: ADVICE FOR SALE
Hilarious exposure of Celtic selective memory moderation.
Anyone remember WWW working at Welshpool and recommending training in UK? Then, when working for Bae Jerez, the advice modified to training in Europe. After a freebie, could it moderate to flying in Florida?
Hilarious exposure of Celtic selective memory moderation.
Anyone remember WWW working at Welshpool and recommending training in UK? Then, when working for Bae Jerez, the advice modified to training in Europe. After a freebie, could it moderate to flying in Florida?
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to say that flight training of uk students in america ahould be banned (WWW) is missing the point -how many hard working instructors in the USA thoroughly enjoy their time out in the states teaching and building experience of a superb system and learning valuable lessons and then return to the UK to apply for jobs with airlines there.Give the people the credit they deserve.
If only your beloved CAA would give them that credit when they return home by recognising their ICAO license and asking nothing more than a check flight of them for conversion like virtually every other country.
If only your beloved CAA would give them that credit when they return home by recognising their ICAO license and asking nothing more than a check flight of them for conversion like virtually every other country.
Flies for fun
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Is WWW about to discover that there is life beyond the Nissan hut in the middle of a waterlogged valley loosely described as an airfield? Will he cope with the shock of being able to obtain an IFR flight clearance from a GA airfield? Will he be able to convince himself that Naples is reality and not a dream?
Don't forget to go to the local flight standards office to get your free licence conversion before you fly WWW and remember that you can then dial freephone 1-800-WX-BRIEF to talk to a friendly flight briefer who will discuss the en route weather you can expect during your proposed flight. He/she will also give you Pilot Reports and Notams all without charge all from the comfort of the modern well equipped flight centre. Can you believe that? Yes, you can request the tower to give you class Charley services/VFR flight following before you take off too!
Ask for a tower visit WWW and see how a modern tower operates.
WWW you just won't want to give that airplane back to Richard!! If you do hang on to it, Cedar key and Marathon are places to go for daytrips and take a look at the warbird museum at Kissimee.
Happy flying!
Don't forget to go to the local flight standards office to get your free licence conversion before you fly WWW and remember that you can then dial freephone 1-800-WX-BRIEF to talk to a friendly flight briefer who will discuss the en route weather you can expect during your proposed flight. He/she will also give you Pilot Reports and Notams all without charge all from the comfort of the modern well equipped flight centre. Can you believe that? Yes, you can request the tower to give you class Charley services/VFR flight following before you take off too!
Ask for a tower visit WWW and see how a modern tower operates.
WWW you just won't want to give that airplane back to Richard!! If you do hang on to it, Cedar key and Marathon are places to go for daytrips and take a look at the warbird museum at Kissimee.
Happy flying!
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..and of course not forgetting that the FAA will issue you a nice shiny FAA IR, and all you have to do is show them your superb JAA one, and take a simple computer written exam, for a grand cost of around $75. Then, why not get a 'tower en-route' into LAX or IFR into Miami, with a taxi back, while picking up your new clearance to go somewhere else (because you can), the grand cost of all of this....just the flight time....
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I think that a few important points have been missed.
1. We had a US based flight instructor who teaches JAR saying how great it was that they were going to get grandfather rights from the CAA. This ver same instructor then turned around and asked what was the difference between an RTF and an FTO. This is basic JAR knowledge required for the PPL and how can we trust instructors who don't know the system themselves.
2. The old requirement to build hours post PPL has all but gone with the JAR 200 hour CPL. If one works it out then to fit all the training in leaves very little hour building time especially if a FI course is completed. After the 200 hour mark, there may well be a requirement but you now have a "professional pilot" hour building and most likely doing it as an instructor.
3. Under the old system, a UK licence holder was limited to UK airspace in an N registered aircraft unless they held a US licence. Now that JAR is here, a JAR licence holder is restricted to the JAR countries in the same situation leaving most of Europe available.
Training in the US is fine. However to operate within the FARs, certain differences exist. Even if they are good, they are differences. Therefore, I am of the opinion that after completing JAR training in the USA, students should be required to complete differences training before operating in Europe. Operating in unfamiliar airspace can be as much of a danger than operating an unfamiliar aircraft. Exemptions to such a requirement for students with certain previous experience of European operations.
DFC
1. We had a US based flight instructor who teaches JAR saying how great it was that they were going to get grandfather rights from the CAA. This ver same instructor then turned around and asked what was the difference between an RTF and an FTO. This is basic JAR knowledge required for the PPL and how can we trust instructors who don't know the system themselves.
2. The old requirement to build hours post PPL has all but gone with the JAR 200 hour CPL. If one works it out then to fit all the training in leaves very little hour building time especially if a FI course is completed. After the 200 hour mark, there may well be a requirement but you now have a "professional pilot" hour building and most likely doing it as an instructor.
3. Under the old system, a UK licence holder was limited to UK airspace in an N registered aircraft unless they held a US licence. Now that JAR is here, a JAR licence holder is restricted to the JAR countries in the same situation leaving most of Europe available.
Training in the US is fine. However to operate within the FARs, certain differences exist. Even if they are good, they are differences. Therefore, I am of the opinion that after completing JAR training in the USA, students should be required to complete differences training before operating in Europe. Operating in unfamiliar airspace can be as much of a danger than operating an unfamiliar aircraft. Exemptions to such a requirement for students with certain previous experience of European operations.
DFC
I've recommended plenty of schools in my time - many that I know only by reputation.
I have also publicly and privately advised people to consider the PPL + hours in the USA. Many times over many years. IF circumstances suit their personal situation.
So lets lay off the - amusing - but thread wandering game of painting me as some jingoistic idiot. It obviously is not true.
This thread is about the UK CAA and how it approves training. I believe it should stop encouraging JAA pilots to train outside of JAA states. All other JAA member states agree with me. The changes will happen in the next couple of years of that I am confident.
Safe flying one and all,
WWW
I have also publicly and privately advised people to consider the PPL + hours in the USA. Many times over many years. IF circumstances suit their personal situation.
So lets lay off the - amusing - but thread wandering game of painting me as some jingoistic idiot. It obviously is not true.
This thread is about the UK CAA and how it approves training. I believe it should stop encouraging JAA pilots to train outside of JAA states. All other JAA member states agree with me. The changes will happen in the next couple of years of that I am confident.
Safe flying one and all,
WWW
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I believe it should stop encouraging JAA pilots to train outside of JAA states. All other JAA member states agree with me. The changes will happen in the next couple of years of that I am confident.
Rgds
Englishal, the cost of gaining a JAA CPL/IR Frzn ATPL is now considerably cheaper than it was only five years ago if one compares the integrated vs CAP509 route.
The NPPL will keep non-professional pleasure flying training affordable. Indeed the growth of ultra and microlight flying is most encouraging.
For those who are flying in order to gain a JAA license allowing them ultimately to be paid to fly JAA aircraft I believe they should follow a JAA syllabus in a JAA member state.
Its not as if the US even has the cheapest flight training in the world. Why don't you go to Poland and get a Polish PPL. It will cost about £1,000. Ahh, the UK CAA does not have an automatic conversion system in place for Polish licenses! So why do the North Americans have one?
WWW
The NPPL will keep non-professional pleasure flying training affordable. Indeed the growth of ultra and microlight flying is most encouraging.
For those who are flying in order to gain a JAA license allowing them ultimately to be paid to fly JAA aircraft I believe they should follow a JAA syllabus in a JAA member state.
Its not as if the US even has the cheapest flight training in the world. Why don't you go to Poland and get a Polish PPL. It will cost about £1,000. Ahh, the UK CAA does not have an automatic conversion system in place for Polish licenses! So why do the North Americans have one?
WWW
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Hmm...interesting thread.
WWW,if you were only just to hop across the pond and experiance the US aviation scene you`d understand,its such a great country for flying,everything is geared up for aviation,alot of people do go flying and enjoy themselves at weekends in their own planes,it is a big country,has everything you`d need,open spaces..and if you want busy,you can go do a touch and go at a large airport if you please..for no cost whatsoever.
I think most importantly for students its very relaxed,not alot of stress involved,which really helps out alot in your first few hours.
Not to start a flame war..but from my impressions..the CAA and JAA aren`t really a touch on the FAA..the FAA promote aviation,the CAA and JAA seems to act like they have been lumbered with it,don`t care,not really in touch with the pilots,only politicians and bank accounts.
WWW,if you were only just to hop across the pond and experiance the US aviation scene you`d understand,its such a great country for flying,everything is geared up for aviation,alot of people do go flying and enjoy themselves at weekends in their own planes,it is a big country,has everything you`d need,open spaces..and if you want busy,you can go do a touch and go at a large airport if you please..for no cost whatsoever.
I think most importantly for students its very relaxed,not alot of stress involved,which really helps out alot in your first few hours.
Not to start a flame war..but from my impressions..the CAA and JAA aren`t really a touch on the FAA..the FAA promote aviation,the CAA and JAA seems to act like they have been lumbered with it,don`t care,not really in touch with the pilots,only politicians and bank accounts.
I do understand. Its just that its got nothing to do with JAA training regulatory policy.
WWW
WWW
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Its interesting to see the OAT ad on PPrune which states that OAT has now been granted approval to carry out its flight training in the US.....Pay £60,000ish AND train in the US ! Does this mean that OAT are a second rate training orginisation??
How dare they not support the ailing UK aviation industry !
EA
How dare they not support the ailing UK aviation industry !
EA
we have pleasure announcing that the OAT Training Centre in Tyler Texas USA has been awarded full JAA approval by the UK CAA to conduct flight and ground training for:
JAR-FCL 1 Integrated Training
JAR-FCL 1 CPL (A) Modular Training
JAR-FCL 1 PPL (A) Training
JAR-FCL 1 Integrated Training
JAR-FCL 1 CPL (A) Modular Training
JAR-FCL 1 PPL (A) Training
Last edited by englishal; 3rd Apr 2002 at 11:47.
Indeed. All OATS flying instructors have been given notice that they may soon be redundant at Kiddlington.
Flying careers are being exported to the USA because for historical reasons the British CAA have allowed US training to count towards or be approved for license issue.
If OATS move your job to Tyler and then the Feds won't give you any more than a two year Green card then thats your career as a professional flying instructor with OATS down the toilet.
If BAe move your job from Prestwick to Jerez (as they did) then you can hop on the next flight to Spain and relocate without filling in a form and continue your career.
The Spanish will even recognise your JAA CPL IR and FI ratings so you can fly their ES registered aircraft and teach Spaniards for PPL's on the side if you like.
THATS a very good illustration of the issue involved.
Its about trading blocs, employment regulations and training validity. Not mindless Yank bashing
WWW
Flying careers are being exported to the USA because for historical reasons the British CAA have allowed US training to count towards or be approved for license issue.
If OATS move your job to Tyler and then the Feds won't give you any more than a two year Green card then thats your career as a professional flying instructor with OATS down the toilet.
If BAe move your job from Prestwick to Jerez (as they did) then you can hop on the next flight to Spain and relocate without filling in a form and continue your career.
The Spanish will even recognise your JAA CPL IR and FI ratings so you can fly their ES registered aircraft and teach Spaniards for PPL's on the side if you like.
THATS a very good illustration of the issue involved.
Its about trading blocs, employment regulations and training validity. Not mindless Yank bashing
WWW
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According to the nice lady at the CAA, OATS do not have approval for the CPL modular course at Tyler, in fact up until last week they hadn't even applied for it. It seems that OATS Marketing have this continuing difficulty with the truth, as so many of their customers have discovered.
Caveat Emptor
Caveat Emptor
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StephenRED's signature:
<<"Lower the standard to which our standards are set and everyone will reach greater standards.">>
That indeed is a very worrying statement, I do hope you are not an instructor of any persuasion...
<<"Lower the standard to which our standards are set and everyone will reach greater standards.">>
That indeed is a very worrying statement, I do hope you are not an instructor of any persuasion...
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Meeb:
I hope what he meant was to lower the mindless expansion of rules and goofy pseudo scientific garbage that is now part of the training process.
That would indeed improve pilot training.
Mind control is a very interesting thing, tell something often enough and it becomes the norm.
Your bureaucrats have suceeded in doing this admirably one need only note the slavish manner in which some instructors embrace some of this garbage.
Cat Driver
....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
I hope what he meant was to lower the mindless expansion of rules and goofy pseudo scientific garbage that is now part of the training process.
That would indeed improve pilot training.
Mind control is a very interesting thing, tell something often enough and it becomes the norm.
Your bureaucrats have suceeded in doing this admirably one need only note the slavish manner in which some instructors embrace some of this garbage.
Cat Driver
....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.