US PPL Visa advice needed
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What's a student?
http://www.ins.gov/graphics/glossary4.htm#S
Student - As a nonimmigrant class of admission, an alien coming temporarily to the United States to pursue a full course of study in an approved program in either an academic (college, university, seminary, conservatory, academic high school, elementary school, other institution, or language training program) or a vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution.
Part 61 flight schools do not fit into any of the above. Don't believe what people who run 'approved' schools tell you, it's in their interest to scare foreign students into coming to them.
Now the INS Inspector can deny entry to anybody coming into the US. Your buddy must have said the wrong things to a guy who didn't fully understand the rules, but the INS inspector was quite within his rights to refuse entry.
INS inspectors get it wrong you know. The US embassy in London will also err on the side of caution, which is sensible for them to do. Have you ever got off the phone with somebody who obstinately insists on giving you the 'safe' answer, when you know things in practice work differently? What if the Embassy tells you to go over on a visa waiver and the INS inspector refuses entry at his whim, you are going to be pissed and that is not what the embassy wants.
Don't get me wrong. If you at all worried then you should get the M1 visa and tie yourself to a specific school. Its not neccessary though in US immigration law if you can enter under the visa waiver scheme, which is my point.
I am not a US immigration attorney and not licenced to practice law, I got this information from my brother who is. He has done work for US flight schools and knows the law and a lot of INS guys.
Regards
http://www.ins.gov/graphics/glossary4.htm#S
Student - As a nonimmigrant class of admission, an alien coming temporarily to the United States to pursue a full course of study in an approved program in either an academic (college, university, seminary, conservatory, academic high school, elementary school, other institution, or language training program) or a vocational or other recognized nonacademic institution.
Part 61 flight schools do not fit into any of the above. Don't believe what people who run 'approved' schools tell you, it's in their interest to scare foreign students into coming to them.
Now the INS Inspector can deny entry to anybody coming into the US. Your buddy must have said the wrong things to a guy who didn't fully understand the rules, but the INS inspector was quite within his rights to refuse entry.
INS inspectors get it wrong you know. The US embassy in London will also err on the side of caution, which is sensible for them to do. Have you ever got off the phone with somebody who obstinately insists on giving you the 'safe' answer, when you know things in practice work differently? What if the Embassy tells you to go over on a visa waiver and the INS inspector refuses entry at his whim, you are going to be pissed and that is not what the embassy wants.
Don't get me wrong. If you at all worried then you should get the M1 visa and tie yourself to a specific school. Its not neccessary though in US immigration law if you can enter under the visa waiver scheme, which is my point.
I am not a US immigration attorney and not licenced to practice law, I got this information from my brother who is. He has done work for US flight schools and knows the law and a lot of INS guys.
Regards
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Hmmmmm......
Slim-Slag:
I think you answered my question!
The JAA PPL needs to be completed at an approved school by the CAA - approved school. They then approve the course of study ie the AOPA syllabus - approved course.
On the approved course you follow a syllabus with Instructors in ground school and flight training.
Does this not follow as you quoted:
"...in an approved program in either an academic (college, university, seminary, conservatory, academic high school, elementary school, other institution..."
Therefore being a student you need a Visa!
I venture to guess that all wannabees will make up their own mind but in my experience getting a visa, and my friend who just got turned around for not having a visa, I would personally suggest to all Wannabees:
"Get a Visa to cover yourself - it is so easy to get and you will be covering all bases leaving nothing to chance. .."
Somebody just posted the form I think but can't find the thread at the mo.
Slim-Slag:
I think you answered my question!
The JAA PPL needs to be completed at an approved school by the CAA - approved school. They then approve the course of study ie the AOPA syllabus - approved course.
On the approved course you follow a syllabus with Instructors in ground school and flight training.
Does this not follow as you quoted:
"...in an approved program in either an academic (college, university, seminary, conservatory, academic high school, elementary school, other institution..."
Therefore being a student you need a Visa!
I venture to guess that all wannabees will make up their own mind but in my experience getting a visa, and my friend who just got turned around for not having a visa, I would personally suggest to all Wannabees:
"Get a Visa to cover yourself - it is so easy to get and you will be covering all bases leaving nothing to chance. .."
Somebody just posted the form I think but can't find the thread at the mo.
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Hmmmmm......
Slim-Slag:
I think you answered my question!
Now then Facts, show some respect
I do not think I answered your question at all.
The JAA PPL needs to be completed at an approved school by the CAA - approved school. They then approve the course of study ie the AOPA syllabus - approved course.
On the approved course you follow a syllabus with Instructors in ground school and flight training.
Nowhere was JAA PPL mentioned in this thread. Personally I would not come to the US to do a JAA PPL. I would do the FAA PP-ASEL, then time build here until you get the required 75 hours or so, go home and convert.
Advantages of this are
1) More choice of flight schools. Probably cheaper and you can easily move if you don't like the setup at the first one. Shop Around.
2) You get to 75 hours at less cost. You are going to get to 75 hours at some stage so may as well do it cheaply.
3) The experience you get here is pretty good. Having flown GA quite a bit in both countries, I would rate US > UK. Yikes, new thread!!!!!!
4) More experienced when you do your JAA PPL. This can only be a good thing. Obviously you will need to be retrained in new 'bad habits' but that's all extra dual and dual is always a good thing, IMO.
So, I do not think you should/could assume that everybody coming to the US is here to do the JAA. I would certainly advise against it.
Of course I would like to see people support flight schools back in the UK, they sorely need our money, but it's their money and they can spend it how you like.
Also, I doubt that the INS or US Goverment cares an iota about the CAA approval requirements. The flight school is either approved in the US system or not, it would be quite possible for a flight school to be 'UK' approved and not 'US' approved, though I don't see the point of not being US approved in this case.
Do you think I need a visa to go on a golf or tennis course, go to a medical conference where I will learn stuff? etc etc What is the spirit of the visa waiver scheme? Am I allowed to read reference books in the US if they are related to (say) nuclear physics? Can I learn how to ski?
If you come here primarily as a tourist you do not need a visa for incidental study as long as it is recreational.
When you get into the US don't say "I'm here to become a commercial pilot", say "I'm here on holiday but I've always fancied doing some flying lessons and I've got $10k in my pocket to give to the local flight school"
You get the drift?
The INS inspector will have a fit on the former, and drag you past the desk into the country on the latter. Remember, the INS inspector doesn't even have to let you into the coutry WITH a valid M1 visa.
What the INS guys is asking himself when you show up drunk and looking like crap after a delightful longhaul flight in World Traveller is..
1) Is this guy going to go home within 90 days?
2) Is this guy going to become a public charge? Break the law and go to jail?
3) Is this guy going to spend loadsamoney?
4) Is this guy going to put a Yank out of work?
That's all they really care about. They don't give too much of a toss about the Brits, thats why we are on the Visa Waiver scheme. Now if you were an Iraqi........
I agree entirely that if you are at all in doubt, get the visa. I said that earlier too. Just make sure you choose the flight school and have flown with the instructor in advance. Pretty hard to do I'd say from your computer terminal desk in Croyden.
What you do not want to do is get an M1 visa for "xyz flying school", find out they suck, so ****** off down the road to the really cool part 61 school. That would put you in violation of your US admission terms, and if the INS found out they would rip your goolies off. You would not find it easy to enter the US after that.
All in my opinion of course , which I am sure some here already consider worthless Me no lawyer!
Regards
[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag because I got JAA/FAA/CAA totally mixed up. We need a single authority, preferabley FAA and I also got another smart-ass commment in too Ho Ho!)
]
[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
Slim-Slag:
I think you answered my question!
Now then Facts, show some respect
I do not think I answered your question at all.
The JAA PPL needs to be completed at an approved school by the CAA - approved school. They then approve the course of study ie the AOPA syllabus - approved course.
On the approved course you follow a syllabus with Instructors in ground school and flight training.
Nowhere was JAA PPL mentioned in this thread. Personally I would not come to the US to do a JAA PPL. I would do the FAA PP-ASEL, then time build here until you get the required 75 hours or so, go home and convert.
Advantages of this are
1) More choice of flight schools. Probably cheaper and you can easily move if you don't like the setup at the first one. Shop Around.
2) You get to 75 hours at less cost. You are going to get to 75 hours at some stage so may as well do it cheaply.
3) The experience you get here is pretty good. Having flown GA quite a bit in both countries, I would rate US > UK. Yikes, new thread!!!!!!
4) More experienced when you do your JAA PPL. This can only be a good thing. Obviously you will need to be retrained in new 'bad habits'
but that's all extra dual and dual is always a good thing, IMO.So, I do not think you should/could assume that everybody coming to the US is here to do the JAA. I would certainly advise against it.
Of course I would like to see people support flight schools back in the UK, they sorely need our money, but it's their money and they can spend it how you like.
Also, I doubt that the INS or US Goverment cares an iota about the CAA approval requirements. The flight school is either approved in the US system or not, it would be quite possible for a flight school to be 'UK' approved and not 'US' approved, though I don't see the point of not being US approved in this case.
Do you think I need a visa to go on a golf or tennis course, go to a medical conference where I will learn stuff? etc etc What is the spirit of the visa waiver scheme? Am I allowed to read reference books in the US if they are related to (say) nuclear physics? Can I learn how to ski?
If you come here primarily as a tourist you do not need a visa for incidental study as long as it is recreational.
When you get into the US don't say "I'm here to become a commercial pilot", say "I'm here on holiday but I've always fancied doing some flying lessons and I've got $10k in my pocket to give to the local flight school"
You get the drift?
The INS inspector will have a fit on the former, and drag you past the desk into the country on the latter. Remember, the INS inspector doesn't even have to let you into the coutry WITH a valid M1 visa.
What the INS guys is asking himself when you show up drunk and looking like crap after a delightful longhaul flight in World Traveller is..
1) Is this guy going to go home within 90 days?
2) Is this guy going to become a public charge? Break the law and go to jail?
3) Is this guy going to spend loadsamoney?
4) Is this guy going to put a Yank out of work?
That's all they really care about. They don't give too much of a toss about the Brits, thats why we are on the Visa Waiver scheme. Now if you were an Iraqi........
I agree entirely that if you are at all in doubt, get the visa. I said that earlier too. Just make sure you choose the flight school and have flown with the instructor in advance. Pretty hard to do I'd say from your computer terminal desk in Croyden
. What you do not want to do is get an M1 visa for "xyz flying school", find out they suck, so ****** off down the road to the really cool part 61 school. That would put you in violation of your US admission terms, and if the INS found out they would rip your goolies off. You would not find it easy to enter the US after that.
All in my opinion of course , which I am sure some here already consider worthless
Me no lawyer!Regards
[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag because I got JAA/FAA/CAA totally mixed up. We need a single authority, preferabley FAA
and I also got another smart-ass commment in too Ho Ho!)]
[ 06 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
Thread Starter
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Guys -
I started this thread for some simple advice, and I'm now more confused than ever!
Yes, I AM doing a JAA PPL, and I am NOT doing vocational training (at least not yet, now is definately not the time)...
I really need a simple answer - do I need an M1 visa or not? My flying school at Kissimmee say no, others (including flight schools who have replied to my thread) have said yes, and I've also seen every answer in between!
Frankly I think the only way to be sure is to write to the US Embassy and get a written reply from them, so that if I turn up without a visa I'll at least have a letter from the US Embassy proving that I did some homework. I realise that the INS official still has the final say, but I imagine they are there to catch people trying to avoid the regulations, not those who have made genuine efforts to comply.
If any US INS official who reads this site could give me some direct advice, from the horses mouth so to speak, I'd be grateful, but I didn't want to start a debate on the pros and cons of JAA vs FAA or one flight school vs another. This is simply about ensuring that I comply with the laws of another country and thus ensure I can have a good holiday and (hopefully) come back with a PPL ticket...
Regards
big.al
I started this thread for some simple advice, and I'm now more confused than ever!
Yes, I AM doing a JAA PPL, and I am NOT doing vocational training (at least not yet, now is definately not the time)...
I really need a simple answer - do I need an M1 visa or not? My flying school at Kissimmee say no, others (including flight schools who have replied to my thread) have said yes, and I've also seen every answer in between!
Frankly I think the only way to be sure is to write to the US Embassy and get a written reply from them, so that if I turn up without a visa I'll at least have a letter from the US Embassy proving that I did some homework. I realise that the INS official still has the final say, but I imagine they are there to catch people trying to avoid the regulations, not those who have made genuine efforts to comply.
If any US INS official who reads this site could give me some direct advice, from the horses mouth so to speak, I'd be grateful, but I didn't want to start a debate on the pros and cons of JAA vs FAA or one flight school vs another. This is simply about ensuring that I comply with the laws of another country and thus ensure I can have a good holiday and (hopefully) come back with a PPL ticket...
Regards
big.al
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Al,
Let's see if I can provide a useful summary. I'm not an immigration lawyer, or a representative of any fight schools (JAA or FAA), but I do have experience of dealing with the INS.
The first thing to remember is that the INS is a poorly resourced beaurocracy, staffed by many people who don't understand the rules properly themselves. There is always a risk that the US immigration officer meeting you at your port of entry might be having a bad day, feel ultra-cautious, or just dislike your face or clothing. [In my personal experience they are usually either very courteous and professional, or just going through the motions and don't really listen. In either case I've never had a problem.]
So you've got two options:
Get an M1 visa. This probably isn't legally necessary since PPL training falls into a grey area, but it is watertight and you shouldn't have any problems with US immigrations. The disadvantage is you have to apply for & pay for a visa, and you are then stuck with one school.
Use the visa waiver. The advantage is that it's simple and since you are entering as a tourist, you can change flight schools as often as you want. The big disadvantage is that US immigration are more likely to deny you entry, especially with the current paranoia about foreign flight students. Bluntly, if you do not look like a white Anglo-Saxon, then don't even consider this route.
So, get an M1 if you want to be safe & don't mind the restrictions, and use visa waiver if you want the flexibility and are prepared to take the risk of being denied entry.
The USA is a great place to fly, and I wish you luck with your flight training.
Let's see if I can provide a useful summary. I'm not an immigration lawyer, or a representative of any fight schools (JAA or FAA), but I do have experience of dealing with the INS.
The first thing to remember is that the INS is a poorly resourced beaurocracy, staffed by many people who don't understand the rules properly themselves. There is always a risk that the US immigration officer meeting you at your port of entry might be having a bad day, feel ultra-cautious, or just dislike your face or clothing. [In my personal experience they are usually either very courteous and professional, or just going through the motions and don't really listen. In either case I've never had a problem.]
So you've got two options:
Get an M1 visa. This probably isn't legally necessary since PPL training falls into a grey area, but it is watertight and you shouldn't have any problems with US immigrations. The disadvantage is you have to apply for & pay for a visa, and you are then stuck with one school.
Use the visa waiver. The advantage is that it's simple and since you are entering as a tourist, you can change flight schools as often as you want. The big disadvantage is that US immigration are more likely to deny you entry, especially with the current paranoia about foreign flight students. Bluntly, if you do not look like a white Anglo-Saxon, then don't even consider this route.
So, get an M1 if you want to be safe & don't mind the restrictions, and use visa waiver if you want the flexibility and are prepared to take the risk of being denied entry.
The USA is a great place to fly, and I wish you luck with your flight training.
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Big Al,
Sorry that this has turned into some xxx contest over whether you legally need a visa to come to the US to get a PPL.
I would have used a naughty adjective to describe 'contest' but the PPRUNE system already turned a perfectly decent Anglo Saxon word, used by Hugh Grant in 4 weddings & a funeral into ******
What I would do in your case is pick a school and get an M1 visa. Go to Florida, Arizona or California. Go to Airnav & look for Orlando, Falcon Field, Montgomery Field and Long Beach and call around until you find a school which sounds good. Turn up and have a great time.
Make sure you budget for more than you expect. Tax, accomodation, transport, beer (and if you are single with a Brit Accent, women) and the inevitable more hours than the schools advertise are all expensive extras.
If you need more specifics please post, I am familiar with all the above airfields except MCO.
Rainbow Aviation at LGB is a good start, but they don't do the JAA. A fellow named Singh ????? will do at the same field, LGB is a great place to learn.
Regards.
[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
Sorry that this has turned into some xxx contest over whether you legally need a visa to come to the US to get a PPL.
I would have used a naughty adjective to describe 'contest' but the PPRUNE system already turned a perfectly decent Anglo Saxon word, used by Hugh Grant in 4 weddings & a funeral into ******
What I would do in your case is pick a school and get an M1 visa. Go to Florida, Arizona or California. Go to Airnav & look for Orlando, Falcon Field, Montgomery Field and Long Beach and call around until you find a school which sounds good. Turn up and have a great time.
Make sure you budget for more than you expect. Tax, accomodation, transport, beer (and if you are single with a Brit Accent, women) and the inevitable more hours than the schools advertise are all expensive extras.
If you need more specifics please post, I am familiar with all the above airfields except MCO.
Rainbow Aviation at LGB is a good start, but they don't do the JAA. A fellow named Singh ????? will do at the same field, LGB is a great place to learn.
Regards.
[ 07 October 2001: Message edited by: slim_slag ]
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big.al,
I can tell you 100% that you need a visa. I am a school which offers the visa. I am sure that there are going to be many posts that say I am just trying to scare people onto a visa. I personally do not understand why people want to lie to the Immigration Officer to enter the U.S. and risk deportation. If you are caught training without the proper visa you could risk loosing your chance to enter the U.S. for the rest of your life. I know this is unlikely, but it is the extreme case of what could happen to you.
Several years ago, I decided to make the primary training that Naples Air Center would offer to be C.A.A. and later J.A.A. This meant a major focus on European Students. Therefore to do the training properly we needed to get authorization to issue M-1 visas. This process took years and thousands of dollars.
I currently have employees in place that issue the visas and even more employees that oversee the quality control to guarantee top performance of the program.
I know this sounds expensive, it is. I do not charge the student one penny for the M-1 visa. I get insulted when people say I am scaring students into visas. The reason I offer the M-1 because it is the right thing to do.
It is part of the way I run my school, no shortcuts. Everything is 100% by the book.
I hope that gives a definitive answer.
Sincerely,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
P.S. I had posted the M-1 visa form in another thread, the form is simple to fill out. Read the Thread on the M-1 visa here and see.
I can tell you 100% that you need a visa. I am a school which offers the visa. I am sure that there are going to be many posts that say I am just trying to scare people onto a visa. I personally do not understand why people want to lie to the Immigration Officer to enter the U.S. and risk deportation. If you are caught training without the proper visa you could risk loosing your chance to enter the U.S. for the rest of your life. I know this is unlikely, but it is the extreme case of what could happen to you.
Several years ago, I decided to make the primary training that Naples Air Center would offer to be C.A.A. and later J.A.A. This meant a major focus on European Students. Therefore to do the training properly we needed to get authorization to issue M-1 visas. This process took years and thousands of dollars.
I currently have employees in place that issue the visas and even more employees that oversee the quality control to guarantee top performance of the program.
I know this sounds expensive, it is. I do not charge the student one penny for the M-1 visa. I get insulted when people say I am scaring students into visas. The reason I offer the M-1 because it is the right thing to do.
It is part of the way I run my school, no shortcuts. Everything is 100% by the book.
I hope that gives a definitive answer.
Sincerely,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
P.S. I had posted the M-1 visa form in another thread, the form is simple to fill out. Read the Thread on the M-1 visa here and see.
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Big Al.
Just to give you some background 15 FTO's in Fl have gone bust since the 11th and alot of students have canceled course so there is a bit of hassel (may be a bit strong, more manovering) going on at the moment between the ones left. If immigration really comes down hard on the M1 visa it basically means that the majority of FTO's servicing the JAR market will go bust.
My personal opinion is that Kissimmee would be a bad idea because it is inside enhanced class B air space which will cause problems when it comes to do your solo's.
As for Richard's operation (Naples) i can only say you could do a lot worse than going there. I have just spent the afternoon with Gerard one of his instructors learning to fly the twin and if the others are half as good as him you should have no problems.
But its up to yourself if you are a born bullsh*ter and think you would have no problems bending the truth to an official you can save money by going to a none visa school. But if you want a stress free trip over pay the extra and go to a M1 school. You will usually find that if a school cuts costs in one direction that they have also cut costs in others.
If you have time send a letter to the US immigration and do as they say.
MJ
Just to give you some background 15 FTO's in Fl have gone bust since the 11th and alot of students have canceled course so there is a bit of hassel (may be a bit strong, more manovering) going on at the moment between the ones left. If immigration really comes down hard on the M1 visa it basically means that the majority of FTO's servicing the JAR market will go bust.
My personal opinion is that Kissimmee would be a bad idea because it is inside enhanced class B air space which will cause problems when it comes to do your solo's.
As for Richard's operation (Naples) i can only say you could do a lot worse than going there. I have just spent the afternoon with Gerard one of his instructors learning to fly the twin and if the others are half as good as him you should have no problems.
But its up to yourself if you are a born bullsh*ter and think you would have no problems bending the truth to an official you can save money by going to a none visa school. But if you want a stress free trip over pay the extra and go to a M1 school. You will usually find that if a school cuts costs in one direction that they have also cut costs in others.
If you have time send a letter to the US immigration and do as they say.
MJ
The Oracle
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Query,
In this thread you stated:
QUERY
Just another number
Member # 37853
posted 02 October 2001 23:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did look into this and confirmed that the visa story is an old one used, by UK flying clubs and US FAA part 141 schools, to frighten people off JAA training in the US. You do NOT need a visa for a vacation during which you are recreational flying (includes JAA PPL course)in the US unless you are doing FAA accredited training- isn't that unlikely or stupid if you are a Brit?
You are eligible for a visa waiver, just like any other European tourist, but the decision is always that of the officer at the port of entry. Is it any surprise that silly sods, who say they are student pilots or give the impression that they might want to work in the U.S., have created a problem for themselves, when there isn't one?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 67 | From: Yorks | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged
Please note a newspaper article out of the Charlotte Herald Tribune dated November 9, 2001.
I will list two small quotes but I suggest you read the entire artile.
"PUNTA GORDA -- Border Patrol agents handcuffed three Tunisian flight students Tuesday and took them away for reported immigration violations."
"The agents arrested the students for "violating immigration statutes," said Joe Mellia, assistant chief of the Miami Border Patrol office."
Be Safe,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
In this thread you stated:
QUERY
Just another number
Member # 37853
posted 02 October 2001 23:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did look into this and confirmed that the visa story is an old one used, by UK flying clubs and US FAA part 141 schools, to frighten people off JAA training in the US. You do NOT need a visa for a vacation during which you are recreational flying (includes JAA PPL course)in the US unless you are doing FAA accredited training- isn't that unlikely or stupid if you are a Brit?
You are eligible for a visa waiver, just like any other European tourist, but the decision is always that of the officer at the port of entry. Is it any surprise that silly sods, who say they are student pilots or give the impression that they might want to work in the U.S., have created a problem for themselves, when there isn't one?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posts: 67 | From: Yorks | Registered: Jul 2001 | IP: Logged
Please note a newspaper article out of the Charlotte Herald Tribune dated November 9, 2001.
I will list two small quotes but I suggest you read the entire artile.
"PUNTA GORDA -- Border Patrol agents handcuffed three Tunisian flight students Tuesday and took them away for reported immigration violations."
"The agents arrested the students for "violating immigration statutes," said Joe Mellia, assistant chief of the Miami Border Patrol office."
Be Safe,
Capt. Richard J. Gentil, Pres.
Naples Air Center, Inc.
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Just to add my two cents worth. I returned a few weeks back from completing my ppl at britannia. I did NOT bother with a visa and was not challenged by the immigration officer at all. I was worried though like you probably are as I had read earlier threads on pprune concerning the need to get a visa before I left. As it turned out I ran out of time so couldnt have gotten one in time anyway.
When I was out there a few guys at our school (and staying at the same house as me) had problems as they both put the same address on their immigration forms and when asked if they were travelling with anyone else they clearly said no as they had never met (bad luck indeedy). It all turned out okay because a simple call was made by immigration to the school who sorted out matters. The school also has a letter on immigration letterhead (I saw it!!) which categorically states that you do NOT need a visa for a ppl, irrespective of what some fine point of the law on the US embassy website says.
Mad Jock - you must have heard the same story when you were out there?
When I was out there a few guys at our school (and staying at the same house as me) had problems as they both put the same address on their immigration forms and when asked if they were travelling with anyone else they clearly said no as they had never met (bad luck indeedy). It all turned out okay because a simple call was made by immigration to the school who sorted out matters. The school also has a letter on immigration letterhead (I saw it!!) which categorically states that you do NOT need a visa for a ppl, irrespective of what some fine point of the law on the US embassy website says.
Mad Jock - you must have heard the same story when you were out there?
