You know who you are...
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You know who you are...
I'm a student working on my private pilot. I take lessons at an aircraft services company which specializes mainly in aircraft maintenance and repair. I'm one of only a handful of teenagers at this place taking lessons. The guys at this place are mainly older guys who've been around the block a time or two. Frankly, they're a bunch of jerks. I'm treated with disrespect on a daily basis and I feel it's because I'm a "kid". My question is this: Should I just get used to this type of treatment because of my age? After all, youth is something we all grow out of. Is this something any of you encountered when you first started flying?
The only reason I stay at this place is because I like my Flight Instructor. He's the only one who treats me with any respect or dignity; although I have a feeling it's simply because he doesn't want to lose my business.
Maybe this is normal, I really don't know. But I feel it's cutting down on my enjoyment of the thrill of becoming a pilot.
What do ya'll think?
Thanks.
The only reason I stay at this place is because I like my Flight Instructor. He's the only one who treats me with any respect or dignity; although I have a feeling it's simply because he doesn't want to lose my business.
Maybe this is normal, I really don't know. But I feel it's cutting down on my enjoyment of the thrill of becoming a pilot.
What do ya'll think?
Thanks.
The Oracle
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BFH,
They are acting completely unprofessional. Does not sound like the place you should work or train. You might want to quietly start looking for work at another FBO.
Best of Luck,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
They are acting completely unprofessional. Does not sound like the place you should work or train. You might want to quietly start looking for work at another FBO.
Best of Luck,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Dear BFH,
I should like to support the advice given by Capt. Gentil of Naples Air Centre. I couldn't have put it better myself. There isn't only one good instructor in the whole world.
I fear that treating the young with disrespect is, however, all too common even on this side of the pond. That doesn't mean you have to put up with it. you should take just so much and no more.
Is there no possibility of your instructor intervening on your behalf and telling these wallies to P** *ff. After all, if he really wants to keep your business, he should be prepared to do something to keep it.
Best wishes from Britain for a much happier New Years flying.
If all else fails let me know and I'll fly over on my flying broomstick and turn them all into human beings. (No use turning them into frogs and toads: they're clearly that already).
Good luck Kid.
I should like to support the advice given by Capt. Gentil of Naples Air Centre. I couldn't have put it better myself. There isn't only one good instructor in the whole world.
I fear that treating the young with disrespect is, however, all too common even on this side of the pond. That doesn't mean you have to put up with it. you should take just so much and no more.
Is there no possibility of your instructor intervening on your behalf and telling these wallies to P** *ff. After all, if he really wants to keep your business, he should be prepared to do something to keep it.
Best wishes from Britain for a much happier New Years flying.
If all else fails let me know and I'll fly over on my flying broomstick and turn them all into human beings. (No use turning them into frogs and toads: they're clearly that already).
Good luck Kid.
Avoid imitations
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I agree with the previous posts. There is no excuse for treating anyone, especially a paying customer in an instructional environment, with disrespect.
I and countless others suffered this sort of thing over 25 yrs ago as a military student pilot, where some QFIs and some of the ground and admin staff thought of themselves as little demigods and treated students as idiots.
Later in life, when I knew better and had become an instructor myself, I was a paying customer at an civvy establishment, carrying out some refresher training for my professional licence. I was programmed to fly with one such ex-mil QFI. I became very unhappy with him after a couple of trips as I wasn't learning anything, just getting very pi$$ed off at many £ per hour!
After a few unheeded very heavy hints from me, I finally told him to take control of the aircraft and asked him to land off the approach because I'd had enough. He started to argue, so I folded my arms and said I was paying nothing after the next approach. He got that message! He landed, and we had the argument on the ground (where flight safety wasn't an issue). I told him that although the military may have found his arrogant and aggressive instructional attitude acceptable twenty years before, as a paying customer contributing to his salary it certainly was not accepable to me now. I climbed out and left him alone in the cockpit. I never flew with this instructor again and I later got a grudging apology from himself and another wholehearted one on behalf of the school.
Having got that off my chest, I think you should firstly explain how you feel to your instructor. He sounds a good guy and might be able to help.
Then if things don't improve, show this outfit the view they deserve - of your back as you depart through the door. They don't deserve your custom if they don't treat you correctly.
Good luck
I and countless others suffered this sort of thing over 25 yrs ago as a military student pilot, where some QFIs and some of the ground and admin staff thought of themselves as little demigods and treated students as idiots.
Later in life, when I knew better and had become an instructor myself, I was a paying customer at an civvy establishment, carrying out some refresher training for my professional licence. I was programmed to fly with one such ex-mil QFI. I became very unhappy with him after a couple of trips as I wasn't learning anything, just getting very pi$$ed off at many £ per hour!
After a few unheeded very heavy hints from me, I finally told him to take control of the aircraft and asked him to land off the approach because I'd had enough. He started to argue, so I folded my arms and said I was paying nothing after the next approach. He got that message! He landed, and we had the argument on the ground (where flight safety wasn't an issue). I told him that although the military may have found his arrogant and aggressive instructional attitude acceptable twenty years before, as a paying customer contributing to his salary it certainly was not accepable to me now. I climbed out and left him alone in the cockpit. I never flew with this instructor again and I later got a grudging apology from himself and another wholehearted one on behalf of the school.
Having got that off my chest, I think you should firstly explain how you feel to your instructor. He sounds a good guy and might be able to help.
Then if things don't improve, show this outfit the view they deserve - of your back as you depart through the door. They don't deserve your custom if they don't treat you correctly.
Good luck
Person Of Interest
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I also agree with the above posts.
One other thing you may want to point out, if it applies: You are working on your Private. After that comes what? Does this school figure they're going to take you all the way? That's a considerable amount of business.
You hit the nail on the head when you said flying wasn't fun anymore. Look for another school because I have the feeling it's not going to get any better where you are.
Maybe your instructor can come with you, or at least work out a deal to freelance with you at your new school. Maybe Richard at NAC can correct me, but I think your instructor getting accepted by the new FTO' insurance is all that's legally required.
Good luck...
[ 06 January 2002: Message edited by: DownIn3Green ]</p>
One other thing you may want to point out, if it applies: You are working on your Private. After that comes what? Does this school figure they're going to take you all the way? That's a considerable amount of business.
You hit the nail on the head when you said flying wasn't fun anymore. Look for another school because I have the feeling it's not going to get any better where you are.
Maybe your instructor can come with you, or at least work out a deal to freelance with you at your new school. Maybe Richard at NAC can correct me, but I think your instructor getting accepted by the new FTO' insurance is all that's legally required.
Good luck...
[ 06 January 2002: Message edited by: DownIn3Green ]</p>
The Original Whirly
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I entirely agree with all the above posts. I had a bad time when I was learning to fly, though for completely different reasons. I stuck it because I didn't know how things were meant to be, thought maybe I was being over sensitive, and didn't want the upheaval of going to a new place. I know now I should have left. Flying is meant to be fun, and you're the one who's paying. There are lots of good instructors in the world. If you want to try to change things first then do, but if it's everyone treating you that way then I think you'll be fighting a losing battle and should go elsewhere. Good luck. And remember, there's nothing wrong with being young. Ageism has no place in aviation.
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Take all the advice above. Unfortunately there are some nobs scattered here and there who need to be knocked of there high horses.
Im 26 and have a PPL + ratings etc, and last year I landed at an airfield, paid my fees, and I still had some old nob looking down at me as if Im scum. So I went and something to eat in there club house as all flying visitors are very welcome, so they say. And another bloke on his high horse questioned the bar maid if I was allowed in there or not. Well as far as Im concerned these old fashioned pr**ks have no place in todays aviation, and in the end they will lose out. So even after you qualify and get older and wiser you still come across them
Good luck
Mint
Im 26 and have a PPL + ratings etc, and last year I landed at an airfield, paid my fees, and I still had some old nob looking down at me as if Im scum. So I went and something to eat in there club house as all flying visitors are very welcome, so they say. And another bloke on his high horse questioned the bar maid if I was allowed in there or not. Well as far as Im concerned these old fashioned pr**ks have no place in todays aviation, and in the end they will lose out. So even after you qualify and get older and wiser you still come across them
Good luck
Mint
Over the festive period I had occassion to be at a flying club (not one anyone who knows me would be able to guess) taking a few friends up for a nice tool around the local area.
Now not wanting to be an ostentatious prat I left my flightcase and flash gear at home and pitched up instead with a Tesco bag full of headsets, Airways chart and odd pens (but no GA Map). As a safety aid I took along my Garmin GPS Pilot3 which is a Very Nice Toy Indeed.
Upon clocking this kit spilling out of my Tesco bag I was mildly suprised to be accosted by Captain BusyBody of the local PPL Police. Who to my slack jawed amusement began to harang me for being a GPS nit wit who couldn't fly for toffee and had I considered the imminent arrival of IMC conditions..?!?! Your type make me sick type comments also followed.
Whilst I initially took this interference with good grace and smiled indulgently at my new found self apointed guardian. He continued to enquire rather rudely whether I held an IMC rating.
To which I said No and in a thrice he was down my throat with all kinds of nonsense about an impending warm front of Biblical proportions. Layer upon layer of trecharous stratoform (sic) clouds were just waiting to imprison me hopeless and alone above 8/8ths.
By the time he ran out of breath I had decided that I should indulge this prat no longer.
"I don't have an IMC rating becuase I have an Instrument Rating, being as I am a fully qualified Instrument Rating Instructor with over 1000hrs on this type of aircraft. For which I am also a Class Rating Examiner. I have extensive knowledge of the local area and if necessary have prepared not one but 2 diversions with differing types of instrument approaches available to well below forecast weather minima. In addition I am carrying a backup GPS unit, IFR charts and plates and a fuel reserve of twice that I predict I will burn. Now if you don't mind I would like to go and commit aviation now unless that is you would like me to conduct your biannual flight test for you beforehand? Hmm? Thought not. Good day Sir."
I exited stage left with my passengers and witnessed the undisguised glee and grins of the club regulars and staff who had suffered at the hands of this self appointed flight safety prat before.
It made me smile for days.
There are just as many prats in aviation as in any other walk of life.
The upside is that aviation contains more than its fair share of tremendous people.
Don't lets the ******s grind you down.
WWW
Now not wanting to be an ostentatious prat I left my flightcase and flash gear at home and pitched up instead with a Tesco bag full of headsets, Airways chart and odd pens (but no GA Map). As a safety aid I took along my Garmin GPS Pilot3 which is a Very Nice Toy Indeed.
Upon clocking this kit spilling out of my Tesco bag I was mildly suprised to be accosted by Captain BusyBody of the local PPL Police. Who to my slack jawed amusement began to harang me for being a GPS nit wit who couldn't fly for toffee and had I considered the imminent arrival of IMC conditions..?!?! Your type make me sick type comments also followed.
Whilst I initially took this interference with good grace and smiled indulgently at my new found self apointed guardian. He continued to enquire rather rudely whether I held an IMC rating.
To which I said No and in a thrice he was down my throat with all kinds of nonsense about an impending warm front of Biblical proportions. Layer upon layer of trecharous stratoform (sic) clouds were just waiting to imprison me hopeless and alone above 8/8ths.
By the time he ran out of breath I had decided that I should indulge this prat no longer.
"I don't have an IMC rating becuase I have an Instrument Rating, being as I am a fully qualified Instrument Rating Instructor with over 1000hrs on this type of aircraft. For which I am also a Class Rating Examiner. I have extensive knowledge of the local area and if necessary have prepared not one but 2 diversions with differing types of instrument approaches available to well below forecast weather minima. In addition I am carrying a backup GPS unit, IFR charts and plates and a fuel reserve of twice that I predict I will burn. Now if you don't mind I would like to go and commit aviation now unless that is you would like me to conduct your biannual flight test for you beforehand? Hmm? Thought not. Good day Sir."
I exited stage left with my passengers and witnessed the undisguised glee and grins of the club regulars and staff who had suffered at the hands of this self appointed flight safety prat before.
It made me smile for days.
There are just as many prats in aviation as in any other walk of life.
The upside is that aviation contains more than its fair share of tremendous people.
Don't lets the ******s grind you down.
WWW
The Oracle
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DownIn3Green,
BFH should be able to take his flight instructor with him. The new FBO might require that the instructor be checked out, and that the aircraft be rented by BFH, since most insurance policies read "The person renting the aircraft cannot profit monetarily from the flight", but that should be all.
BFH,
There was one thing I was thinking about that I should have mentioned in my first post to you. When you a learning to fly at an FBO where you work, you should expect to get bumped from your scheduled flights. The customers need to be taken care of first. That is just part of the way FBO's work, especially if your FBO caters to foreign students who have a fixed time to complete before flying home.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
BFH should be able to take his flight instructor with him. The new FBO might require that the instructor be checked out, and that the aircraft be rented by BFH, since most insurance policies read "The person renting the aircraft cannot profit monetarily from the flight", but that should be all.
BFH,
There was one thing I was thinking about that I should have mentioned in my first post to you. When you a learning to fly at an FBO where you work, you should expect to get bumped from your scheduled flights. The customers need to be taken care of first. That is just part of the way FBO's work, especially if your FBO caters to foreign students who have a fixed time to complete before flying home.
Take Care,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Sorry to hear your news BFH. I have the same problem although I am 21. I have a part share in a PA 28 at EGSA (8nm SWW of EGSH)and regularly get treated like s**t by the old guard there. They claim that they want to attract young people to the club but in reality I am a bit too young for them. They look at me like I am about to hot wire someones car whenever I turn up and have developed a nasty habit of blaming everything from aircraft being left out to the bad weather on me. It is not just me either, if friends come along with me they get treated like s**t. It is not my immagination because the woman you is head of the group that I fly with tells me this, she was one of the people who were against me joining the group at age 19 because I was so young, even though I had the 100 hours qualifying time. She also tells me now that I have to tiptoe around people there incase I upset anyone, why should I??? Lets not forget the age of the guys who were flying over Berlin and Dresden 60 years ago.
Anyway mate not to worry, not all airfields are like it. I work at EGSV and the guys there are great, the instructors are airline pilots and ex RAF guys. When we are at FL350 we can talk in a bit more detail about these T**TS and what they are doing now.
As for me I am selling the share in my aircraft as I am sick of that airfield and have the hours for my CPL. I am not bitter because unlike the guys at EGSA I am young, relatively attractive, have my whole life ahead of me and do not require Viagra.
LE.
[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: lone eagle ]</p>
Anyway mate not to worry, not all airfields are like it. I work at EGSV and the guys there are great, the instructors are airline pilots and ex RAF guys. When we are at FL350 we can talk in a bit more detail about these T**TS and what they are doing now.
As for me I am selling the share in my aircraft as I am sick of that airfield and have the hours for my CPL. I am not bitter because unlike the guys at EGSA I am young, relatively attractive, have my whole life ahead of me and do not require Viagra.
LE.
[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: lone eagle ]</p>
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BFH, I like you am a young pilot (19, and completed my ppl in the beginning of September this year. Although with my training I did not have much the same problem as you (mostly I think because I was doing it with a lot of potential cadets from the RAF... as was I. so there were lots of young piolts around.....). However we would always get the odd older person who would come past and say something in a mocking way as if we knew nothing and shouldn't be there at all because we were just "boys" and not to mention the females that were on the courses....(they sometimes got worse stuff because "women shouldn’t be flying planes...").
The honest truth is that you have to take it with a pinch of salt, some may be p****d off because they actually know that some of us have the potential to do so much more than they were able to when they were young.... possibly due to the fact that its easier and cheaper and more available to younger people like us now.
However, there were a few nice old chaps that did come over to us and chat about how we got there and how great it was that we had the chance etc, to pursue this opportunity, because lets face it without people like us, the aviation industry might eventually find itself with too many pilots to retire and not enough new people to join etc.
If I were you, from the sounds of things there I would move to another flying school if you could, thing is if you don’t enjoy it, then you should move, it must be enjoyable! I loved every minute of doing mine, which makes a big difference when it comes to the motivation etc for exams and stuff like that.
It happens everywhere though to certain degrees, I’ve been to a gliding club before and not been very welcome because I was 18 and they were mostly 60+yrs old..... until I met with one of the younger members who was...probably 35ish. The one thing he said to me is to just ignore them, the main reason they were cranky is because many of them had taken hours and hours of flight to get the hang of gliding and I hadn't. They had soloed at lets say their 50 or 60th launch, where the average for a normal pilot was say 40, and I had done it in 23 (don't get me wrong, I'm not here to brag, just illustrating a point). Because I happened to be good at it, that made me "the one who shouldn't really be there coz I was too young!" One other fact is that the younger you are to a certain extent the more likely you are to grab the hang of flying...as with so many other things in life, which can p**s a few older people off, because they wish they could do it to. Not to say that all older people are going to take longer to get the hang of it.... because that’s not strictly true either, lets just say that we sometimes have the advantage.
So don't bother with the ones that get you down, ignore them, maybe change school. Also as ShyTorque mentioned speak to your instructor and see what he has to say about it and if there is anything he can do. Especially at these times, schools should be encouraging people not discouraging them, it's unprofessional and bad for business.
Good luck though and let us know how u get on...
Best regards,
RAF TopGun <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
[ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: RAF TopGun ]</p>
The honest truth is that you have to take it with a pinch of salt, some may be p****d off because they actually know that some of us have the potential to do so much more than they were able to when they were young.... possibly due to the fact that its easier and cheaper and more available to younger people like us now.
However, there were a few nice old chaps that did come over to us and chat about how we got there and how great it was that we had the chance etc, to pursue this opportunity, because lets face it without people like us, the aviation industry might eventually find itself with too many pilots to retire and not enough new people to join etc.
If I were you, from the sounds of things there I would move to another flying school if you could, thing is if you don’t enjoy it, then you should move, it must be enjoyable! I loved every minute of doing mine, which makes a big difference when it comes to the motivation etc for exams and stuff like that.
It happens everywhere though to certain degrees, I’ve been to a gliding club before and not been very welcome because I was 18 and they were mostly 60+yrs old..... until I met with one of the younger members who was...probably 35ish. The one thing he said to me is to just ignore them, the main reason they were cranky is because many of them had taken hours and hours of flight to get the hang of gliding and I hadn't. They had soloed at lets say their 50 or 60th launch, where the average for a normal pilot was say 40, and I had done it in 23 (don't get me wrong, I'm not here to brag, just illustrating a point). Because I happened to be good at it, that made me "the one who shouldn't really be there coz I was too young!" One other fact is that the younger you are to a certain extent the more likely you are to grab the hang of flying...as with so many other things in life, which can p**s a few older people off, because they wish they could do it to. Not to say that all older people are going to take longer to get the hang of it.... because that’s not strictly true either, lets just say that we sometimes have the advantage.
So don't bother with the ones that get you down, ignore them, maybe change school. Also as ShyTorque mentioned speak to your instructor and see what he has to say about it and if there is anything he can do. Especially at these times, schools should be encouraging people not discouraging them, it's unprofessional and bad for business.
Good luck though and let us know how u get on...
Best regards,
RAF TopGun
<img src="cool.gif" border="0"> [ 05 January 2002: Message edited by: RAF TopGun ]</p>
I sympathise and understand, I'm in my thirties now but have been working full time in aviation (either as an engineer or pilot) since I was 18. Through a combination of luck and talent I was working at a pretty high level in aviation companies from about 20 - and many older people did not appreciate that.
There are a lot of people who equate age with status, always have been, and always will be. I've suffered a lot of them and still see it occasionally now from people old enough to be my father (or mother, it's not a particularly male failing) who feel that this negates the fact that they work for me, not the other way around.
Sadly, you'll find yourself working for or alongside people with this sort of infantile behaviour. Much as one would like to, just saying "sod them", doesn't actually get you anywhere.
If you are young, keen, and have ability, you have the potential to beat them at their own game. Learn every lesson well, and prove it. Act with maturity, and don't turn up looking like THEIR image of a scruffy teenager. If they try to impress you with their greater experience or knowledge, read up on it and prove quietly that you can learn what they know. Don't publically lose your rag with them (unless you're in the position of somebody like WWW anyway, but even then do it with care).
And, when, eventually you succeed and like myself or WWW find yourself in charge, remember what it was like when you were starting and treat the next generation with the courtesy you'd like now.
G
Oh yes, having worked in both environments, take my word for it, Engineers are much much worse than pilots in this respect. This may be part of your problem if it is a place full of technicians who got there through longevity rather than ability.
There are a lot of people who equate age with status, always have been, and always will be. I've suffered a lot of them and still see it occasionally now from people old enough to be my father (or mother, it's not a particularly male failing) who feel that this negates the fact that they work for me, not the other way around.
Sadly, you'll find yourself working for or alongside people with this sort of infantile behaviour. Much as one would like to, just saying "sod them", doesn't actually get you anywhere.
If you are young, keen, and have ability, you have the potential to beat them at their own game. Learn every lesson well, and prove it. Act with maturity, and don't turn up looking like THEIR image of a scruffy teenager. If they try to impress you with their greater experience or knowledge, read up on it and prove quietly that you can learn what they know. Don't publically lose your rag with them (unless you're in the position of somebody like WWW anyway, but even then do it with care).
And, when, eventually you succeed and like myself or WWW find yourself in charge, remember what it was like when you were starting and treat the next generation with the courtesy you'd like now.
G
Oh yes, having worked in both environments, take my word for it, Engineers are much much worse than pilots in this respect. This may be part of your problem if it is a place full of technicians who got there through longevity rather than ability.
Thread Starter
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Thank you all for your input on the topic. I was talking to my father on the phone the other day (he's a pilot) and he was telling me pretty much the same as all of you. I take it all into consideration.
Thanks a lot.
Thanks a lot.
