Where to hour build cheaply and constructively towards JAR Modular Route?
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Where to hour build cheaply and constructively towards JAR Modular Route?
Hi
I'm nearly finished my PPL (JAR), and want to make a career out of flying. I'm 28 and sponsorship seems unlikely beyond 26?
I want to do constructive hourbuilding in 2003 working towards JAR CPL and good quality training is the key.
Can anyone recommend places to train from first hand experience, along with "honest costs" including accomdation and living expenses. Budgets as ever are tight from my point of view, and obviously I want to get the best I can for my money.
USA, South Africa are inviting - it's really a case of getting solid info and making sure I make a solid informed choice.
Hope someone can help?
Cheers
I'm nearly finished my PPL (JAR), and want to make a career out of flying. I'm 28 and sponsorship seems unlikely beyond 26?
I want to do constructive hourbuilding in 2003 working towards JAR CPL and good quality training is the key.
Can anyone recommend places to train from first hand experience, along with "honest costs" including accomdation and living expenses. Budgets as ever are tight from my point of view, and obviously I want to get the best I can for my money.
USA, South Africa are inviting - it's really a case of getting solid info and making sure I make a solid informed choice.
Hope someone can help?
Cheers
Join Date: Oct 2001
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I've flown 70 hours in the last year, bringing my P1 total to exactly 100hrs yesterday. So that's my hours building finished... and it was such great fun!
A rough estimate of the cost for the year has is about £4000, or approximately £58ph, all in (excluding landing fees and bacon sandwiches at away airfields).
I've been working full time, and have only left the country with me at the controls.
Bargain hours building? Where?
In the UK. At my local airfield. In 'my' aeroplane.
If you are working full time and would rather not take your years holiday allowance to find some cheep flying on the other side of a long haul flight and accomadation costs - and blow your years flying budget in a couple of weeks - then consider buying into a group owned aircraft.
The Private Flying forum is a good place to ask about this.
Look at the classifieds in Pilot, Popular Flying and the like you'll find some very attractive rates.
Although you'll need to find the capital to buy into the group (anything between £1000 and £8000 will be needed, depending on what it is you are after), the beauty of aircraft is that although they steal your money they do not depreciate. So, once you've clocked up you required number of hours, you can sell up and use the money you get back to pay for the CPL flying training.
My £4k has included all the surprise maintainence, the monthly fees (hangarage and insurance), and the hourly rate for flying.
A rough estimate of the cost for the year has is about £4000, or approximately £58ph, all in (excluding landing fees and bacon sandwiches at away airfields).
I've been working full time, and have only left the country with me at the controls.
Bargain hours building? Where?
In the UK. At my local airfield. In 'my' aeroplane.
If you are working full time and would rather not take your years holiday allowance to find some cheep flying on the other side of a long haul flight and accomadation costs - and blow your years flying budget in a couple of weeks - then consider buying into a group owned aircraft.
The Private Flying forum is a good place to ask about this.
Look at the classifieds in Pilot, Popular Flying and the like you'll find some very attractive rates.
Although you'll need to find the capital to buy into the group (anything between £1000 and £8000 will be needed, depending on what it is you are after), the beauty of aircraft is that although they steal your money they do not depreciate. So, once you've clocked up you required number of hours, you can sell up and use the money you get back to pay for the CPL flying training.
My £4k has included all the surprise maintainence, the monthly fees (hangarage and insurance), and the hourly rate for flying.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Here in Cordoba you can rent a C150 for about €100. If you want me to get more info, send me a mail. Living costs here are quite low in comparison with the UK.
Good flights
Joaqu'n
Joaqu'n
Good flights
Joaqu'n
Joaqu'n
www.harvsair.com
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time building suggestion
**All rates includes headsets, insurance, oil, and fuel**
No background checks, no student visa required.
All Fees are in Canadian Funds
Excahnge rates based on xe.com
Cessna 152 $80 per hour or 31.8243 GBP
Cessna 172 $92 per hour or 36.5984 GBP
Piper Pa-28-140 $88 per hour or 35.0075 GBP
Citabria 7-ECA $84 per hour or 33.4162 GBP
BeechCraft B95 (Dual) $245 per hour or 97.4640 GBP
Pitts S2B (Dual Only) $310 per hour or 123.324 GBP
**All rates includes headsets, insurance, oil, and fuel**
Elite FTD (Simulator) Solo: $10 per hour
Elite FTD (Simulator) Dual: $75 per hour
On airport accommodations:
$325/month or 129.290 GBP/month (single room)
2 Brand new houses being installed on the airport right now, ready for Jan 1/03
Fee includes monthly housekeeping.
Fully furnished, including kitchen utensils.
Utilities included, excect long distance telephone.
"Dorm style" Single and shared rooms
Clean, modern, comfortable. Located 250 feet from the school and airplanes. NO NEED FOR A CAR!
Adam
www.harvsair.com
No background checks, no student visa required.
All Fees are in Canadian Funds
Excahnge rates based on xe.com
Cessna 152 $80 per hour or 31.8243 GBP
Cessna 172 $92 per hour or 36.5984 GBP
Piper Pa-28-140 $88 per hour or 35.0075 GBP
Citabria 7-ECA $84 per hour or 33.4162 GBP
BeechCraft B95 (Dual) $245 per hour or 97.4640 GBP
Pitts S2B (Dual Only) $310 per hour or 123.324 GBP
**All rates includes headsets, insurance, oil, and fuel**
Elite FTD (Simulator) Solo: $10 per hour
Elite FTD (Simulator) Dual: $75 per hour
On airport accommodations:
$325/month or 129.290 GBP/month (single room)
2 Brand new houses being installed on the airport right now, ready for Jan 1/03
Fee includes monthly housekeeping.
Fully furnished, including kitchen utensils.
Utilities included, excect long distance telephone.
"Dorm style" Single and shared rooms
Clean, modern, comfortable. Located 250 feet from the school and airplanes. NO NEED FOR A CAR!
Adam
www.harvsair.com
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
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Dusty is absolutely spot on. But it can be done even cheaper if you try hard enough.
First of all, you'll need a tail-dragger check-out. Then look for a share in a single-seater PFA aircraft. I've seen 1/12th shares go for less than £1000. (Yes, less than one thousand pounds.) After that, you can fly as much as you like for around £10/hour, plus £10/month to cover insurance, parking, etc. Once you've finished, sell the share and get back your initial £1000 investment (unless you get so hooked that you don't want to sell, of course!) And because you'll only be doing about 60 or 70kts, even a moderate-length cross-country will build up the hours quickly!
The only problem with this approach is finding a group (and an insurance company) who will let you fly with little or no tail-wheel time. If this turns out to be a problem, there are plenty of two-seater aircraft around which aren't much more expensive. My Europa costs £15/hour dry (approx £25/hour wet), and £50/month. (The initial share cost me £6500 for 1/6th share, which is quite a lot, but bear in mind that this was for an aircraft which was less than a year old, had around 25 hours logged, and was kitted out including a full panel and a Garmin 430.) For this price, I get 125kt cruise, retractable, turbo-charged, variable-pitch prop.
I don't believe you'll be able to rent anywhere for cheaper than the cost of buying. And once you factor in the cost of accomodation and travel, I think this is the only option if keeping the cost down is your priority.
However..... I'd also suggest that, after completing your PPL, you rent for maybe 20-30 hours, then do your ATPL exams. Worry about hour-building after that. The reason is that if you do your hour-building now, then spend a year doing the exams and don't fly in that year, then by the time you're ready to do the CPL course your flying skills will be very rusty. Far better to do the hour-building immediately before the CPL, IMHO.
Good luck - and don't forget to have fun!
FFF
---------------
First of all, you'll need a tail-dragger check-out. Then look for a share in a single-seater PFA aircraft. I've seen 1/12th shares go for less than £1000. (Yes, less than one thousand pounds.) After that, you can fly as much as you like for around £10/hour, plus £10/month to cover insurance, parking, etc. Once you've finished, sell the share and get back your initial £1000 investment (unless you get so hooked that you don't want to sell, of course!) And because you'll only be doing about 60 or 70kts, even a moderate-length cross-country will build up the hours quickly!
The only problem with this approach is finding a group (and an insurance company) who will let you fly with little or no tail-wheel time. If this turns out to be a problem, there are plenty of two-seater aircraft around which aren't much more expensive. My Europa costs £15/hour dry (approx £25/hour wet), and £50/month. (The initial share cost me £6500 for 1/6th share, which is quite a lot, but bear in mind that this was for an aircraft which was less than a year old, had around 25 hours logged, and was kitted out including a full panel and a Garmin 430.) For this price, I get 125kt cruise, retractable, turbo-charged, variable-pitch prop.
I don't believe you'll be able to rent anywhere for cheaper than the cost of buying. And once you factor in the cost of accomodation and travel, I think this is the only option if keeping the cost down is your priority.
However..... I'd also suggest that, after completing your PPL, you rent for maybe 20-30 hours, then do your ATPL exams. Worry about hour-building after that. The reason is that if you do your hour-building now, then spend a year doing the exams and don't fly in that year, then by the time you're ready to do the CPL course your flying skills will be very rusty. Far better to do the hour-building immediately before the CPL, IMHO.
Good luck - and don't forget to have fun!
FFF
---------------
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hour building in USA
hi
I recently spent 6 weeks at Britannia Flight Centre, Florida and flew over 100 hours.
I had a fantastic time. The people were extremely helpful and friendly. As for the aircraft, I can honestly say that they were the best that I have seen in America (I have flown out there several times).
With the owner, I delivered the aircraft to Michigan - which was a round trip of over 2,000 miles. This was a fantastic learning and confidence building experience.
If you are serious about your CPL then contact Eric Shipley on ericshipley.msn.com. He will do all he can to help you.
Enjoy!!
gary.
I recently spent 6 weeks at Britannia Flight Centre, Florida and flew over 100 hours.
I had a fantastic time. The people were extremely helpful and friendly. As for the aircraft, I can honestly say that they were the best that I have seen in America (I have flown out there several times).
With the owner, I delivered the aircraft to Michigan - which was a round trip of over 2,000 miles. This was a fantastic learning and confidence building experience.
If you are serious about your CPL then contact Eric Shipley on ericshipley.msn.com. He will do all he can to help you.
Enjoy!!
gary.
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You could join one of the clubs in Dublin airport, theres annual fee of about 500 euro but you can the aircraft at a good rate,
C-152 for 90euro and a C-172 for 115euro.
If you know Dublin well you can get accomodation very cheap.
With the odd delay on the ramp for jet traffic you get to operate out of an international airport and fly to the likes of shannon, waterford, belfast etc and for the small airfields there is a cheaper cost for landing fees compared to the UK
C-152 for 90euro and a C-172 for 115euro.
If you know Dublin well you can get accomodation very cheap.
With the odd delay on the ramp for jet traffic you get to operate out of an international airport and fly to the likes of shannon, waterford, belfast etc and for the small airfields there is a cheaper cost for landing fees compared to the UK
Flies for fun
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bakerpilot, it wasn't that recently that you flew with Britannia! I flew into Winterhaven in December and the Britannia Flight Centre was deserted and their old airplanes were laying around with flat tyres and looking very sad! Jatin I understand is now with NAC and George is flying 135's in New York State if rumours are correct!
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Hour building
75 hours@52$ an hour=$3900
Hotel $40 a night =$560
Flight=virgin straight thru fly drive £400
grand total=approx £3400 +2 weeks holiday and some interesting sights ie Vegas,L.A and a few others you would not see from the ground.
If you want any more info e-mail me mate ok.
Also no worries about the weather
Hotel $40 a night =$560
Flight=virgin straight thru fly drive £400
grand total=approx £3400 +2 weeks holiday and some interesting sights ie Vegas,L.A and a few others you would not see from the ground.
If you want any more info e-mail me mate ok.
Also no worries about the weather
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Debenair at Space Coast Regional airport, Florida.
C150's, 152's $41 an hour wet. Good school, I've been there and done a good number of hours with them, no complaints, good controlled airport, plus good views of the shuttle launch site every time you take off.
Accomodation I think was about $135 per week, shared room with one other. Plus car rental as transport's a bit limited, although you can arrange lifts with the school for a small fee.
C150's, 152's $41 an hour wet. Good school, I've been there and done a good number of hours with them, no complaints, good controlled airport, plus good views of the shuttle launch site every time you take off.
Accomodation I think was about $135 per week, shared room with one other. Plus car rental as transport's a bit limited, although you can arrange lifts with the school for a small fee.
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Thanks for the unashamed plug Bakerpilot and I understand congratulations are in order for the issue of your CPL.
"Sensibles" comments may have been valid in December although I cannot ever recall seeing a "flat" tyre on the line.
In deference to George and Jatin's wishes the Britannia Flight Centre's name is no longer being used so that in the event that they should wish to re-open the School they will be free to resume the Britannia name.
It was very gratifying to read the accolades being heaped on George and Jatin for the way they ran the Britannia Flight Centre and particularily for the way in which they decided to call it a day. (See Wannabees 17th Oct 2002 17.03) Honesty and Integrity may yet prevail.
In the meantime there is the matter of what to with 11 aircraft for which there was no immediate use.
Here is the current situation. Three of the aircraft have been refurbished and sold and an ongoing programme is scheduled for the remainder. I trust no one would dispute that Flight School Aircraft are kicked around and abused and therefore require some considerable amount of cosmetic restoration before they can be presented for sale to private owners. As a result some of the aircraft are now available for hours building until such time as they are withdrawn from use for restoration or that a viable hour building operation can be sustained. Updates on the current goings on at Winter Haven can be found at
wingsandwheelsfl.com
We are always glad to have visitors from UK, by road or by air, if only to remind us about the Weather.
Margaret and Eric Shipley
"Sensibles" comments may have been valid in December although I cannot ever recall seeing a "flat" tyre on the line.
In deference to George and Jatin's wishes the Britannia Flight Centre's name is no longer being used so that in the event that they should wish to re-open the School they will be free to resume the Britannia name.
It was very gratifying to read the accolades being heaped on George and Jatin for the way they ran the Britannia Flight Centre and particularily for the way in which they decided to call it a day. (See Wannabees 17th Oct 2002 17.03) Honesty and Integrity may yet prevail.
In the meantime there is the matter of what to with 11 aircraft for which there was no immediate use.
Here is the current situation. Three of the aircraft have been refurbished and sold and an ongoing programme is scheduled for the remainder. I trust no one would dispute that Flight School Aircraft are kicked around and abused and therefore require some considerable amount of cosmetic restoration before they can be presented for sale to private owners. As a result some of the aircraft are now available for hours building until such time as they are withdrawn from use for restoration or that a viable hour building operation can be sustained. Updates on the current goings on at Winter Haven can be found at
wingsandwheelsfl.com
We are always glad to have visitors from UK, by road or by air, if only to remind us about the Weather.
Margaret and Eric Shipley
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I happened to be at BFC at the same time as Bakerpilot, i can also confirm that the treatment you will receive from Margaret and Eric Shipley will be second to none.
The aircraft are in good shape with rather good rates also
It's well worth considering. I am planning a return trip out there later this year.
www.wingsandwheelsfl.com
The aircraft are in good shape with rather good rates also
It's well worth considering. I am planning a return trip out there later this year.
www.wingsandwheelsfl.com
Flies for fun
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Ooops, sorry Margaret, I did come a looking and the old flight center was closed. I made enquiries at the main building and the guy I spoke to said that Britannia had definitely closed down. I did try the office by the pumps but didn't find any sign of life! Guess I should have phoned first. You must have been at lunch! Nice to see the new taxiway to 29 though - saves a long backtaxi down an active runway!
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Hour Building at Winterhaven
I have recently returned from Florida - to update the comments re Eric and Margaret Shipleys new venture "www.wingsandwheelsfl.com".
They are offerring hour building using C172/Warrior aircraft - their rates are very attractive - especially if you are hour building (see their web site). Eric has already improved the condition of aircraft and I understand further renovations are planned.
Both Eric and Margaret were very hospitable and made my family feel very welcome.
If you want to build hours or just do some holiday flying I can thoroughly recommend "Wings and Wheels".
John Rigby
They are offerring hour building using C172/Warrior aircraft - their rates are very attractive - especially if you are hour building (see their web site). Eric has already improved the condition of aircraft and I understand further renovations are planned.
Both Eric and Margaret were very hospitable and made my family feel very welcome.
If you want to build hours or just do some holiday flying I can thoroughly recommend "Wings and Wheels".
John Rigby
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Hours Building
Byles
It seems that the really important part of your post -
"I want to do constructive hourbuilding in 2003 working towards JAR CPL and good quality training is the key"
- may have been somewhat missed by some of the respondents who have perhaps understandably focused only on cost.
From a CPL / IR training perspective, a large number of students come forward with 150 hours in their books, but are far from ready to start the CPL syllabus. The minimum 150 hours requirement for the start of a CPL course is intended by those who make the rules to ensure that the basic PPL skills are developed, honed, polished etc up to a standard where the demands of the CPL course can be met. Flying around and around in the cheapest aircraft and airspace you can find will likely ensure that you find the CPL, and more importantly the IR courses an uphill struggle right from the start.
For example, one UK FTO has recently introduced a 50 hour structured hours building package based on preparation for the CPL Course. It is divided into 5 segments, each starting with a days refresher groundschool on a group of subjects, followed by a check out / demo flight and 8 – 10 hours solo on a 150.
All in, (including base landing fees etc) it is offered at around £68 / hour.
I guess it all depends on whether you just want to get 150 hours in your book, or learn something along the way ?
It seems that the really important part of your post -
"I want to do constructive hourbuilding in 2003 working towards JAR CPL and good quality training is the key"
- may have been somewhat missed by some of the respondents who have perhaps understandably focused only on cost.
From a CPL / IR training perspective, a large number of students come forward with 150 hours in their books, but are far from ready to start the CPL syllabus. The minimum 150 hours requirement for the start of a CPL course is intended by those who make the rules to ensure that the basic PPL skills are developed, honed, polished etc up to a standard where the demands of the CPL course can be met. Flying around and around in the cheapest aircraft and airspace you can find will likely ensure that you find the CPL, and more importantly the IR courses an uphill struggle right from the start.
For example, one UK FTO has recently introduced a 50 hour structured hours building package based on preparation for the CPL Course. It is divided into 5 segments, each starting with a days refresher groundschool on a group of subjects, followed by a check out / demo flight and 8 – 10 hours solo on a 150.
All in, (including base landing fees etc) it is offered at around £68 / hour.
I guess it all depends on whether you just want to get 150 hours in your book, or learn something along the way ?
