US PPL Visa advice needed
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US PPL Visa advice needed
I am travelling to Florida to do my long-awaited PPL in April next year. This has been booked for months, and I intend to be there for four weeks in total.
Over the last few months I have heard nightmare stories about people being refused entry to the US by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, even for PPL courses. I recognise that for commercial training courses a J1/M1 visa is required, but my understanding is that British nationals can enter the US for up to 90 days (and do a PPL to boot) without any visa requirement.
It appears (from some genuine cases I've heard of) that some INS officials are unsure of the rules at some US gateway airports. My serious concern therefore is being turned away at Atlanta, on route to Orlando, simply because I own up to being there for flying training as opposed to just a holiday. One could simply say "I'm here to see Disneyworld" but I think that after the recent tragic events over there, if someone were to turn up with a bag full of flying manuals and flight computer etc, they'd be somewhat reluctant to believe that I'm only interested in seeing a big-eared mouse and his friends at WDW.
So, some advice please - either from those who have been / are in the same situation, or better still from those guys who are working at flying schools out in Florida right now.
What is the situation re Visas? Is it advisable to get one regardless of whether it is strictly required or not? If so, can you advise how I go about doing this? Are there any moves afoot to change the rules (which would be understandable) regarding visa requirements?
I understand that there have been VFR restrictions in place in Florida but that these have been lifted, and I'm sure things will be back to something approaching 'normality' by April 2002. We owe it to the memory of those lost on Sept. 11th to show the world that we will never sacrifice our freedom to enjoy our way of life.
I am fortunate to have enough time to sort out a visa if one is required but I am fairly sure that the US embassy here in the UK are a little too busy with more important issues to be able to answer my questions right now, and their website is far from conclusive.
Any help and advice appreciated.
Thanks, and regards, Alan.
Over the last few months I have heard nightmare stories about people being refused entry to the US by the Immigration and Naturalization Service, even for PPL courses. I recognise that for commercial training courses a J1/M1 visa is required, but my understanding is that British nationals can enter the US for up to 90 days (and do a PPL to boot) without any visa requirement.
It appears (from some genuine cases I've heard of) that some INS officials are unsure of the rules at some US gateway airports. My serious concern therefore is being turned away at Atlanta, on route to Orlando, simply because I own up to being there for flying training as opposed to just a holiday. One could simply say "I'm here to see Disneyworld" but I think that after the recent tragic events over there, if someone were to turn up with a bag full of flying manuals and flight computer etc, they'd be somewhat reluctant to believe that I'm only interested in seeing a big-eared mouse and his friends at WDW.
So, some advice please - either from those who have been / are in the same situation, or better still from those guys who are working at flying schools out in Florida right now.
What is the situation re Visas? Is it advisable to get one regardless of whether it is strictly required or not? If so, can you advise how I go about doing this? Are there any moves afoot to change the rules (which would be understandable) regarding visa requirements?
I understand that there have been VFR restrictions in place in Florida but that these have been lifted, and I'm sure things will be back to something approaching 'normality' by April 2002. We owe it to the memory of those lost on Sept. 11th to show the world that we will never sacrifice our freedom to enjoy our way of life.
I am fortunate to have enough time to sort out a visa if one is required but I am fairly sure that the US embassy here in the UK are a little too busy with more important issues to be able to answer my questions right now, and their website is far from conclusive.
Any help and advice appreciated.
Thanks, and regards, Alan.
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Alan
You are correct in thinking that you can enter the US on the 90 days visa waiver, however this is not for the purpose of flight training merely holiday.
On a PPL course you are required to be on a minimum of a M1 visa as you will be completing more than 18 hours per week (minimum to be considered on a training course). Any accredited school can offer this and it is merely a matter of paperwork.
I suggest that you do go on this visa as only last week a friend was not even allowed to board at Gatwick as he did not have an M1 Visa for training.
You may look at the following web page for all the workings of the visa requirement and actions required.
http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web...iv/student.htm
Good luck with your flight training!
You are correct in thinking that you can enter the US on the 90 days visa waiver, however this is not for the purpose of flight training merely holiday.
On a PPL course you are required to be on a minimum of a M1 visa as you will be completing more than 18 hours per week (minimum to be considered on a training course). Any accredited school can offer this and it is merely a matter of paperwork.
I suggest that you do go on this visa as only last week a friend was not even allowed to board at Gatwick as he did not have an M1 Visa for training.
You may look at the following web page for all the workings of the visa requirement and actions required.
http://www.usembassy.org.uk/cons_web...iv/student.htm
Good luck with your flight training!
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I did look into this and confirmed that the visa story is an old one used, by UK flying clubs and US FAA part 141 schools, to frighten people off JAA training in the US. You do NOT need a visa for a vacation during which you are recreational flying (includes JAA PPL course)in the US unless you are doing FAA accredited training- isn't that unlikely or stupid if you are a Brit?
You are eligible for a visa waiver, just like any other European tourist, but the decision is always that of the officer at the port of entry. Is it any surprise that silly sods, who say they are student pilots or give the impression that they might want to work in the U.S., have created a problem for themselves, when there isn't one?
You are eligible for a visa waiver, just like any other European tourist, but the decision is always that of the officer at the port of entry. Is it any surprise that silly sods, who say they are student pilots or give the impression that they might want to work in the U.S., have created a problem for themselves, when there isn't one?
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Having worked for American Airlines for a number of years, and working closely with immigration, I would strongly recommend that you obtain a Student Visa. If you are embarking on a course of study, then to go into the US on a recreational visa could possibly cause you problems. I say possibly, but it is worth considering the implications. If there is an anomaly in your visa, and IF you get deported, then re-entering the US may be difficult in the future. It is a bit of hassle getting the bit of required paper. But it is worth it - as is travel insurance! (With additional premium paid to cover flying GA aircraft as Pilot) It is much better to do this, and then, once you have the prized PPL, go and hours build. For this you require NO visa, as a flying holiday does not constitute a course of study.
Hope that helps.
Tailwinds
Hope that helps.
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I went to the US in June this year to get my PPL. I was in the same situation as yourself regarding a visa, I posted on here and received alot of advice.
I decided to take the risk and skip getting a visa. I admitted to the custom chap that I was there to fly and he was very happy to let me in to the US.
With the current/future increased scrutiny I would not take the same risk now. It's a long way back if you are not allowed in & a massive hassle if you have arranged annual leave. The threat of future restrictions of entry would also be a major concern.
The consequences are the same it's the chances of getting caught that have increased.
Best regards
I decided to take the risk and skip getting a visa. I admitted to the custom chap that I was there to fly and he was very happy to let me in to the US.
With the current/future increased scrutiny I would not take the same risk now. It's a long way back if you are not allowed in & a massive hassle if you have arranged annual leave. The threat of future restrictions of entry would also be a major concern.
The consequences are the same it's the chances of getting caught that have increased.
Best regards
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After more foolish frighteners, the conclusion is as above- 'a flying holiday does not constitute a course of study'.
Recreational flying is like diving or golf, courses and lessons, and does not require a visa, unless you are at Part 141 FAA accredited commercial training places (which you wouldn't, or shouldn't, be for JAA PPL purposes).
Why this negative attitude in UK that everything to do with private flying is complicated, delayed, difficult, expensive etc? It is not only because of our amateurish clubs, bad weather, cost of fuel, landing fees, VAT etc. and is it any surprise that so many people go to learn and fly in the US where the aviation attitude is helpful and positive?
Recreational flying is like diving or golf, courses and lessons, and does not require a visa, unless you are at Part 141 FAA accredited commercial training places (which you wouldn't, or shouldn't, be for JAA PPL purposes).
Why this negative attitude in UK that everything to do with private flying is complicated, delayed, difficult, expensive etc? It is not only because of our amateurish clubs, bad weather, cost of fuel, landing fees, VAT etc. and is it any surprise that so many people go to learn and fly in the US where the aviation attitude is helpful and positive?
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Query
An M1 visa is required for anyone who is studying whether that is a flight training course or knitting course! If you are studying and taking lessons it is the same thing and has nothing to do with regulations that you are following. The Embassy advised that the only time you do not need a Visa for flying is recreational flying and therefore hourbuilding could be construed as this.
If you are a lawyer then please show me where you read into that the visa is not required. I have already listed the US Embassy web page for you to read so you know where I get my information from!
If this is pot luck then I suggest that you don't go advising unless you have something concrete. Yes some students can lie their way into the country but is this the way we should treat the process in light of the recent events. Why are you so against doing what is right in this day of terrorism. I got a visa myself to train in the US and it was so simple nobody could have a problem with it.
Therefore I ask you the question I asked before to which you did not respond "Do you own a flight school in the US that does not offer the Visa?"
An M1 visa is required for anyone who is studying whether that is a flight training course or knitting course! If you are studying and taking lessons it is the same thing and has nothing to do with regulations that you are following. The Embassy advised that the only time you do not need a Visa for flying is recreational flying and therefore hourbuilding could be construed as this.
If you are a lawyer then please show me where you read into that the visa is not required. I have already listed the US Embassy web page for you to read so you know where I get my information from!
If this is pot luck then I suggest that you don't go advising unless you have something concrete. Yes some students can lie their way into the country but is this the way we should treat the process in light of the recent events. Why are you so against doing what is right in this day of terrorism. I got a visa myself to train in the US and it was so simple nobody could have a problem with it.
Therefore I ask you the question I asked before to which you did not respond "Do you own a flight school in the US that does not offer the Visa?"
The Oracle
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QUERY,
You know exactly who I am. You know I own a JAA Flight School in the Florida. You know I offer the M-1 Visa to my students. You know that I have been advising students in this Forum for several months. You also know I give information on programs that will assist them, even when I do NOT offer the program myself.
Due to the current conditions in the U.S., if you are going to fly here, get a visa. The immigration people that will greet you at the airport know nothing about flying. They have the power to let you in or send you back home. Would you want to argue with an immigration officer, who knows nothing about aviation? The difference is between what you will be doing and what the law will allow you to do?
This is not the world of September 10, 2001. During this time Immigration will lean on the side of caution. If they are not sure, you are going to be going back home. In six months it should settle down, but right now, get a Visa. Don't chance it. One of my students tried this 'non visa' method and was not allowed to travel until he had a visa.
I will post a thread this evening with all the blanks in the M-1 Visa, so people can see what is involved.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
You know exactly who I am. You know I own a JAA Flight School in the Florida. You know I offer the M-1 Visa to my students. You know that I have been advising students in this Forum for several months. You also know I give information on programs that will assist them, even when I do NOT offer the program myself.
Due to the current conditions in the U.S., if you are going to fly here, get a visa. The immigration people that will greet you at the airport know nothing about flying. They have the power to let you in or send you back home. Would you want to argue with an immigration officer, who knows nothing about aviation? The difference is between what you will be doing and what the law will allow you to do?
This is not the world of September 10, 2001. During this time Immigration will lean on the side of caution. If they are not sure, you are going to be going back home. In six months it should settle down, but right now, get a Visa. Don't chance it. One of my students tried this 'non visa' method and was not allowed to travel until he had a visa.
I will post a thread this evening with all the blanks in the M-1 Visa, so people can see what is involved.
Happy Flying,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Query...I have you sussed now...it's no good just changing your registered name on pprune - if you wish to stay anon. you should also change the way you say things (and what you say)...and then try to wrap the postings in at the same time as using the outgoing name.
How's that school going up there near Daytona? Ask Henri or Herniair, they are surely good friends of yours.
Anyway...the visa question...I have just cut the following from the AOPA web site...
<<Student background check proposed
The Senate will also begin debate today on aviation security legislation. AOPA has learned that Senator Bill Nelson of Florida will offer a floor amendment requiring a background check for all current and future students enrolled in flight training. AOPA has offered to work with Senator Nelson on proposals to enhance the procedures of the agencies that allowed terrorists to enter the country and enroll in flight training. AOPA reiterated that the overwhelming majority of flight students are law-abiding U.S. citizens who have done nothing to deserve this treatment.>>
Florida Senator. Trying to prove his worth. Do you really think they'll go through with something like this and yet not care about people having a visa?
Headline news tonight is that a crazed passenger attacked the driver of a Greyhound bus as it drove through Tennessee. Slashed the drivers throat with a "razor blade or box cutter" and caused the bus to crash - killing six people. The second line of the headline is that the guy entered the USA two years ago - on a one month visa.
Do you really think they are going to ignore the visa question??
How's that school going up there near Daytona? Ask Henri or Herniair, they are surely good friends of yours.
Anyway...the visa question...I have just cut the following from the AOPA web site...
<<Student background check proposed
The Senate will also begin debate today on aviation security legislation. AOPA has learned that Senator Bill Nelson of Florida will offer a floor amendment requiring a background check for all current and future students enrolled in flight training. AOPA has offered to work with Senator Nelson on proposals to enhance the procedures of the agencies that allowed terrorists to enter the country and enroll in flight training. AOPA reiterated that the overwhelming majority of flight students are law-abiding U.S. citizens who have done nothing to deserve this treatment.>>
Florida Senator. Trying to prove his worth. Do you really think they'll go through with something like this and yet not care about people having a visa?
Headline news tonight is that a crazed passenger attacked the driver of a Greyhound bus as it drove through Tennessee. Slashed the drivers throat with a "razor blade or box cutter" and caused the bus to crash - killing six people. The second line of the headline is that the guy entered the USA two years ago - on a one month visa.
Do you really think they are going to ignore the visa question??
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Folks -
Thanks for your posts and your advice. I have e-mailed the FTO in Orlando to ask for the I20-M form, to get the visa balling rolling, so to speak.
Particular thanks to 'Capt Richard Gentil' and 'Facts not Fiction Please' - very helpful.
Richard - your idea of posting the M1 details on this site is excellent - please do this as it will help me no end, and probably many others, to understand what is involved.
I dare not take the risk of being turned away from the US as my wife and in-laws are travelling with me, for a holiday whilst I fly. Saving for the course has taken quite some time, and I have my head in the Jeremy Pratt books most evenings (to my wife's consternation) so I would be gutted to be turned away upon arrival, as you can imagine.
Is it a simple process to get the M1 visa?
And if anyone else has done a 3/4 week PPL course and has any advice, please let me know!
Thanks guys (and gals).
Alan.
Thanks for your posts and your advice. I have e-mailed the FTO in Orlando to ask for the I20-M form, to get the visa balling rolling, so to speak.
Particular thanks to 'Capt Richard Gentil' and 'Facts not Fiction Please' - very helpful.
Richard - your idea of posting the M1 details on this site is excellent - please do this as it will help me no end, and probably many others, to understand what is involved.
I dare not take the risk of being turned away from the US as my wife and in-laws are travelling with me, for a holiday whilst I fly. Saving for the course has taken quite some time, and I have my head in the Jeremy Pratt books most evenings (to my wife's consternation) so I would be gutted to be turned away upon arrival, as you can imagine.
Is it a simple process to get the M1 visa?
And if anyone else has done a 3/4 week PPL course and has any advice, please let me know!
Thanks guys (and gals).
Alan.
The Oracle
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big.al,
Glad to help. The process for getting the M-1 is straight forward and you will not have much trouble getting it.
You mentioned saving up your money to do the PPL course. I would like to suggest that you give yourself 4 weeks for the course instead of 3. If you do, you will have a greater chance of completing. We ask our students to plan for 4 weeks. This way there is less pressure on you, especially with the distractions of having the extended family with you.
If you will be training in Orlando, check with the school to see how they are working under the Class B Airspace. There are special restrictions for operating under Class B Airspace due to Sept. 11 Attacks. One of the restrictions being no student solo flights in or under Class B Airspace which is the airspace of Orlando. I am sure that they have organized ways around this restriction.
Good Luck,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
Glad to help. The process for getting the M-1 is straight forward and you will not have much trouble getting it.
You mentioned saving up your money to do the PPL course. I would like to suggest that you give yourself 4 weeks for the course instead of 3. If you do, you will have a greater chance of completing. We ask our students to plan for 4 weeks. This way there is less pressure on you, especially with the distractions of having the extended family with you.
If you will be training in Orlando, check with the school to see how they are working under the Class B Airspace. There are special restrictions for operating under Class B Airspace due to Sept. 11 Attacks. One of the restrictions being no student solo flights in or under Class B Airspace which is the airspace of Orlando. I am sure that they have organized ways around this restriction.
Good Luck,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
The Oracle
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Alan,
I do not know if you saw the thread, I posted the M-1 visa information last night. Click here to View.
Night,
Richard
I do not know if you saw the thread, I posted the M-1 visa information last night. Click here to View.
Night,
Richard
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Capn Naples said
If you will be training in Orlando, check with the school to see how they are working under the Class B Airspace. There are special restrictions for operating under Class B Airspace due to Sept. 11 Attacks. One of the restrictions being no student solo flights in or under Class B Airspace which is the airspace of Orlando. I am sure that they have organized ways around this restriction.
Nah, this NOTAM has been out a few days now.
FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS (SEE DEFINITION) WITHIN "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE", EXCEPT THE BOSTON "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE" AREA AND EXCEPT FOR OPERATIONS WITHIN THE NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON DC TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTION AREAS, VFR FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS AND SUPERVISED STUDENT SOLO OPERATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED FOR SINGLE AND MULTI-ENGINE NON-TURBOJET POWERED, NON-POWERED, AND ROTOR DRIVEN PISTON POWERED AIRCRAFT WITH A MAXIMUM CERTIFICATED TAKEOFF GROSS WEIGHT OF 6000 POUNDS OR LESS.
I just LUV it when I catch the instructors out
especially the gimmes.
If you will be training in Orlando, check with the school to see how they are working under the Class B Airspace. There are special restrictions for operating under Class B Airspace due to Sept. 11 Attacks. One of the restrictions being no student solo flights in or under Class B Airspace which is the airspace of Orlando. I am sure that they have organized ways around this restriction.
Nah, this NOTAM has been out a few days now.
FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS (SEE DEFINITION) WITHIN "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE", EXCEPT THE BOSTON "ENHANCED CLASS B AIRSPACE" AREA AND EXCEPT FOR OPERATIONS WITHIN THE NEW YORK AND WASHINGTON DC TEMPORARY FLIGHT RESTRICTION AREAS, VFR FLIGHT TRAINING OPERATIONS AND SUPERVISED STUDENT SOLO OPERATIONS ARE AUTHORIZED FOR SINGLE AND MULTI-ENGINE NON-TURBOJET POWERED, NON-POWERED, AND ROTOR DRIVEN PISTON POWERED AIRCRAFT WITH A MAXIMUM CERTIFICATED TAKEOFF GROSS WEIGHT OF 6000 POUNDS OR LESS.
I just LUV it when I catch the instructors out
especially the gimmes.
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Slim - hate to spoil your smart a**e day, but I'm not convinced that you have caught him out - I too am under the impression (having spoken to the FAA) that student solo is not allowed at Orlando...their airspace is not purely "enhanced" class B. They also have some real class B.......and I did read recently that solo students are not allowed in the area.
The Oracle
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slim_slag,
This Forum is not a contest to prove other people wrong, its to help wannabies.
Gone West is correct, there is a restriction on solo flights in Orlando.
Sincerely,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
This Forum is not a contest to prove other people wrong, its to help wannabies.
Gone West is correct, there is a restriction on solo flights in Orlando.
Sincerely,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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GoneWest..
Student solo is now and has always (well, apart from the few weeks after Sep 11th) been permitted in 'real' class B. The student pilot requires specific training and an endorsement from his CFI (FAR 61.95), just like he does to solo.
Capn Naples....
I too am not here to 'prove other people wrong'. If incorrect information is posted to somebody just about to set out across the Atlantic with thousands of pounds in his wallet, it is important he gets the correct facts. The facts are that student solo is permitted under supervision in enhanced class B. As class B is a subset of ECB it is permitted in both (with the proviso as above).
Of course you need a clearance to operate in class B, and that can be denyed by ATC at any time. They may well not authorize student flight operations in class B, as they always could. However, the NOTAM explicity permits it.
Its important for everybody flying the USA right now (as always of course) to check the NOTAMS, especially those claiming to teach. There is a NOTAM out there which states that deadly force can be used if you are even in the 'close proximity' to restricted area.
Anyway to both of you, I used the character for good reason. If I had wanted to be a smart ass I wouldn't have bothered. Remember that even instructors learn off their students, and we should not be so arrogant to think otherwise.
Anybody who wants the real picture should check official sources of NOTAMS and not the rumours, rantings and ramblings found on pprune
PS You don't need an M1 visa to learn to fly in the US at your local part 61 school - but that would be another thread. Or would it
[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
Student solo is now and has always (well, apart from the few weeks after Sep 11th) been permitted in 'real' class B. The student pilot requires specific training and an endorsement from his CFI (FAR 61.95), just like he does to solo.
Capn Naples....
I too am not here to 'prove other people wrong'. If incorrect information is posted to somebody just about to set out across the Atlantic with thousands of pounds in his wallet, it is important he gets the correct facts. The facts are that student solo is permitted under supervision in enhanced class B. As class B is a subset of ECB it is permitted in both (with the proviso as above).
Of course you need a clearance to operate in class B, and that can be denyed by ATC at any time. They may well not authorize student flight operations in class B, as they always could. However, the NOTAM explicity permits it.
Its important for everybody flying the USA right now (as always of course) to check the NOTAMS, especially those claiming to teach. There is a NOTAM out there which states that deadly force can be used if you are even in the 'close proximity' to restricted area.
Anyway to both of you, I used the
character for good reason. If I had wanted to be a smart ass I wouldn't have bothered. Remember that even instructors learn off their students, and we should not be so arrogant to think otherwise. Anybody who wants the real picture should check official sources of NOTAMS and not the rumours, rantings and ramblings found on pprune
PS You don't need an M1 visa to learn to fly in the US at your local part 61 school - but that would be another thread. Or would it
[ 05 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
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OK,
I've made a phone call to the FSDO handling Orlando.
They initially interpreted the NOTAM to mean that supervised solo flight within ECB meant flight in the traffic pattern with the CFI monitoring the radio.
They obviously realised this intepretation was bollocks (as it is, the NOTAM did not specify pattern work or anything like this at all) and they now accept that supervised solo means what it always did.
Though please check yourself of course
Cheers
I've made a phone call to the FSDO handling Orlando.
They initially interpreted the NOTAM to mean that supervised solo flight within ECB meant flight in the traffic pattern with the CFI monitoring the radio.
They obviously realised this intepretation was bollocks (as it is, the NOTAM did not specify pattern work or anything like this at all) and they now accept that supervised solo means what it always did.
Though please check yourself of course
Cheers
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Hey Slim-Slag
I don't think anyone has a problem with being corrected, but it could be done in a respectful manner!!
As for the Visas, I suggest that you either call the US Embassy in london or take a look at the web page! I have a friend that was turned around for exactly what you said you could do!!!
Take a look at: http://www.us-immigration.org/visa_vistourist.htm
It plainly states is you are to study that you need another Visa - prove me wrong and I will be happy to rescind my stance!
I don't think anyone has a problem with being corrected, but it could be done in a respectful manner!!
As for the Visas, I suggest that you either call the US Embassy in london or take a look at the web page! I have a friend that was turned around for exactly what you said you could do!!!
Take a look at: http://www.us-immigration.org/visa_vistourist.htm
It plainly states is you are to study that you need another Visa - prove me wrong and I will be happy to rescind my stance!