Does BALPA help Wannabes enough?
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Does BALPA help Wannabes enough?
After a "lively" discussion in the pub the other night, there was a mix of opinions as to how much support BALPA provides to Wannabes, especially the low hour ones.
My view is that with the website providing all the contact details and other good info, along with the conference every year, BALPA doesn't really do enough.
What do you think?
My view is that with the website providing all the contact details and other good info, along with the conference every year, BALPA doesn't really do enough.
What do you think?
Last edited by Go-Around; 14th Jan 2003 at 09:24.
Is the IPA any better?
I guess from BALPA's point of view, you only pay £2 a month to them, however their other members pay considerably more, hence they get better treatment.
My opinion only mind you.
S
I guess from BALPA's point of view, you only pay £2 a month to them, however their other members pay considerably more, hence they get better treatment.
My opinion only mind you.
S
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Splat:
That was my opinion, but those I was with thought that BALPA should look after it's wannabe members a bit better as they are the future fully paid up members!
I couldn't really see what else BALPA could provide, after all, they can't exactly hold people's hands and walk them into a job, although I was told that the Employment Conference used to be free to attend, and judging by the numbers there last year, at £25 a go, it must be a real earner for them.
That was my opinion, but those I was with thought that BALPA should look after it's wannabe members a bit better as they are the future fully paid up members!
I couldn't really see what else BALPA could provide, after all, they can't exactly hold people's hands and walk them into a job, although I was told that the Employment Conference used to be free to attend, and judging by the numbers there last year, at £25 a go, it must be a real earner for them.
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Providing contact details and staging a conference is just tokenism. They are hopelessly out of touch. What they need to be doing, if they want to be a union which actually represents, cherishes and promotes a profession from top to bottom, is campaign on issues which hinder efforts to get employed, ie scams and injustices, charges for applications, training courses that don't deliver what employers want, pay-for-MCC/type-ratings, jobs not being openly advertised, excessive taxation, unnaccountable regulation, the import of foreign pilots and aircraft, people paying to work, the forgotten flight instructors, the absence of GA from gov't transport strategies, the unfair transatlantic market, yada yada.
But, it's not just BALPA who don't do anything, virtually nobody else in the UK aviation 'community', including wannabes either as individuals or groups, is taking up the issues that effect employment prospects (or anything else).
This is a slowly-progressing project of mine...
But, it's not just BALPA who don't do anything, virtually nobody else in the UK aviation 'community', including wannabes either as individuals or groups, is taking up the issues that effect employment prospects (or anything else).
This is a slowly-progressing project of mine...
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carb:
I couldn't agree with you more. That's the kind of response I was looking for.
The import of foreign pilots is a hot topic of mine, but it seems that as soon as it's mentioned here, it's deleted.
I wonder how many of the directors of these unions and groups would be more active if it was there jobs that were being taken by foreigners.
What plans do you have?
I couldn't agree with you more. That's the kind of response I was looking for.
The import of foreign pilots is a hot topic of mine, but it seems that as soon as it's mentioned here, it's deleted.
I wonder how many of the directors of these unions and groups would be more active if it was there jobs that were being taken by foreigners.
What plans do you have?
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I don't have any concrete plans but we had a good thread on here last summer re the idea of a student pilot union, lots of ideas and support there, and much work we could be doing. The big obstacle though, is how, prior to bagging a flying job, to openly tackle employers and their associates without pissing on their chips and earning oneself the industry's most unwanted CV.
I think the IPA may have some mileage, they talk the talk, whether they are walking brisk enough is another matter. I'm on the case, albeit slowly and discretely
I think the IPA may have some mileage, they talk the talk, whether they are walking brisk enough is another matter. I'm on the case, albeit slowly and discretely
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NICE ONE CARP!!!!
I was told when I got my first job that you better join BALPA because if you had any probs they would be there for you.
B::::::S!!! Have you read the Log!!! Get real guys and get into the real world. Guys getting ripped off by TRTOs for 737 training with promised job at the end, and guess what you get at the end? Thats it no job and a load of debt.
So called sponsorship in Southampton and 6 years graft for little pay. Lets just have a level playing field and a decent salary for F/Os
When the day arrived and I needed legal help, I phoned the number on my Memb/Card and got put intouch with a legal guy on his mobile who promised to call me back!!!
Yep you guessed it 3 months later I am still waiting!! for his returned call.
You can get the same amount of legal help that is offered by BALPA for less than a fiver with the Transport and General Union.
I was told when I got my first job that you better join BALPA because if you had any probs they would be there for you.
B::::::S!!! Have you read the Log!!! Get real guys and get into the real world. Guys getting ripped off by TRTOs for 737 training with promised job at the end, and guess what you get at the end? Thats it no job and a load of debt.
So called sponsorship in Southampton and 6 years graft for little pay. Lets just have a level playing field and a decent salary for F/Os
When the day arrived and I needed legal help, I phoned the number on my Memb/Card and got put intouch with a legal guy on his mobile who promised to call me back!!!
Yep you guessed it 3 months later I am still waiting!! for his returned call.
You can get the same amount of legal help that is offered by BALPA for less than a fiver with the Transport and General Union.
Why do it if it's not fun?
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I was told when I got my first job that you better join BALPA because if you had any probs they would be there for you
FFF
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I don't think the problem is limited just to BALPA. I think that all of the unions are pretty much the same. They are run by people with jobs. Simple as that. Their main concern is their company council and that they are being treated fairly, and that's fair enough.
Maybe the unions would be more pro-active if some of their management were asked to pay for type ratings, work for free/expenses.
Maybe the unions would be more pro-active if some of their management were asked to pay for type ratings, work for free/expenses.
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Did my IR test 6 months ago from Leeds,heard one British pilot whole trip from Leeds,Manchester,Teeside returning to Leeds!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Kiwi in school quoted he had right to live and work here which he did, but who has more right to live and work here more than me?
doesn't happen in France,or Spain or Italy.
We are suckers who play the game by the rules and suffer for it.
I'm off to Canada tomorrow to try and get a job their,will post reply from other pilots on arrival.
Vive la France
Kiwi in school quoted he had right to live and work here which he did, but who has more right to live and work here more than me?
doesn't happen in France,or Spain or Italy.
We are suckers who play the game by the rules and suffer for it.
I'm off to Canada tomorrow to try and get a job their,will post reply from other pilots on arrival.
Vive la France
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While I'm no great fan of BALPA's efforts in the past, I am a member and have been for some years. I believe that they are now a great deal more effective than they used to be, or than people give them credit for.
However, they are a small union. I think the current membership is around 6000, including quite a few who are on associate or unemployed subscriptions. That doesn't add up to a lot of money, even with the (apparently huge ) contribution from the employment conferences, when BALPA's remit is so large. Don't forget that they have a significant technical input into aviation, as well as the safety, welfare and legal responsibilities that are more obvious - and it all costs, big time.
I do believe that more could be done for wannabes from within the union, but it requires voluntary labour from those closest to that particular coalface. And that, as ever, is where things tend to get stuck. As you will find, carb if you get anything going on your own, or decide to do it from within BALPA (a better solution, in my view), the work that needs doing will not be matched by the labour needed to do it. And there are always plenty who are willing to complain that your efforts aren't good enough!
As for the 'foreign pilots' debate, Wannabes is not the place for it.
Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
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However, they are a small union. I think the current membership is around 6000, including quite a few who are on associate or unemployed subscriptions. That doesn't add up to a lot of money, even with the (apparently huge
) contribution from the employment conferences, when BALPA's remit is so large. Don't forget that they have a significant technical input into aviation, as well as the safety, welfare and legal responsibilities that are more obvious - and it all costs, big time.I do believe that more could be done for wannabes from within the union, but it requires voluntary labour from those closest to that particular coalface. And that, as ever, is where things tend to get stuck. As you will find, carb if you get anything going on your own, or decide to do it from within BALPA (a better solution, in my view), the work that needs doing will not be matched by the labour needed to do it. And there are always plenty who are willing to complain that your efforts aren't good enough!
As for the 'foreign pilots' debate, Wannabes is not the place for it.
Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
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Anything is better than nothing, and I'm sure that there would be plenty of support for any action taken.
As for the "foreign pilot" debate, it is a topic which affects us wannabes. Where can it be sensibly debated?
As for the "foreign pilot" debate, it is a topic which affects us wannabes. Where can it be sensibly debated?
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Scroggs
Completely agree with your point that it would be better to tackle this within a grouping like BALPA than on your own. However, the crux of the problem lies in what one author has correctly mentioned as the 'blacklisted CV'. How to work on these sort of genuine problems that wannabees face without actually getting the snub by companies.
I appreciate that to a point you would be able to offer a moderated service being cautious about not offending the airlines etc but realistically this would not work as eventually the thin edge would be too much for an unemployed pilot looking for a job. How would BALPA effectively protect an individual working for them without actually negating the work they would do?
I see a couple of solutions - firstly a wannabee being chosen by BALPA to work on these issues and his/her name being kept confidential to all but the BALPA board/equivalent and secondly an employed person, perhaps recently offering to do this job again without their company knowing about it. There must be a few individuals who have recently got their first job who would be willing to dediate some time to this?
There are genuine issues to be dealt with and whilst I see that the remit of BALPA is large, the issues that affect wannabees affect all pilots and the industry.
Taking one issue, like training schools ripping off their customers, I think that is an issue which will hurt all of aviation from putting people off learning to fly to the damaging fallout and links to damaging the commercial reputation of schools/airlines. We must stop seeing these problems as wannabees problems and start seeing them for what they are and that is a blight on the whole industry.
If someone from BALPA or IPA are on the site and would like to contribute anonymously then please add your tuppence as many wannabees join BALPA to receive advice/info. The LOG does seem to cater for soley the long-haul rich captains with villas to buy/sell. Any chance of more cutting edge stories?
I for one would be willing to give some time to helping a wannabees union group.
Completely agree with your point that it would be better to tackle this within a grouping like BALPA than on your own. However, the crux of the problem lies in what one author has correctly mentioned as the 'blacklisted CV'. How to work on these sort of genuine problems that wannabees face without actually getting the snub by companies.
I appreciate that to a point you would be able to offer a moderated service being cautious about not offending the airlines etc but realistically this would not work as eventually the thin edge would be too much for an unemployed pilot looking for a job. How would BALPA effectively protect an individual working for them without actually negating the work they would do?
I see a couple of solutions - firstly a wannabee being chosen by BALPA to work on these issues and his/her name being kept confidential to all but the BALPA board/equivalent and secondly an employed person, perhaps recently offering to do this job again without their company knowing about it. There must be a few individuals who have recently got their first job who would be willing to dediate some time to this?
There are genuine issues to be dealt with and whilst I see that the remit of BALPA is large, the issues that affect wannabees affect all pilots and the industry.
Taking one issue, like training schools ripping off their customers, I think that is an issue which will hurt all of aviation from putting people off learning to fly to the damaging fallout and links to damaging the commercial reputation of schools/airlines. We must stop seeing these problems as wannabees problems and start seeing them for what they are and that is a blight on the whole industry.
If someone from BALPA or IPA are on the site and would like to contribute anonymously then please add your tuppence as many wannabees join BALPA to receive advice/info. The LOG does seem to cater for soley the long-haul rich captains with villas to buy/sell. Any chance of more cutting edge stories?
I for one would be willing to give some time to helping a wannabees union group.
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Go Around
There are many, many topics which are of interest to, or affect, wannabes but which are not appropriate to this forum. The debate about non-UK nationals working in UK is one of them, for a number of reasons.
This forum's remit is to enable the distribution and discussion of infomation apposite to obtaining a professional flying licence and/or a first professional flying appointment. This is a fairly narrow remit, yet this is still the second busiest forum on Pprune! Anything that strays from these specific topics increases WWW's and my workload, which is quite high enough, thanks!
The topic itself is very political, and highly emotionally charged. Much of the debate is, quite frankly, worthless because many of the proponents on either side have often neither researched nor have personal experience of the problem, and rely on apocryphal and anecdotal evidence to reinforce previously-held prejudices. As a result, the argument becomes hysterical, personal and vindictive remarkably quickly. Even without my first point, I'm not willing to spend my time refereeing such an argument when other forums on Pprune (Aircrew Notices, Terms and Endearments, and - as a last resort - Jet Blast) are both more appropriate and less busy.
I have a further reservation. I have a feeling that some of those who would like to debate this topic here are intending to take advantage of the wannabe's inherent lack of knowledge of the subject to foment bad feeling and prejudice. Rather than debate the topic where points of view would be challenged by those with the experience and knowledge to do so, they would prefer to cultivate new zealots here. I have an inherent dislike of these tactics, and have no wish to give bigots a platform for their views.
There is a serious debate to be had, and our unions are alive to the real potential for abuse of the UK's accommodating attitude and are actively involved in fighting those abuses - where they exist. However, for the reasons above, and the fact that no answer will be found in any debate here, that debate will have to be held elsewhere.
Scroggs
Virgin/Wannabes Moderator
[email protected]
There are many, many topics which are of interest to, or affect, wannabes but which are not appropriate to this forum. The debate about non-UK nationals working in UK is one of them, for a number of reasons.
This forum's remit is to enable the distribution and discussion of infomation apposite to obtaining a professional flying licence and/or a first professional flying appointment. This is a fairly narrow remit, yet this is still the second busiest forum on Pprune! Anything that strays from these specific topics increases WWW's and my workload, which is quite high enough, thanks!
The topic itself is very political, and highly emotionally charged. Much of the debate is, quite frankly, worthless because many of the proponents on either side have often neither researched nor have personal experience of the problem, and rely on apocryphal and anecdotal evidence to reinforce previously-held prejudices. As a result, the argument becomes hysterical, personal and vindictive remarkably quickly. Even without my first point, I'm not willing to spend my time refereeing such an argument when other forums on Pprune (Aircrew Notices, Terms and Endearments, and - as a last resort - Jet Blast) are both more appropriate and less busy.
I have a further reservation. I have a feeling that some of those who would like to debate this topic here are intending to take advantage of the wannabe's inherent lack of knowledge of the subject to foment bad feeling and prejudice. Rather than debate the topic where points of view would be challenged by those with the experience and knowledge to do so, they would prefer to cultivate new zealots here. I have an inherent dislike of these tactics, and have no wish to give bigots a platform for their views.
There is a serious debate to be had, and our unions are alive to the real potential for abuse of the UK's accommodating attitude and are actively involved in fighting those abuses - where they exist. However, for the reasons above, and the fact that no answer will be found in any debate here, that debate will have to be held elsewhere.
Scroggs
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time to play devils advocate
Why the hell should my subscriptions go towards trying to get you lot jobs ?.
I,ve worked long and hard to get myself into aviation without a penny of help from any one and at last make about half that of a BA long haul captain.
Now you lot want me to help pay for all sorts of nif-naf and trivia to make you feel good because jobs are hard to find.
Grow up ! , if you are BALPA members then you may get some help , if not then you will get the same help as I got from the industry........sweet FA.
I,ve worked long and hard to get myself into aviation without a penny of help from any one and at last make about half that of a BA long haul captain.
Now you lot want me to help pay for all sorts of nif-naf and trivia to make you feel good because jobs are hard to find.
Grow up ! , if you are BALPA members then you may get some help , if not then you will get the same help as I got from the industry........sweet FA.
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We're not asking for a contribution from your massive subscription! All we're asking for is some representation, after all, that's what I though a union was for.
Maybe when you fought you're way in to a job, all on your own, the same issues that affect a wannabe today weren't relevant?
Maybe when you fought you're way in to a job, all on your own, the same issues that affect a wannabe today weren't relevant?
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Perhaps that is why the unions and the industry are stuck in a rut and why some captains show such blatantly 'old school' thinking on the flight deck.
Some people were caned when they were in school - perhaps we should bring back that for these lucky young people who manage through hard work and determination to get a job soon after graduation! I am constantly stupefied by people who think that just because they had to go through hell to get their jobs then everyonw else should have to as well.
Sure there will always be freeloaders but there is also a lot of hard working people. Why should'nt they walk inot a job and expect the unions to help them out. Times are changing and people need to change with them.
What the last gentleman is paying his union fees for is protection for the industry as a whole. If the union does not help wannabees then more and more people will start working for lower and lower pay which in turn will reduce pay further up the scale. i.e. in teh end this guy/girl who is earning half of a BA long-haul captain' will end up being paid a quarter of that same BA guy or else there will be plenty of young people ready to fly and who are used to being paid much smaller amounts of money.
When are people going to stop looking at the small picture and realise that these issues affect everybody INCLUDING those of you earning mega-bucks and flying long-haul. Ever heard of the global economy and Multinational Corporations!!!!!
Some people were caned when they were in school - perhaps we should bring back that for these lucky young people who manage through hard work and determination to get a job soon after graduation! I am constantly stupefied by people who think that just because they had to go through hell to get their jobs then everyonw else should have to as well.
Sure there will always be freeloaders but there is also a lot of hard working people. Why should'nt they walk inot a job and expect the unions to help them out. Times are changing and people need to change with them.
What the last gentleman is paying his union fees for is protection for the industry as a whole. If the union does not help wannabees then more and more people will start working for lower and lower pay which in turn will reduce pay further up the scale. i.e. in teh end this guy/girl who is earning half of a BA long-haul captain' will end up being paid a quarter of that same BA guy or else there will be plenty of young people ready to fly and who are used to being paid much smaller amounts of money.
When are people going to stop looking at the small picture and realise that these issues affect everybody INCLUDING those of you earning mega-bucks and flying long-haul. Ever heard of the global economy and Multinational Corporations!!!!!
Why do it if it's not fun?
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Go-Around,
I think what A and C is saying is that this "representation" that you want will require someone's time. And that person will want to be paid for that time. And the money for that will come out of his subscription.
Even unions are susceptible to market forces. If they don't keep their fee-paying members happy, the cease to exist. They don't really care about wannabes, because by the time us wannabes are long-haul captains, the current union leaders will have retired.
FFF
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I think what A and C is saying is that this "representation" that you want will require someone's time. And that person will want to be paid for that time. And the money for that will come out of his subscription.
Even unions are susceptible to market forces. If they don't keep their fee-paying members happy, the cease to exist. They don't really care about wannabes, because by the time us wannabes are long-haul captains, the current union leaders will have retired.
FFF
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