The end of JAA PPL's in the U.S. A ???

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

Sensible,. .. .To convert an FAA PPL into a JAA PPL you need.. .. .Pilots with an FAA PPL and less than 100TT:. .. .7 Writtens and a Skill Test. .. .Pilots with an FAA PPL and over 100TT: . .. .2 Writtens and a Skill Test . .(Air Law & HPL). .. .Hope this Helps,. .. .Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.. .Naples Air Center, Inc.

[BEagle]

Thanks Richard - I didn't have time to confirm that this morning!. .. .One should perhaps add that with 100 hr TT, the JAR/FCL PPL Skill Test shouldn't present any difficulty to a FAA PPL holder, HP&L wouldn't be difficult at all, Air Law would be a bit of a bore but fairly straightforward!. .. .So perhaps the way ahead is to concentrate on FAA PPLs in the US and JAR/FCL PPLs in Euroland? Until, that is, true licensing reciprocity is achieved>

[GoneWest]

Richard...THREE writtens...R/T written (but not, necessarily, practical).

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

GoneWest,. .. .Please break down all the scenarios.. .. .Thanx,. .. .Richard

[Capt.Emerald]

After reviewing the information I gathered from this thread I became encouraged and went to my boss with the news and proposal to do FAA PPL's then convert them to JAA PPL's. He quickly burst my bubble and pointed me in the direction of the general information document #21 from the CAA web site: <a href="http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_gid21.pdf" target="_blank">CAA web page</a> . .. .I read the document and become confused, then he explained to me what it stated. With an ICAO PPL and 100 hrs. of flight time in aeroplanes the conversion could be completed by a approved flight training organization with only the airlaw, human performance, radio telephony written exams, and a skill test. With out the 100 hrs. of flight time the applicant would have to do all the written exams, the 25 hrs. of dual instruction with an approved JAA/JAR instructor and skill test. So it looks like a U.S. JAA PPL will either be done at an approved JAR/FCL school or it will be a 100 hr JAA PPL or 65 hr PPL IE: 40 hr FAA PPL with 25 hrs. of instruction with a JAA instructor = 65 hrs. There are 2 sections in GID #21, one being credits from flight training the other credits for ground examinations. Looks like I still need to find a job on March 31st.

[rolling circle]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> So it looks like a U.S. JAA PPL will either be done at an approved JAR/FCL school or it will be a 100 hr JAA PPL or 65 hr PPL IE: 40 hr FAA PPL with 25 hrs. of instruction with a JAA instructor = 65 hrs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Yup, sure does. Of course there's always the normal 45 hour route via a Registered Facility within a JAA Member State, and with interest being shown in JAA membership by a number of South American states, South Africa and Singapore, you never know...

[Sensible]

Thanks for that explanation Richard. So, in reality a Brit can go to the USA, get an FAA PPL and then do a small amount of hour building to 100 hours and can then come back over to the UK and convert to a JAA license taking only HPL, Air Law and the RT exam! I can't see that that is a real problem to a serious pilot. Still seems a route far more preferable and less time consuming than waiting for the weather in the UK and in any event, the extra hour building would be very beneficial to a low hours pilot. . .. .I note that Capt.Emerald assisted by Rolling Circle has introduced an additional requirement of 25 hrs. of instruction with a JAA instructor !!!????? Is this true?

[Naples Air Center, Inc.]

There seems to be some confusion as to exactly what GID No 21 says. According to Version 05 (10/12/01):. .. .PART 2 FLYING TRAINING/EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS. .. .Credits from Flying Training . .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Any previous flying experience in single engine-piston (Land) aeroplanes gained during incompleted PPL(A) courses may be counted towards the 45 hour minima required for the grant of a JAR-FCL PPL(A), however the specific requirements under JAR-FCL (25 hours dual instruction and 10 hours supervised solo-flight. .time) must be completed in the state under whose authority the training and testing are carried out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> The holder of a current and valid PPL(A) issued by an ICAO Contracting State (not being a JAA Member State), who has flown a minimum of 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, is credited the flying requirements, except the PPL(A) Skill Test. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">PART 3 THEORETICAL KNOWLEDGE EXAMINATION REQUIREMENTS. .. .Credits from Ground Examinations . .. . </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> The holder of a current and valid PPL(A) issued by an ICAO Contracting State (not being a JAA Member State), who has flown a minimum of 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, is credited the examinations in Navigation & Radio Aids, Meteorology, Aircraft (General) & Principles of Flight and Flight Performance & Planning. (If no aeroplane rating has been held in the 5 years preceding application, then all JAR theoretical knowledge exams would need to be passed. If no aeroplane rating has been held for a period exceeding 5 years preceding application, an assessment of your flying experience will be required).. .. .The holder of a current and valid PPL(A) issued by an ICAO Contracting State (not being a JAA Member State), who has flown less than the minimum of 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, will be required to pass all JAR theoretical knowledge examinations. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Where people are getting confused is on the first paragraph I quoted. Please note it only applies to "incompleted PPL(A) courses". At that point you can return and have your time count, but you need to meet the requirement of "(25 hours dual instruction and 10 hours supervised solo-flight time)" as per the JAR-FCL. Furthermore the 25 Dual and 10 Solo "must be completed in the state under whose authority the training and testing are carried out.". .. .Hope that clears the issue,. .. .Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.. .Naples Air Center, Inc.

[BEagle]

Sensible - yes, 100% correct. That was confirmed to me today by the CAA! FAA PPL + 100 hrs TT + 3 exams + JAR Skill Test would get you a JAR/FCL PPL. You could also get your 100 TT in the UK on your FAA licence under Day VFR, of course.. .. .But would it be cheaper than doing the training in the UK or another JAA member state in the first place? I don't know - but your hours-building would probably be easier with an FAA licence in the US!. . . . <small>[ 22 March 2002, 23:23: Message edited by: BEagle ]</small>

[GoneWest]

Richard - there are no multiple scenarios to post.. .. .All I was saying (Give Peace A Chance??....No!!)...was that candidate has to pass written exam for R/T (as well as Air Law and Human Remains) but not, necessarily, the R/T practical test.. .. .I also remember reading - on the CAA site - that an ICAO PPL with less than 100 hours can convert to JAA PPL if they pass ALL SEVEN writtens and a skill test.. .. .So brand new FAA PPL is O.K.!! However, "Temporary Airmans Certificate" is not valid for JAA licence application - it has to be the real thing (which, as an aside, is issued much quicker now than it was last year).

[Sensible]

Thanks for the clarification BEagle. What is easy for you professional guys is often so confusing for mere mortals like myself! . .. .Richard, how does the new rules affect training at such places as Naples Air Centre? presumably students can only train for the FAA licence and hour build on either an FAA or JAA licence. . .. .Is it likely that there will be any changes in the future which will enaable pilots to train at Naples for the JAA licence?

[DesiPilot]

Sensible,. .. .The only way a school can conduct a JAA PPL is if their instructors have undergone the required training. The problem is the high turnover of instructors. If we were to hire someone with JAA FI rating, they would be required to convert to FAA ratings before they can teach. . .The way JAA and now EASA has been changing rules I wont be surprised if the rules change again. It is a big gamble and seems like all the FTO's and registered facilities in the USA are willing to take it. . .I specifically asked the same question whilst CAA inspector was visiting us (Britannia). He also mentioned that we can train for FAA PPL, have the students take all the seven written exams and take the JAA skill test with JAA examiner. It is perfectly legal, and as mentioned earlier in my post the student will walk away with two unrestricted licenses. The main question is how feasible it is to do two licenses? Given the time period of three weeks, if students do not do pre-course studies, it will be almost impossible to do the two license in three weeks period.. .As quoted by Richard, Beagle and others if you are a holder of ICAO license, and have less then 100 hours, you will be required to take all written exams and flight test. One thing everyone seemed to miss is that CAA will not accept the Temporary Airmen Certificate for converion. So the student will have to wait until he/she receives original issuence by FAA.. .I hope this clarifies.

[BEagle]

Another point is that the ICAO licence must be current for the 100hrs TT route to be available. So the FAA PPL holder wishing to convert to a JAR/FCL PPL by achieving 100TT and sitting 2 exams plus a RT exam would need to do so within 2 years of FAA PPL issue or find someone to conduct a Biennial Flight Review! 2 years and 1 day = invalid licence = no conversion, it would seem.

[Meeb]

The idea of students doing a FAA PPL and then undertaking the writtens and skill test to achieve a JAR PPL is a non-starter as the school would still have to be approved for the examiner to conduct the tests, so they may as well train from the start for the JAR licence. The student could of course do the exams on return to the UK, but cost wise I doubt there would be much overall saving. I believe overseas JAR training is entering a new phase, where there will be a handful of USA schools who will gain a good reputation for playing by the rules, and certain others will just fade away... hopefully!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Meeb:. .. .You have aroused my curiosity, what exactly do you mean by "play by the rules".. .. .When comparing the training standards around the world and the rules, I doubt anyone even understands what "the rules" are. One thing I am sure of the JAR - JAR, fiasco is driving you people out of aviation.. .. .Mind you I am not suggesting you are to blame, however I wouldn't get to concerned about "the rules" if they are counter productive to aviation.. .. .Just my take on it.. .. .May I add I feel sorry for what JAA - JAR is doing to you and your Country.. .. .................. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[DesiPilot]

Meeb,. .. .The schools could still be approved but unable to do the JAA flight training as the Flight instructor conducting the training must have completed half the FI(r) course and taken a flight test with an FIE. The sad thing is that they do not receive any rating for it, just paper work confirming that they have done the test.. .. .I am sure the schools or the instructors will spend the money towards the instructors training. One thing to note here is that the cost of flight training will go up in USA. Also the fact that no one knows how long will this rule last?. .. .I agree that not many schools in USA will not comply with this rule, may be just to keep the cost of PPL down. But do you think that the UK school's will be able to catre to all the students? and I am not talking about infrastructure, I am talking about the lovely British weather!!!

[GoneWest]

...and, Meeb, I am told that the school needs only to be approved (registered) to hold the written papers for the ground examinations.. .. .If "Bloggs" goes to local UK flight school, passes all seven written exams, goes to america, does full FAA licence, then sits skill test with any JAA Flight Examiner (at any U.S. school - approved or not) they will receive full JAA licence....as well as full FAA licence.. .. .Sounds confusing - but still slightly cheaper and still MUCH QUICKER for those who (unfortunately) think the course should be finished in three to four weeks.

[BEagle]

Perhaps. But 'Bloggs' would have to join the local flying club, attend groundschool and then pass the ground exams. Most flying clubs offer 'discounted' rates for exams conducted for their own PPL students, but a special course and exams for someone expecting to go straight to the USA after passing? It might end up being charged at a non-discounted rate, perhaps? If you get my drift, squire......... .. ."You want to join us, do all the groundschool, sit the exams and then go to the US for your flying training? Certainly Sir, that'll be £100 to join, £25 per hour for groundschool, £25 per exam........"

[jmore]

laughable only way to describe it all! ok so with my instructing experience i am not the most highly qualified guy in either faa or jaa circles but i have the commercial and an ir and a multi ir and other silly bits of paper that entitle me to fly a multitude of very nice little things with fans on the front in several configurations -the new jar regs effective march 31st are hilarious -ok i'll come back to the uk and do my fi course there that you want me to do but once i have spent that 15 hrs dual with an instructor and done the 30 hours groundschool i take your checkride only to be told that i can only teach those jaa ppl students that wish to fly in america and that i cannot in fact teach it in britain using the course i have just taken (which incidentally is identical to a british fi requirements check flight). .i thought it was raining but nope theyre pissing down yer back!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I think the broad strategy is clear. PPL's done Stateside are to be stamped out whilst over here the NPPL makes pleasure flying training affordable. All training for professional purposes to be conducted in JAA schools in JAA countries following a JAA syllabus.. .. .Looks good to me.. .. .WWW